Jesus Is God: Part 1

[JLB]

My point is that some terms can apply to either the Father or the Son depending on who is ruling at the time.

Great.

Yes, I gave it in post 202

Then you agree. Great.

 

[christian1724]

If man needs 2 or 3 to judge anyone or to establish a testimony by His words, then how does God do it? If man cannot bear testimony of himself or else a false witness, John 5:31 then how can God?

What an interesting set of verses there.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge (distinguish): and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true (reliable).
John 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. ]

Jesus is able to hear the Truth (Word of God). Truth is reliable (and therefore requires no acknowledgement or witness).​

It appears that Jesus is saying that God requires no witness/acknowledgement, but, being incarnate, Jesus does not attribute to Himself (apart from God) that pureness of Truth which God possesses. While Jesus (through God) is Truth incarnate, He is not Himself God and does not recognize Himself as such.

God can bear witness of Himself. Jesus (incarnate) cannot.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Let me ask you, when you say, Jesus is God, what does that mean?

Interesting question.

My first response would be to say He is fully endowed with - fully a Part of - the Godhead, and that in His resurrected State He is fully One with the Father.

Why?

 

[Butch5]

If man needs 2 or 3 to judge anyone or to establish a testimony by His words, then how does God do it? If man cannot bear testimony of himself or else a false witness, John 5:31 then how can God?

Can God bear false witness? I don't think so. Why then would He need a witness? However, if He did there are a myriad of angels.

How is that when the Father sends the Comforter John 14:25-26 The Father gives the promise at our salvation moment when we knock at the door of Jesus Christ Luke 11:9-13 Kind of easy to say the Father gives Himself, but that is not what was written.

Indeed, John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." testify to more than just the Holy Spirit dwelling in us too when saved. This is a testimony from the Triune God in us that we are saved.

There's nothing here that speaks of a triune God. Who did Jesus say would dwell in the believer? Was it not Him and His Father? Jesus became a man, how then is it that He would dwelling in believers? Surely you wouldn't suggest that all believers have another human being dwelling in them. Jesus is one person how would He dwell in multiple Christians? The answer is the Holy Spirit, or Holy Breath.

Ephesians 4:30 is a warning that we can grieve the holy Spirit. And John 14:26 has Jesus telling us the father will send the comforter Whose job is to teach and remind whatever Jesus has said unto us. Reads as a separate Person in that Godhead to me.

Yes, If the Holy Spirit is the Father then yes, He can be grieved. Actually, Jesus said John 14:26 to the apostles. All we have to do is look at Christianity and see that all believers are not being lead into all truth.

It reads as a separate person because the translators believe it is a separate person and as such they translate it that way. If we look at the Greek text we see that the word translated spirit is in the neuter Gender and should be translated it, not he. The only place the spirit should be referred to as he is when it is called the helper. There is a grammatical reason for this. The Greek word translated helper is in the masculine voice. Greek grammar requires that pronouns match their noun in gender. Since helper is masculine, the pronoun must be also. That's why wisdom is personified as a female. The Greek word sophia is feminine in gender.

I posted above in post 202 a passage where Jesus said that His speaking of the Helper, the Spirit of Truth, was figurative language for the Father. What do you do that?

I would submit that the Holy Spirit is not the Father in His entirety, but rather a manifestation of the Father in a limited sense. There are more passages to make this point. Why is the Father called the Father? Isn't it because Jesus is His Son. Didn't the Father beget Jesus? If you believe that the Father is the father of Jesus how do you explain the words of the angel sent to Mary?

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Lk. 1:30-35 KJV)

In this passage the angel says that the Holy Spirit would come upon Mary and the power of the Highest would overshadow her. There are several significant things here. The first is that it was the Holy Spirit that impregnated Mary. If the Holy Spirit is a third person, then He would be the Father of Jesus, not the Father. That's a big problem. The angel specifically says Jesus would be called the Son of God, not the Son of the Holy Spirit. Another important point in this passage is that the angel calls the Holy Spirit, the power of the Highest. So, the angel of God calls the Holy Spirit, power. Jesus did this same thing referring to Pentecost. He told the disciples to remain in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. That happened when they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. (Lk. 24:49 KJV)

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:8 KJV)

Again, the Holy Spirit is referred to as power. Another point is that the angel calls the Holy Spirit the power of the Highest. Logically there can only be one highest. There can't be three. Since, the angel was talking about the birth of Christ, Christ couldn't be the highest referred to. Since the Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest, it couldn't be the highest that the angel referred to. That leaves only the Father. The Father alone is the Highest. He is the ultimate God. Just as Paul told the Corinthians, to us there is one God, the Father.

 

[Butch5]

Interesting question.

My first response would be to say He is fully endowed with - fully a Part of - the Godhead, and that in His resurrected State He is fully One with the Father.

Why?

I ask because it's really the key to the whole issue. It's been my experience that as Christians we throw words around without defining what we mean and often we are on different pages. Another example would be Godhead, what is Godhead? I know the old English meaning is godhood. That's the definition I give it. It's similar to motherhood or fatherhood. However, I don't think that's the meaning most Christians give it. It seems to have become a theological word and taken on a meaning all it's own. I think it often different for different people also.

When I say Jesus is God, what I mean is that Jesus is Deity. He is of the same essence as the Father. He literally came out of the Father. Whatever the Father is the Son is as far as essence is concerned. Just as my child is of the same essence as I am.

When I say Jesus is one with God, the Father, I mean in unity, not in number or person.

I would ask what you believe His resurrected state is. As I read He is human. Paul said that He was in the form of God and emptied Himself taking the form of man. John, in his first epistle says, anyone who denies that Jesus has come in the flesh is of the spirit of antichrist. He uses a perfect tense verb for "has come". This indicates that at the time John wrote the epistle Jesus was still in the flesh. This makes me wonder what you mean by fully one with God.

 

[Butch5]

No Butch. The Helper, The Comforter is the Holy Spirit.


“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever. John 14:15-16


That’s three.

I
The Father
Another Helper




JLB

Jesus said it, not me.

 

[Butch5]

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


This one is three is Modalism.





JLB

Three personas is Modalism. Three persons is not.

 

[Hidden In Him]

John, in his first epistle says, anyone who denies that Jesus has come in the flesh is of the spirit of antichrist. He uses a perfect tense verb for "has come". This indicates that at the time John wrote the epistle Jesus was still in the flesh.

I liked most of your post, but this statement right here threw me a curve. I can try and get back to the rest later, but what do you mean by this; how was Jesus still in the flesh as of the writing of 1st John?

 

[Butch5]

I liked most of your post, but this statement right here threw me a curve. I can try and get back to the rest later, but what do you mean by this; how was Jesus still in the flesh as of the writing of 1st John?

When He was taken up into Heaven it was bodily. They saw it. The Angel told them He would return the same way. John's words indicate that after being taken up He was still in the flesh. There isn't anything in Scriputre that would indicate anything else.

 

[Hidden In Him]

When He was taken up into Heaven it was bodily. They saw it. The Angel told them He would return the same way. John's words indicate that after being taken up He was still in the flesh. There isn't anything in Scriputre that would indicate anything else.

In the flesh... You don't think His body had become glorified such that He could manifest as He wished? John 20:26 suggests He could at that point appear in rooms without entering in through a door.

 

[Golgotha]

What an interesting set of verses there.

​

Jesus is able to hear the Truth (Word of God). Truth is reliable (and therefore requires no acknowledgement or witness).​

It appears that Jesus is saying that God requires no witness/acknowledgement, but, being incarnate, Jesus does not attribute to Himself (apart from God) that pureness of Truth which God possesses. While Jesus (through God) is Truth incarnate, He is not Himself God and does not recognize Himself as such.

God can bear witness of Himself. Jesus (incarnate) cannot.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge (distinguish): and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true (reliable).
John 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. ]

The scripture you had provided shows how Gd the father & His Spirit bears witness for how Jesus's testimony is true.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

God the Father & the Holy Spirit did this at Jesus's water baptism in testifying of Jesus as that God our Redeemer from the prophesy in Isaiah.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Note how the Lord, our Redeemer is speaking and yet the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him which the Father & the holy Spirit did in testimony at His water baptism below.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[Butch5]

In the flesh... You don't think His body had become glorified such that He could manifest as He wished? John 20:26 suggests He could at that point appear in rooms without entering in through a door.

No, I don't think that. I believe He is flesh and blood just like He was before the cross. I think His apearing in locked rooms was the Father's doing.

 

[Golgotha]

Can God bear false witness? I don't think so. Why then would He need a witness? However, if He did there are a myriad of angels.

Yet in Genesis 1:26 the request was made to make man in our mage and after our likeness but when the act of creation was performed, only God did it in Genesis 1:27 so no angels involved as man was created in His image and after His likeness.

Isiaah 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

So Who was the Lord speaking to in making that request and yet only God did it?

Not like anyone can refuse Him but only God did it.

Same thing happened to the people at the tower of Babylon as the request was made to confuse their language and scatter them but only the Lord did it as it is written. Genesis 11:5-9

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So as God commands of men in having 2 or 3 witnesses to judge anyone or to establish a word or a testimony, so God is as the Triune God..

There's nothing here that speaks of a triune God. Who did Jesus say would dwell in the believer? Was it not Him and His Father?

Yes, note the plural in John 14:23, but the Holy Spirit too in John 14:26

Jesus became a man, how then is it that He would dwelling in believers?

After His ascension which was after His resurrection, at and since Pentecost, Jesus Christ indwells believers per 2 Corinthians 13:5

Surely you wouldn't suggest that all believers have another human being dwelling in them.

Explain John 14:23 then when Jesus said He and the Father will make their abode in us.

Jesus is one person how would He dwell in multiple Christians? The answer is the Holy Spirit, or Holy Breath.

Jesus is God the Son.

 

[Golgotha]

I ask because it's really the key to the whole issue. It's been my experience that as Christians we throw words around without defining what we mean and often we are on different pages. Another example would be Godhead, what is Godhead? I know the old English meaning is godhood. That's the definition I give it. It's similar to motherhood or fatherhood. However, I don't think that's the meaning most Christians give it. It seems to have become a theological word and taken on a meaning all it's own. I think it often different for different people also.

Whether godhood or Godhead, you can derive this term from the truth in scripture.

When I say Jesus is God, what I mean is that Jesus is Deity. He is of the same essence as the Father. He literally came out of the Father. Whatever the Father is the Son is as far as essence is concerned. Just as my child is of the same essence as I am.

Thus, Jesus is God

When I say Jesus is one with God, the Father, I mean in unity, not in number or person.

He may lead you to rethink that in the knowledge of Him.

I would ask what you believe His resurrected state is. As I read He is human. Paul said that He was in the form of God and emptied Himself taking the form of man. John, in his first epistle says, anyone who denies that Jesus has come in the flesh is of the spirit of antichrist. He uses a perfect tense verb for "has come". This indicates that at the time John wrote the epistle Jesus was still in the flesh. This makes me wonder what you mean by fully one with God.

Let us read exactly what Paul had written;

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

So Paul testified that Jesus had thought He is God as equal with God.

And read that Jesus Christ has been received at our salvation moment;

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

How can we receive Him as a human spirit in us unless He is God of the Triune God?

 

[Golgotha]

Jesus said it, not me.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I read what Jesus has said about the Father sending Another Person in doing a job. That separates the Holy Spirt as sent by the Father as not the Father and yet not the Son, Jesus, to be reminding us of whatever Jesus has said unto us..

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Yet in Genesis 1:26 the request was made to make man in our mage and after our likeness but when the act of creation was performed, only God did it in Genesis 1:27 so no angels involved as man was created in His image and after His likeness.

Isiaah 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

So Who was the Lord speaking to in making that request and yet only God did it?

Not like anyone can refuse Him but only God did it.

Same thing happened to the people at the tower of Babylon as the request was made to confuse their language and scatter them but only the Lord did it as it is written. Genesis 11:5-9

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So as God commands of men in having 2 or 3 witnesses to judge anyone or to establish a word or a testimony, so God is as the Triune God..

Yes, note the plural in John 14:23, but the Holy Spirit too in John 14:26

After His ascension which was after His resurrection, at and since Pentecost, Jesus Christ indwells believers per 2 Corinthians 13:5

Explain John 14:23 then when Jesus said He and the Father will make their abode in us.

Jesus is God the Son.

Hi Golgotha, where does it say Jesus is God the Son

 

[Golgotha]

Three personas is Modalism. Three persons is not.

Yet scripture does testify to Three Witnesses in Heaven as They agree as One for how the Triune God exists, judges, and testifies so that His word is true.

 

[Golgotha]

Hi Golgotha, where does it say Jesus is God the Son

The message is clear in the scripture even though, not worded like that.

Son of God is God as Spirit of God is God.

To deny the Son as the Christ, as God is to deny the Father as God.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rock has always been a reference to deity in the Old Testament.

Christ As the Rock Is Christ As God

So God the Son is the message of truth in the scripture.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

The message is clear in the scripture even though, not worded like that.

Son of God is God as Spirit of God is God.

To deny the Son as the Christ, as God is to deny the Father as God.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rock has always been a reference to deity in the Old Testament.

Christ As the Rock Is Christ As God

So God the Son is the message of truth in the scripture.

Christ said His Father is Greater and in another place, Christ said His Father is Spirit, I'm sure while He was on earth He is The Son, as Peter has said also, so then! tell me how can He be God at the same time as His Father?

 

[Golgotha]

Christ said His Father is Greater and in another place,

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Are not the Son & the Father sharing the same hand of salvation? Is not verse 30 above is Jesus declaring Himself to be God as well? The Jews understod Him plainly for why they tried to stone Him afterwards.

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

That is why the Father's will be done. but Jesus is still God the Son.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Believe what? What He said in the beginning that He is God.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

I have His wisdom to see the truth in that verse that He is asking us that believe in God to believe in Him as God too.

Christ said His Father is Spirit, I'm sure while He was on earth He is The Son, as Peter has said also, so then! tell me how can He be God at the same time as His Father?

Jesus was on earth before His incarnation as seen by Abraham in Genesis 18:1 as Jesus said He had seen Him in that day in John 8:56-59 as scriptures testify of Him John 5:39-47 just as Moses had written about Him.