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Jesus Is God: Part 1

You stated two different things.

I don’t need a survey to see that, Butch.




JLB
No I didn't. Moralism is one God manifesting himself as three personas. At one time he is the father another the son. That's not three persons
 
Who is the Helper, the Holy Spirit?

"7Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
Sorrow Will Turn to Joy
16“A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”
17Then some of His disciples said among themselves, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” 18They said therefore, “What is this that He says, ‘A little while’? We do not know what He is saying.”
19Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, “Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’? 20Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy. 21A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.
23“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
Jesus Christ Has Overcome the World
25“These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. " NKJV John 16:7-25

Here Jesus speaks of the Helper, the Spirit of Truth. After telling all that he will do, Jesus says to the disciples that Hes been speaking to them in figurative language of the Father but the time is coming when He will speak to then plainly. Jesus is saying here that the Helper, the spirit of Truth, is the Father. It's not a third person, it's the Father. Here we have it from Jesus' own words. The question is, will we believe it or argue for a 5th century doctrine?
 

John 1:1​

1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 14:28 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 17:1-5​

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Read full chapter

Love, Walter

Also:

John 16:1:1-33

Jesus' Warning

(Acts 23:12-22)

1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

The Holy Spirit Promised

(Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; Acts 2:1-13; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)

5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

The Disciples' Grief will Turn to Joy

17Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? 18They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. 19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? 20Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. 21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. 22And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

Ask and You will Receive

23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. 30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. 31Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? 32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Love, Walter

Hi again, Walter.

If you could, identify for me what points you are wanting to make through the above passages of scripture. I'm kinda caught up in several things lately and I might not fully understand what it is you are trying to argue unless you were to state it clearly.

God bless, and thanks for your courtesy.
- H
 
The problem with this post is that Jesus is talking to someone else. If that someone else is God, then how is Jesus?

Hello, Butch.

I get these types of arguments quite often, but don't understand how they refute the doctrine of the Trinity. Trinitarians hold to the teaching that the Father and the Son are two separate Individuals.

God bless,
- H
 
Hello, Butch.

I get these types of arguments quite often, but don't understand how they refute the doctrine of the Trinity. Trinitarians hold to the teaching that the Father and the Son are two separate Individuals.

God bless,
- H
Right, but they say they are one God. Then they refuse to answer the question of what that one God is. They refer to that one God as He. This indicates that this one God is a living being. So when faced with the question, how is this being called one God composed of three other beings or persons they have no answer.
 
No I didn't. Moralism is one God manifesting himself as three personas. At one time he is the father another the son. That's not three persons


These three are one is biblical.

This one is three is not.



JLB
 
You did. When Jesus rose He said all authority was given to Him. Before that it was the Father who had all authority. Paul tells us that when the end comes Christ will hand the Kingdom back to the Father and be subject once again to Him.


What is your point?
 
The whole concept of a Triune God is put to bed by Jesus. Jesus said that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit is the Father.


Do you have scripture for this statement?


If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever. John 14:15-16


That’s three.

I
The Father
Another Helper





JLB
 
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The point of having multiple witnesses is that they agree, not that they are one being.
If man needs 2 or 3 to judge anyone or to establish a testimony by His words, then how does God do it? If man cannot bear testimony of himself or else a false witness, John 5:31 then how can God?
The whole concept of a Triune God is put to bed by Jesus. Jesus said that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit is the Father.
How is that when the Father sends the Comforter John 14:25-26 The Father gives the promise at our salvation moment when we knock at the door of Jesus Christ Luke 11:9-13 Kind of easy to say the Father gives Himself, but that is not what was written.

Indeed, John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." testify to more than just the Holy Spirit dwelling in us too when saved. This is a testimony from the Triune God in us that we are saved.
There aren't three there are two. The early Christians knew this and it's reflected in their creeds. It's not until the 5th century that we see this concept of a three in one God. I find it hard to believe that a doctrine that appears 350 years after the apostles is somehow a Biblical doctrine. If it was we'd see it long before the 5th century. As I've already pointed out, Paul said to the Corinthians, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. He didn't say there is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 is a warning that we can grieve the holy Spirit. And John 14:26 has Jesus telling us the father will send the comforter Whose job is to teach and remind whatever Jesus has said unto us. Reads as a separate Person in that Godhead to me.
 
No I didn't. Moralism is one God manifesting himself as three personas. At one time he is the father another the son. That's not three persons


This thread topic is — Jesus is God.


Do you believe Jesus is God?





JLB
 
Jesus is saying here that the Helper, the spirit of Truth, is the Father.

No Butch. The Helper, The Comforter is the Holy Spirit.


If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever. John 14:15-16


That’s three.

I
The Father
Another Helper




JLB
 
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.


Jesus joined His Father on the throne and is seated at the right hand of God. The Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth was sent to lead us and guide us into all truth, and teach us all things.



JLB
 
Hi again, Walter.

If you could, identify for me what points you are wanting to make through the above passages of scripture. I'm kinda caught up in several things lately and I might not fully understand what it is you are trying to argue unless you were to state it clearly.

God bless, and thanks for your courtesy.
- H
Hi Hidden In Him, I'm saying what Jesus said to Peter after Peter said that He is Christ the Son of the living God:

Matthew 16:13-17


13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
 
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Hi Hidden In Him, I'm saying what Jesus said to Peter after Peter said that He is Christ the Son of the living God:

Matthew 16:13-17​

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Ok. Yes, I agree. A sister posted another thread elsewhere on this passage and a few others that suggested the knowledge that Jesus was in fact God was divinely revealed like in this passage, and not something made readily available to people by the Lord during His earthly ministry.
 
Ok. Yes, I agree. A sister posted another thread elsewhere on this passage and a few others that suggested the knowledge that Jesus was in fact God was divinely revealed like in this passage, and not something made readily available to people by the Lord during His earthly ministry.
Yes I understand what you are saying, it is also my understanding that:

John 1:1


1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 
Hello, Butch.

I get these types of arguments quite often, but don't understand how they refute the doctrine of the Trinity. Trinitarians hold to the teaching that the Father and the Son are two separate Individuals.

God bless,
- H
Let me ask you, when you say, Jesus is God, what does that mean?
 
Do you have scripture for this statement?


If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever. John 14:15-16


That’s three.

I
The Father
Another Helper





JLB
Yes, I gave it in post 202
 
Please explain.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


This one is three is Modalism.





JLB
 
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