Sothenes said:
Imagican said:
No Thess, my God DID create the UNIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT, including His ONLY Begotten Son, my Lord, Jesus Christ.
It's amazing how much information that I have offered concerning the Catholic Church attempting to DESTROY all who were 'true' Saints in order to spread their 'own' doctrine, only to have those that will 'still' insist that 'their' doctrine is the 'truth'.
Thess, Paul did NOT lie. There have ALWAYS been a 'few' who were NOT willing to surcome to the Catholic doctrine regardless of their power and influence over the masses. Most that were willing to 'speak out' were either tortured into submission or outright murdered, but there were always those 'behind the spotlight' that continued to spread the 'true' message.
We can't move on, Imagician, until (1) you deal with my reasoning that Jesus wasn't created and (2) several hundreds of years passed between the Council of Nicea and the Reformation which means you are interpreting what happened in the days that the Council of Nicea existed from the latter Middle Ages which is a confused way to look at things historically because hundreds of years had passed and everything was different. The first Crusade was launced in 1096 A.D. which was many years after the Council of Nicea so I think your claims need more evidence because your history needs supporting.
Ok Soth,
I thought that I had already 'dealt' with your reasoning behind your belief that Jesus IS God and that He WASN'T created. I thought that I had already shown 'through scripture' that Jesus WAS created BY GOD. But since you would like to go over this again. I certainly have the patience and wish to help those that don't understand a 'better' insight into what the Bible offers through the Word of God offered to us by His Son Himself.
This is MY SON in whom I am well pleased. Please explain to me how Jesus COULD POSSIBLY be the Son of God without God 'creating' Him.
What Christ offered was NOT His own words but those GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER.
Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do.
Father, not MY will but thine be done.
Not the angels nor even the Son Himself knows of the time but the Father ONLY knows this answer.
The FIRSTBORN of every creature.
NO ONE can go to the Father EXCEPT through The Son.
Now, Soth, these are only a few of the points that we've already been through. I am no more willing to accept your offerings than you seem to be to mine. This is no surprise. But, we have TONS of evidence that Christ was created BY God, FOR God. Just as we were created by Christ, FOR Christ. My understanding of the Word is NOTHING new. It has been debated throughout the history of Christianity. The biggest problem that YOU would have to confront in order to defend YOUR view is that YOUR view didn't exist until hundreds of years AFTER Christ's death.
Neither God, His Son NOR the apostles taught 'trinity' or that Jesus WAS God. THEY KNEW better. They KNEW Him AS the Son of God. For there to be a SON, there MUST be a Father. Therefore, my father was in essence MY CREATOR. For it was through HIS SEED that I came to this earth.
What you have 'bought into' is some mystical voodoo type God that totally contradicts what has been offered by GOD HIMSELF, HIS SON, the APOSTLES, and the Holy Spirit. Some 'three headed' god that you are forced to explain as a 'mystery' for you don't even understand what you believe. You can 'say' that Jesus IS God and that the Holy Spirit IS God and that God IS GOD. But, when asked to explain the "HOW" of it, it basically comes down to; "well, you know, it's kind of like an ice cube". or "you know how a computer is..............." Come on, my friend. Think of how utterly ridiculous it sounds to one that KNOWS God to compare Him to an ice cube or a computer.
So, I guess we just can't 'go on' any further, for I am perfectly convinced that God is the Father of Christ. I have EVEN OFFERED SCRIPTURE that STATES this and it was COMPLETELY ignored by EVERY 'trinitarian' that has participated in this post and the other concerning 'trinity'. 1 Peter remember?
I have met people that believe in aliens from other planets. I have met people that believe in ancient creatures that they think 'still' roam this earth. So, it comes as NO surprise that there have been those, and still are, that create their 'own' gods. We were told that this happened since time immortal and that it would continue to happen until this earth NO LONGER exists as we know it now.
But you know what, I could no more convince these that they are wrong any more than I can convince you to believe something 'different' than what you have accepted into your heart. No amount of 'proof', no amount of evidence, no amount of scripture is going to convince ANYONE that believes in Beni Hindi or is it going to turn them away from what they have accepted into their heart. For there WILL be those that CHOOSE to follow a lie, and for these, God will offer strong delusion so that they will believe this lie.
We were warned by Paul that there would come a time that there would be those that would worship the creation MORE than the Creator. I, for one, believe this is EXACTLY what the teaching of Christ AS God has done. Teaching that the Son, created BY the Father, (God), was changed into God Himself. Thus, it has been proven that the teachings of Paul were DIRECTLY given to him by the Spirit. His prophecy IS the 'truth' for the evidence of it's fulfillment is manifest 'right before our very eyes'.
I, Soth, have 'created' NOTHING. I accept the Word as offered and only ask that God direct my steps and understanding. I TOTALLY reject the teachings of men that would insist that I must follow them instead of God. I beg daily for forgiveness and that I be led by the Spirit INSTEAD of my measly, fleshly understanding. I have 'bought into' NOTHING other than that offered to me by God through His Word.
This is apparent to ANYONE that has read and has even the most basic of understanding concerning the Word. Yet what you offer is nothing other than the teachings of men that would have and DID at times destroy those sent to offer the Word. That you find what I say offensive only goes to prove that you have little wish to follow the truth and choose rather to follow MEN. For, where there SHOULD be love and understanding, I see a perpetual insistence that if I don't follow YOUR beliefs, that I am the enemy and an heretic. Only going to show that those that believe in this manner are 'their OWN gods; able to decide my fate as if THEY are the judges of the world instead of Christ through the power of God.
Soth, always remember ONE THING and it will guide the rest of a quest for the truth. Christ did not come to save those that 'don't need to be saved', those that are 'righteous', but sinners instead. No need for a doctor if one is NOT sick, remember? As it is pointed out that it's almost impossible for a 'rich man' to enter heaven, so it is with those that simply 'play the game'. For they don't truly understand a NEED for Christ but follow others in 'their game' that offers them the security of 'fitting in'. Without an understanding of LOVE, it is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE to KNOW GOD. NO, not a COMPLETE understanding, for it is unlikely that any but a very few will ever come close to this amount of understanding. But a rudimentary understanding IS possible.
Have you ever read that we are told to be 'perfect'? Have you ever read in the Word that we can be 'perfect'? I will await your reply to these two questions.
Soth, if I DON'T accept Jesus Christ AS God, does this mean that God DOES NOT LOVE ME? If I reject your 'trinity', does this mean that I reject God? If I give ALL that I own, EVEN THOUGH IT BE LITTLE, does that mean that it will be rejected as 'not good enough'? Do me and everyone that reads this a favor and start your reply by answering these questions FIRST.
