Jesus Is God: Part 1

[JLB]

He hung bled and died, He was flesh and blood

He “became” flesh.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14





JLB

 

[JLB]

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13



“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13


Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6








JLB

 

[Butch5]

You may find at this link some extra biblical references cited as far back as 200 A.D. regarding the three are one. This site proved that 1 John 5:7 in the KJV regarding the 3 Witnesses in Heaven was originally scripture.

IS 1 JOHN 5:7 NOT IN ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPT BEFORE THE 1600S? IF IT IS TRUE, WHY IS IT IN THE KJV?

​

200 AD	Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD	Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD	Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD	Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD	Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD	Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD	Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD	Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are: A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven" B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.] C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]

I don't think this proves 1 John 5:7 is Scripture. Firstly, I would submit that those references to the three being one don't mean what many Christians think they mean. The modern Trinity doctrine claims that there is one God and "He" consists of three persons. That in itself is a logical contradiction. However, many, if not most, mean this when they say one God in three persons. Tertullian is credited with coining the term Trinity as it pertains to God and Tertullian argued that the Father and the Son are two separate beings, not one.

Even if we allow for 1 John 5:7 being original or doesn't prove the modern concept of a God who consists of three persons. If we look at 1 John 5:8 we see that John speaks of three witnesses which agree in one. So, we see that the context of these two verses is unity, not number. So, saying the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, simply points to unity, not number. It's saying they are unified, not that they are the same being.

In Addition to this we have the testimony of the early church. The Nicene Creed states that Jesus is God out of God. This shows us that they are two separate beings. Jesus came out of God. Jesus Himself also said this in John 8:42.


"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me"

The passage literally says, 'I proceeded forth and came out of God'.

 

[Butch5]

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13



“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13


Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6








JLB

Our God and savior could refer to two persons. Alpha and Omega is applied to both the Father and the Son depending whose ruling.

 

[Butch5]

God the Son; The Son of God

Not who, what. If you say Jesus is God what is that? What does it mean?

 

[JLB]

The modern Trinity doctrine claims that there is one God and "He" consists of three persons.

Actually that’s not true.

What you just described is Modalism.

 

[JLB]

Our God and savior could refer to two persons. Alpha and Omega is applied to both the Father and the Son depending whose ruling.

Please use scripture to make your point.

 

[Butch5]

Actually that’s not true.

What you just described is Modalism.

It is true. Do a survey of Christians and see if that's not what they say.

 

[JLB]

Our God and savior could refer to two persons. Alpha and Omega is applied to both the Father and the Son depending whose ruling.

God is Spirit.


But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

 

[JLB]

It is true. Do a survey of Christians and see if that's not what they say.

I said what you just described in Modalism.

 

[Butch5]

Please use scripture to make your point.

You did. When Jesus rose He said all authority was given to Him. Before that it was the Father who had all authority. Paul tells us that when the end comes Christ will hand the Kingdom back to the Father and be subject once again to Him.

 

[Butch5]

God is Spirit.


But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

Well, spirit means wind or breath, so what does that make God?

 

[Butch5]

I said what you just described in Modalism.

I know. Most argue that it's not. They say there are three persons and these are one God. I've spoken to, many, many Christians. I've yet to have one give me an understandably explanation of what they are espousing. They just say there are three persons in one God.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

So then what is Jesus?

Colossians 1


​

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

 

[Golgotha]

I don't think this proves 1 John 5:7 is Scripture. Firstly, I would submit that those references to the three being one don't mean what many Christians think they mean. The modern Trinity doctrine claims that there is one God and "He" consists of three persons. That in itself is a logical contradiction. However, many, if not most, mean this when they say one God in three persons. Tertullian is credited with coining the term Trinity as it pertains to God and Tertullian argued that the Father and the Son are two separate beings, not one.

Even if we allow for 1 John 5:7 being original or doesn't prove the modern concept of a God who consists of three persons. If we look at 1 John 5:8 we see that John speaks of three witnesses which agree in one. So, we see that the context of these two verses is unity, not number. So, saying the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, simply points to unity, not number. It's saying they are unified, not that they are the same being.

In Addition to this we have the testimony of the early church. The Nicene Creed states that Jesus is God out of God. This shows us that they are two separate beings. Jesus came out of God. Jesus Himself also said this in John 8:42.

"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me"

The passage literally says, 'I proceeded forth and came out of God'.

Have you ever considered how God ask men to have 2 or 3 witnesses to judge anyone or to establish a testimony? Deuteronomy 17:6 & Deuteronomy 19:15

This is carried over into the N.T. still. Jesus said it in Matthew 18:16 & Paul said it in 2 Corinthians 13:1 For the operations of the gifts, 2 or 3 speak in tongues or prophesy while one interprets or judge per 1 Corinthians 14:27-31 to establish a testimony.

Does this apply to God? Yes. Jesus said He could not testify of Himself; John 5:31

So how can God testify of Himself as a One Person God?

To be a true witness, you have to testify of another in seeking the glory of another. John 7:18 & Proverbs 27:2

To establish a testimony to be true, we as men need at least two witnesses. John 8:17

What God commands of men, so will He do which tells us He is the Triune God.

Here is the prophesy in Isaiah where God the Redeemer is speaking but yet the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

That was what Jesus meant to fulfill all righteousness as the God's witness from Heaven fulfilled that prophesy of the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him, God the Son, the Redeemer.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So the Three Witnesses in Heaven of 1 John 5:7 belongs because if you take it out, readers are left with the question of how God's witness from Heaven can be greater than the witness of men in the earth? By His words, if God was a One Person God, then the many men's witnesses on the earth would be greater than God's witness.

So 1 John 5:7 belongs originally in scripture for verse 9 to be make sense to be true.

So in Genesis 1:26 when the request to create man after our image and after our likeness was made, that was the Word of God asking the father for permission and then as the Triune God, man was created in His image and after His likeness as Two Witnesses in Heaven with the Word of God, established that testimony in creation.

In Genesis 11:5-9 The Lord made a request " let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." and so the Lord scatter them again as the Triune God for how God judged the people.

So what God commands of men to have two or three witnesses to judge any one as well as to establish a testimony, so does the Three Witnesses within the One God do.

God commands men not to judge any one or go by one witness in anything so that speaks to God as the Three witnesses within the One God too.

 

[JLB]

They say there are three persons and these are one God.

That is different than what you said before.


These three are one is biblical.


One God in three persons is Modalism.

 

[Butch5]

Have you ever considered how God ask men to have 2 or 3 witnesses to judge anyone or to establish a testimony? Deuteronomy 17:6 & Deuteronomy 19:15

This is carried over into the N.T. still. Jesus said it in Matthew 18:16 & Paul said it in 2 Corinthians 13:1 For the operations of the gifts, 2 or 3 speak in tongues or prophesy while one interprets or judge per 1 Corinthians 14:27-31 to establish a testimony.

Does this apply to God? Yes. Jesus said He could not testify of Himself; John 5:31

So how can God testify of Himself as a One Person God?

To be a true witness, you have to testify of another in seeking the glory of another. John 7:18 & Proverbs 27:2

To establish a testimony to be true, we as men need at least two witnesses. John 8:17

What God commands of men, so will He do which tells us He is the Triune God.

Here is the prophesy in Isaiah where God the Redeemer is speaking but yet the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

That was what Jesus meant to fulfill all righteousness as the God's witness from Heaven fulfilled that prophesy of the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him, God the Son, the Redeemer.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So the Three Witnesses in Heaven of 1 John 5:7 belongs because if you take it out, readers are left with the question of how God's witness from Heaven can be greater than the witness of men in the earth? By His words, if God was a One Person God, then the many men's witnesses on the earth would be greater than God's witness.

So 1 John 5:7 belongs originally in scripture for verse 9 to be make sense to be true.

So in Genesis 1:26 when the request to create man after our image and after our likeness was made, that was the Word of God asking the father for permission and then as the Triune God, man was created in His image and after His likeness as Two Witnesses in Heaven with the Word of God, established that testimony in creation.

In Genesis 11:5-9 The Lord made a request " let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." and so the Lord scatter them again as the Triune God for how God judged the people.

So what God commands of men to have two or three witnesses to judge any one as well as to establish a testimony, so does the Three Witnesses within the One God do.

God commands men not to judge any one or go by one witness in anything so that speaks to God as the Three witnesses within the One God too.

The point of having multiple witnesses is that they agree, not that they are one being.

The whole concept of a Triune God is put to bed by Jesus. Jesus said that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit is the Father. There aren't three there are two. The early Christians knew this and it's reflected in their creeds. It's not until the 5th century that we see this concept of a three in one God. I find it hard to believe that a doctrine that appears 350 years after the apostles is somehow a Biblical doctrine. If it was we'd see it long before the 5th century. As I've already pointed out, Paul said to the Corinthians, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. He didn't say there is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

That is different than what you said before.


These three are one is biblical.


One God in three persons is Modalism.

Its not different. Do a survey just in this thread and see.

 

[JLB]

Have you ever considered how God ask men to have 2 or 3 witnesses to judge anyone or to establish a testimony? Deuteronomy 17:6 & Deuteronomy 19:15

This is carried over into the N.T. still. Jesus said it in Matthew 18:16 & Paul said it in 2 Corinthians 13:1 For the operations of the gifts, 2 or 3 speak in tongues or prophesy while one interprets or judge per 1 Corinthians 14:27-31 to establish a testimony.

Does this apply to God? Yes. Jesus said He could not testify of Himself; John 5:31

So how can God testify of Himself as a One Person God?

To be a true witness, you have to testify of another in seeking the glory of another. John 7:18 & Proverbs 27:2

To establish a testimony to be true, we as men need at least two witnesses. John 8:17

What God commands of men, so will He do which tells us He is the Triune God.

Here is the prophesy in Isaiah where God the Redeemer is speaking but yet the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

That was what Jesus meant to fulfill all righteousness as the God's witness from Heaven fulfilled that prophesy of the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him, God the Son, the Redeemer.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So the Three Witnesses in Heaven of 1 John 5:7 belongs because if you take it out, readers are left with the question of how God's witness from Heaven can be greater than the witness of men in the earth? By His words, if God was a One Person God, then the many men's witnesses on the earth would be greater than God's witness.

So 1 John 5:7 belongs originally in scripture for verse 9 to be make sense to be true.

So in Genesis 1:26 when the request to create man after our image and after our likeness was made, that was the Word of God asking the father for permission and then as the Triune God, man was created in His image and after His likeness as Two Witnesses in Heaven with the Word of God, established that testimony in creation.

In Genesis 11:5-9 The Lord made a request " let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." and so the Lord scatter them again as the Triune God for how God judged the people.

So what God commands of men to have two or three witnesses to judge any one as well as to establish a testimony, so does the Three Witnesses within the One God do.

God commands men not to judge any one or go by one witness in anything so that speaks to God as the Three witnesses within the One God too.

Amen.


Whenever the OT prophets would say “thus says the Lord” it was the Spirit of Christ speaking through them


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11



Im sure we all agree that the Lord of the Old Testament is God.



Jesus Christ is Lord!






JLB

 

[JLB]

Its not different. Do a survey just in this thread and see.

You stated two different things.

I don’t need a survey to see that, Butch.




JLB