Jesus is God?... or not? When & how did you first find

[AHIMSA]

Nevertheless may I ask how you arrived at your conclusions. Were you brought up to believe these things in a family or 'church' environment or have you come to your own conclusions without these influences.

I was brought up to believe certain things about Jesus and God (I was Catholic) Overtime, over personal struggles, after reading and researching and looking into the religions of the world, I came to my conclusions on my own through the grace of God.

I am not saying either way, whether Jesus is God or not. My personal spirituality says that God is met through the person of Jesus, that he could of said " I am God", and on certain levels that would be perfectly true. Jesus, I believe, became the Son of God, the third person of the Trinity, and he was so revealled to be an emanation of God. Yet I do not restrict this to Jesus, this is the potential and fulfillment of all humanity, we can all become God's Son or Daughter, in fact, that is what we are, we have only allowed that truth to become hidden. One day too we can stand and I say "I am".

So, Jesus is God, but he also isn't. The Trinity exists, but also, it does not.

 

[AHIMSA]

Vic,

I'm looking at Deut. 6:4

"The Lord our God, the Lord is one."
or "The Lord our God is one Lord"
or "The Lord is our God, the Lord is one"
or "The Lord is our God, the Lord alone"

not quite what you have here

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our Gods (plural) is Jehovah a unity."

What translation is that?

Secondly Godhead does not mean trinity. It simply refers to the nature of God (which to Christians today, is a trinity), and the term was used before the idea of the trinity and other religions, such as Islam and Judaism, still refer to the "Godhead" without any trinitarian impications.

A. The Hebrew word Elohim (translated "God" in Genesis 1:1) actually indicates more than
one divine personality. This same plural form is used over 2,500 times in the Old Testament.

B. In the account of creation recorded in the book of Genesis God speaks plurally of His
own Person.

There is a much more probable explanations for this. When the majority of the Old Testament was written, other gods were still seen to be in existence. Thus when he says "Let us create man in our image" he is speaking of the divine council of gods that are echoed in other pre-genesis literature. Thus, humanity was made in the image of the divine. Genesis was revolutionary in that it seeked to rob those gods of their authority and power by presenting the Hebrew god as the one that created and ruled over everything. Naturally, these gods eventually faded from all mention. Notice how the first command is that "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

If the Hebrews were actually worshipping other gods to the extent that the first commandment is to forbid it, you can be sure that the authors of the bible believed in the existence of those other gods, but also in the superioriry of Yahweh.

 

[Klee shay]

Re: Jesus is God?... or not? When & how did you first f

On the issue of the trinity, were you taught it?

Yes, I was taught it through the various different churches I frequented as a kid. Funnily enough however, it was only just a recent discovery that trinity actually involved the concept that Jesus is God. Either I wasn't listening hard enough in church or it wasn't taught properly but I always perceived the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate even though they were one.

So to be completely honest, I did learn about trinity through church but apparently only got half the message, LOL.

Were you brought up to accept it?

In as much as I didn't even know it was to be questioned. When you're taught that this is the one, true God (Jesus, HS and God) you believe it out of fear of denying God.

I still believe in Jesus, HS and God but not as one God.

Were you told that belief in the trinity was necessary for salvation?

Yep.

Did you become a Christian and then find out about it?

Having been raised a Christian it's fair to say that I learned it at the same time. So there was no "before" knowing for me. :wink:

And for those who don’t adhere to the trinity, how and when was your belief formed?

Actually I'd have to say I'm going the opposite way now. Having learned the man-made doctrines (not all of them, mind) but enough to confuse me, LOL, I'm going back to learn God's will as revealed by his Son, Jesus.

When my study began I was offended by the truth at first, because it did away with everything I had hung my beliefs on. In the face of this big question mark over my faith however, I was tempted to reject God outright because of my offence...

But I couldn't reject God in the end; it was a far greater thing to reject my own understanding of God instead. "...If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow ME." MATTHEW 16:24

This is the ultimate test of faith I'm still in the process of learning. :wink:

 

[mutzrein]

Although I first learned the Trinity from a Baptist member of a church, I discovered that Jesus was God while reading The Bible for myself. I won't repeat the verses that convinced me, as I have posted them before. As I have stated many times before, I am not here to convince those of you who don't believe Jesus is God, but rather to tell what I believe and why I believe it. That is all I can do. :-D

Thankyou Christine

It's good to get such a candid response and I appreciate what you have said regarding not being here to convince people. I suppose to many, some of these key issues are so essential to their faith that they feel it is necessary to correct those who think otherwise. While for me, acceptance or denial of the trinity does not qualify or disqualify a person from salvation, I seek also to convey what I believe and why.

May I ask, do you think that a correct understanding (whichever way you see it) is necessary for salvation?

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks Vic

You're a gentleman. I'll check out the DianeD link. Thanks too for your other supporting references.

May I ask you too, do you hold to the view that belief in the trinity is necessary for salvation?

 

[Imagican]

Mutz,

I think you offer an astute point. As I have stated previous on numerous threads concerning 'trinity', there is NO way that one can accept the doctrine 'without' being 'taught' it. Since it is a 'purely' man-made doctrine, the ONLY way ANYONE would even KNOW THE WORD would be for 'someone' to 'teach' it to them. Since this word does NOT EVEN EXIST in scripture, it is IMPOSSIBLE that anyone could even know of it's EXISTENCE without being 'told' of it.

This being the case, I find it utterly amazing that one who 'accepts' it could state that it plays ANY part of salvation. We have been told what it takes to receive the 'gift'. 'Trinity' plays NO part in what we have been TOLD through the Word.

Makes one wonder WHY those that accept it are so adamant in the 'spreading' of it. WHY are they so insistent that others MUST accept it in order to receive salvation. It's almost like alcoholics that 'push' others to 'drink with them'. They are unhappy in their addiction unless they can somehow find other to 'share' it with them.

I am accusing NO ONE of ANYTHING. Simply offering a little 'food for thought'. It is amazing that someone could tell me that I CAN'T receive Christ into my heart without accept a man-made doctrine that has NEVER been mentioned by God Christ or the any of the apostles.

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks Vic

You're a gentleman. I'll check out the DianeD link. Thanks too for your other supporting references.

May I ask you too, do you hold to the view that belief in the trinity is necessary for salvation?

Thanks Mutz.

I believe verses such as John 1:29, John 3:16, John 14:6 and most of John, not because I was taught them, but because John does an excellent job of detailing the true nature of Jesus. Right down to the beginning passage of his book, to verses like John John 8:58, 10:30 and just about ch.14. What I get from John is that Jesus is truely Divine. I believe in His divinity. Whether it be Oneness, Binartarian (sp?) or Trinitarian is a matter of personal belief to me. I believe in a triune nature because I see evidence of this mystery all throughout Scripture. We see throughout the OT where revelation came through Himself, the Messenger of the Lord and through His Spirit.

Do I believe a belief in the Trinity is essential to salvation? Let me say this: I do believe that believing in the Deity of Jesus IS essential to the Christian Faith. After all, who but God Himself can forgive sin?

This is for anyone who may be interested:

The Truth of The Holy Trinity and The Concept of the Trinity: Greek Termenology For Hebrew Concepts

http://www.geocities.com/metagetics/trinity1.htm

 

[gingercat]

After all, who but God Himself can forgive sin?

Because His Father gave His Son, Jesus gave right to forgive our sins.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

I have a question:

When you (who don't beleive Jesus is God) say Jesus is the Son of God, what does this entail?

What does it mean to be the Son of God?

 

[Vic C.]

+JMJ+

I have a question:

When you (who don't beleive Jesus is God) say Jesus is the Son of God, what does this entail?

What does it mean to be the Son of God?

That is a fair question... thanks.

This was not meant to be a debate thread, though some wish to debate anyway. I hope this os ok with you, Mutz.

To add to SFW's question, what did it mean when Jesus called Himself The Son of Man?

 

[gingercat]

What does it mean to be the Son of God?

It is simple; Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for us.

 

[Vic C.]

After all, who but God Himself can forgive sin?

Because His Father gave His Son, Jesus gave right to forgive our sins.

What does it mean to be the Son of God?

It is simple; Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for us.

Could you give us verses showing how and why your responses answer our questions? Thanks.

 

[Imagican]

+JMJ+

I have a question:

When you (who don't beleive Jesus is God) say Jesus is the Son of God, what does this entail?

What does it mean to be the Son of God?

Fulton,

Christ is certainly devine. He IS the Son of God, the ONLY begotten of the Father. He is second ONLY to the Father, God Himself. For Christ stated Himself that His power CAME FROM the Father. Much power was bestowed upon Him and He IS an Heir to the Father and has been given a 'throne' by the Father.

And let us NOT forget what Christ accomplished by following the Will of God. I would imagine that as a 'father' myself, God MUST have taken GREAT pride in the perseverance of His Son. Only adding to His stature and power.

But, regardless of 'trinity' or oneness or any other doctrine of man, Christ stated IN THE WORD that He IS the Son of God. This CANNOT be denied. And the ONLY reason that I can see that one would insist that Jesus IS God would be to worship Him AS God. WHY? What is wrong with worshipping Christ as EXACTLY WHO He stated that He IS? He IS the intercessor. How could one be both? The intercessor and the 'Sender' of the intercessor? For, if Christ is NOTHING more than God in the flesh, the name intercessor would NOT even exist. And what would be the purpose of THE CHRIST being called, 'the Christ' to begin with if He were none other than God Himself?

I still like to point out that the Jew's, God's CHOSEN people knew and know NOTHING of this 'three person God'. They were WAITING on the Messiah and KNEW that this Savior would be a 'separate' entity from the Father Himself. Why would this have been 'hidden' from God's CHOSEN people? This in itself offers a pretty heavy dose of 'proof' that 'trinity' was created by 'man' instead of revealed of God.

 

[Imagican]

Nice post Klee,

I would imagine that it would be VERY difficult to come to the conclusion that what you had based your faith on could be wrong or misled. There are many in many different situations 'right now' that are too weak to even consider what they have been taught. I admire what you have offered and hope that it can be of sound witness to others that one CAN be led in the wrong direction and alter their course. Or just the opposite. The important thing is to keep ones mind and heart open to the Spirit and try their best to learn the truth through this instead of following other men.

 

[gingercat]

After all, who but God Himself can forgive sin?

Because His Father gave His Son, Jesus gave right to forgive our sins.

What does it mean to be the Son of God?

It is simple; Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for us.

Could you give us verses showing how and why your responses answer our questions? Thanks.

Vic,

Klee did good job explaining them. I understand the Bible with the whole context and I don't have a just take a pick type of interpreting.

 

[Imagican]

In your defense Vic, gingercat, Vic is a VERY learned individual as far as scripture is concerned. I wholly accept his knowledge and understanding.

'Trinity' is a very complex issue and one that is certainly capable of raising a bit of passion in the 'best of us'.

But ginger, you can rest assured that Vic is NOT a 'pick and chooser'.

Since I believe 'trinity' can only be accepted or even known by being 'taught' it, it may at times seem as if those that choose to follow it are 'forced' to 'pick and choose'. But the truth of the matter is that it is VERY easy to accept teachings and 'see' much to back it up whether it is the 'truth' or not. Hence, the capability of their being SO many different denominations. Obviously there were those that saw a 'different' truth and found ways, (scripture), to 'back it up' and taught this to others.

 

[mutzrein]

+JMJ+

I have a question:

When you (who don't beleive Jesus is God) say Jesus is the Son of God, what does this entail?

What does it mean to be the Son of God?

That is a fair question... thanks.

This was not meant to be a debate thread, though some wish to debate anyway. I hope this os ok with you, Mutz.

To add to SFW's question, what did it mean when Jesus called Himself The Son of Man?

Yeah Vic - that's fine with me. Thanks for asking tho. I don't mind the debate at all. Fire away and I will chime in a little later as time is against me now.

Cheers

 

[mutzrein]

After all, who but God Himself can forgive sin?

Because His Father gave His Son, Jesus gave right to forgive our sins.

Vic

I note you have questioned gingercat over this response. Do you not accept that God has put all things under Jesus feet? So all authority has been given to the Son by the Father.

 

[Klee shay]

+JMJ+

I have a question:

When you (who don't beleive Jesus is God) say Jesus is the Son of God, what does this entail?

What does it mean to be the Son of God?

Great question FSW! :D

I don't believe Jesus is God in as much as God hasn't revealed it to mankind in those terms. Jesus referred to Himself as both the Son of Man and the Son of God while he was living, and likewise, God declared before the world that Jesus was His Son also.

What this simply entails is trusting God's own testimony that man was to receive and believe Jesus as His Son.

What does it mean to be the Son of God; I imagine a huge responsibility to represent one's own Father with love, loyality, obedience and trust. Jesus demonstrated that he loved His Father by obeying His commands, he showed his loyality by remaining true to His Father when tempted by hardened hearts, he obeyed everything His Father asked him to say and do - and lastly on the cross, trusting that God would raise him up as promised; after he suffered at the hands of man and was killed.

 

[Klee shay]

Nice post Klee,

I would imagine that it would be VERY difficult to come to the conclusion that what you had based your faith on could be wrong or misled.

You know the greatest challenge which came directly afterwards was to keep my heart open to continue receiving God's knowledge. I've hardened it once before with one doctrine, and every day since I keep reminding myself not to get comfortable in what I know or think I know differently. :wink:

It's God knowledge or it's false knowledge. I keep searching for Him.