Jesus Is God: Part 1

[Butch5]

In the flesh

He said He came out of God. The flesh came out of Mary

 

[BPPLEE]

He said He came out of God. The flesh came out of Mary

Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[Randy]

Please post the scripture that says Jesus had a beginning.


Jesus is the Beginning!

Jesus was not created. Jesus is the Creator!

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13



JLB

Only one is shown as not having received from any other being. The Father

Jesus has a beginning as there is only one true God.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
The firstborn of all creation.
Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

It was the one in Jesus doing His work.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


Col 1:19 there is a difference between In Him then being that Deity in Himself. (Gifted by the will of another)
It also shows another defining Jesus's being and the act took place in a point in history before all things were created. (A beginning)

 

[BPPLEE]

Only one is shown as not having received from any other being. The Father

Jesus has a beginning as there is only one true God.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
The firstborn of all creation.
Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

It was the one in Jesus doing His work.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


Col 1:19 there is a difference between In Him then being that Deity in Himself. (Gifted by the will of another)
It also shows another defining Jesus's being and the act took place in a point in history before all things were created. (A beginning)

Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[Randy]

Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jesus was with God in the beginning. His beginning was before all other things. Those other things were created through Him and for Him. Also from His beginning Jesus is all that the Father is. (God; Col 1:19) It was the Fathers Deity in Him creating by Him, through Him and for Him all things.

Again the Father, (His Deity), is the only true God. It was Gods Deity that was gifted to Jesus. (Col 1:19) So that in Jesus all the fullness of the Godhead or Deity dwells. The Son is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the exact representation of the Fathers being. God in that context.

 

[Butch5]

Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Yes, I'm well aware of that passage. John isn't trying to disprove what Jesus said.

 

[JLB]

Jesus has a beginning as there is only one true God.

Jesus has no beginning as is the Lord God; YHWH ELOHIM


The Father, The Spirit and the Word are One; YHWH ELOHIM





JLB

 

[Randy]

Jesus has no beginning as is the Lord God; YHWH ELOHIM


The Father, The Spirit and the Word are One; YHWH ELOHIM





JLB

If that's what you continue to state fine by me for you.

I disagree
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

 

[Free]

One in unity.

In unity of what?

Maybe if you have all knowledge.

I suggest you search this out. This is the domain of philosophy and philosophers are saying that a negative can be proven. Again, it is a myth that a negative cannot be proven.

Nice way to side step the overwhelming evidence against your position.

There was no sidestepping. I have provided evidence. You are presuming the very thing you are trying to prove. That is called begging the question.

Not as the Son. Sure, the substance of the Son existed in the Father.

So are they or are they not the same substance?

However, the Son, as distinct individual had a beginning. Jesu said so Himself.

Where did Jesus say this?

Did you look at the Creed? We believe in one God, the Father. They believed just like Paul. Yes, the Nicene Creed does disagree with Trinitarian theology. It says there is one God, the Father, not one God in three persons. It says that the Son came out of the Father, True God out of True God. Begotten, not made. He was begotten of the Father. Jesus Himself said He came out of the Father. Trinitarian theology says there is one God who consists of three coequal, coeternal, persons.

The only way the Nicene Creed makes sense, from a Christian perspective, which includes monotheism, is that the Son has always existed and is eternally begotten. Again, the Jews were monotheists and Christianity is a continuation of the story with Jesus as the Messiah. Christianity always has been monotheistic.

I was pondering this and a question came to my mind, with all of the easily proven doctrines in Christianity, why have Christians chosen the Trinity as the hill to die on? The evidence against it is overwhelming.

On the contrary

It's not stated anywhere in Scripture that there is one God who consists of three persons.
We have clear statements of Scripture that say the Father is the one God of the Christians.

Again, you have to deal with 1 Cor 8:6 and then also your own peculiar belief that Jesus is God. You have two Gods of the Christians, despite your repeated assertion that the Father is the one God of the Christians. There is one God for Christians, in that you are correct, but your position is inherently contradictory.

Jesus tells us He came out of the Father, thus giving a distinct starting point.

Which would mean he was created. Again, that contradicts Scripture and your position.

The doctrine defies logic.

You are confusing logic with comprehension. It is your position, on the other hand, that is full of contradiction.

No one held this position until the 5th century, some 4500 years after creation.

Incorrect. I have provided evidence for the the foundations of the Trinity in early church writings.

The Jews didn't hold that the Holy Breath was a distinct person. They had the Scriptures from the time Moses wrote, 'Let us make man in our image'.

Who is "us" and "our" referring to?

I could keep going, but I don't know that there's any point. As I said in another post, Church doctrine always wins out over the Scriptures.

You have not at all proven that Church doctrine agrees with your position. You have claimed it does, but it only seems that you are reading into early church writings your understanding, the same as you do with Scripture. Provide proof or it's just your opinion.

That's not what the Bible reveals as I've pointed out. Nothing in Scripture speaks of a God who consists of three persons. However, Scripture does speak of one God, the Father. It speaks of the Father being the only true God. The Scriptures tell us that the Son was in the form of God and emptied Himself of that form taking the form of Man. Man is not all that the Father is, thus the Son is not all that the Father is.

Speaking of Polytheism, that's what Christians believe. The Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, the Holy Spirit is fully God. That's three that are fully God. No matter how we add it up, 1+1+1=3 not 1. Christians can claim, till the cows come home, that 1+1+1=1, just like I can claim, till the cows come home, that I'm a multibillionaire, however, that doesn't make it so. If we have three that are fully God we have three Gods. To get around the polytheism charge they simply make an outlandishly ridiculous claim that's supposed to relieve them of the charge.

These arguments do more to harm the faith than anything. When Christians try to explain this to unbelievers people look at it, and rightly, are skeptical. Why would they believe someone who is talking in logical fallacies?
It's like I said to one of the other guys, if you worked for me and came on Friday for your pay and I handed you one third of your check and told you that each dollar I gave you was really three dollars in one, you wouldn't accept that for a second. You wouldn't believe for a minute that there were three other dollars inside each one I gave you. You wouldn't believe that nonsensical claim in the real world, why will you believe it about God?

Like I said, stop using math as though it can prove or disprove anything about the nature of God.

There's a difference between what people did and what we are told to do. Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. We're told to worship the Father.

And just who is it that says we are to worship the Father? Consider the following:

Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” (ESV)

Even an angel corrected John for wanting to worship him, yet you brush aside the worship of Jesus by his disciples on more than one occasion. Notice that not once does Jesus correct them. You can only be purposely ignoring this as it, too, contradicts your position.

You keep going on about polytheism, however, like I said, the Trinity doctrine is a prime example of it, no matter how much people scream and shout.

The interesting thing is, I don't think you have denied being a polytheist. But, not, the Trinity is not polytheistic; monotheism is one of its foundations.

How in the world do you get, "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" as being equal with God?

What else could it mean? Look at the context. We could also look at what a couple of versions say:

Php 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. (HCSB)

Php 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.(NIV)

Was Jesus truly human?

 

[JLB]

If that's what you continue to state fine by me for you.

I disagree
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Can you distinguish, rightly divide, or differentiate between Jesus the Man and Jesus the Lord God Almighty before He became flesh?

What you quoted was from the Man Christ Jesus.


JLB

 

[Cooper]

Here is a general question to everyone. If someone said they believed the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob became flesh and they called his name Jesus, would people agree or not?
Thank you for your answers.

 

[JLB]

Here is a general question to everyone. If someone said they believed the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob became flesh and they called his name Jesus, would people agree or not?
Thank you for your answers.

This is what I have taught here in this forum for the last 10 years.

Jesus Christ is the Lord God.

He appeared to Abraham, and made covenant with him.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


He will return with the saints from heaven on the Day of the Lord, to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, and destroy the wicked.


…Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


He appeared to Moses as the Angel of the Lord.


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

JLB

 

[Edward]

He appeared to Abraham, and made covenant with him.

Jesus is all over the Old Testament.

 

[Randy]

Can you distinguish, rightly divide, or differentiate between Jesus the Man and Jesus the Lord God Almighty before He became flesh?

What you quoted was from the Man Christ Jesus.


JLB

Are you are telling me you believe Jesus ceased being God as the Son of God?
I didn't read when I became the Son of Man then Father became the only true God.
Also what about God the Spirit you keep stating rather than the Spirit of God?

Jesus, the Son of Man, uses truth.

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

 

[Randy]

I believe the Son who was, (His spirit), was in the body prepared for Him. The Fathers glory can not be set aside and contained in human flesh. So He prepared His Firstborn for such a task.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 cor 1:3
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:3
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

2thess 1:2
Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

philip 1:2
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

ephes 1:2
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
ephes 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ

rev 5
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever

Its was not God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit in the beginning. In fact as above nothing was given to what you believe is the person of the Spirit or God the Spirit.

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the only true God. His Spirit would have His nature. Divine, Holy, Truth, eternal but it is the Fathers being not another person of the Godhead.

 

[Cooper]

This is what I have taught here in this forum for the last 10 years.

Jesus Christ is the Lord God.

He appeared to Abraham, and made covenant with him.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


He will return with the saints from heaven on the Day of the Lord, to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, and destroy the wicked.


…Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


He appeared to Moses as the Angel of the Lord.


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

JLB

Thank you. I seem to be getting into trouble these days for the things I say, not on here though.

 

[Butch5]

Here's some more food for thought. John said, the word was God. John also said, no one has seen God at any time. How do we reconcile these statements? The one who said the Word was God also said no one has seen God. We know people saw Jesus.

 

[Cooper]

Here's some more food for thought. John said, the word was God. John also said, no one has seen God at any time. How do we reconcile these statements? The one who said the Word was God also said no one has seen God. We know people saw Jesus.

God is Spirit and although invisible was in Jesus.

 

[Cooper]

Here's some more food for thought. John said, the word was God. John also said, no one has seen God at any time. How do we reconcile these statements? The one who said the Word was God also said no one has seen God. We know people saw Jesus.

Or to put it another way, "All the fulness of the Godhead is in Jesus." (Colossians 1:19)

 

[Butch5]

Or to put it another way, "All the fulness of the Godhead is in Jesus." (Colossians 1:19)

That doesn't even address what I said