Jesus Is God: Part 1

[Randy]

Why do you think they accused Jesus of Blasphemy? Do you think maybe he implied he was God.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Failing that, perhaps you can accept Jesus is the creator.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Did you read "through" Him?
Who created "through" Him?


In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him


yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.

 

[Free]

Which is what I said. It's not stated.

No, that is not what you said. This is what you said: 'Ok, you used the words "strongly implied". That means it isn't there.' If something is implied, it can most certainly mean it is there; in fact, that is its normal usage.

There's no fallacy. I was simply pointing out that the use of "he" with refence to the Spirit doesn't prove personhood.

First, that is not at all the argument I was making; I have never made that argument. Second, you did commit a fallacy. Here is what you stated:

'Let me that the pneuma or spirit is in the neuter gender. The Greek language requires that the pronoun be the same gender as the noun. That means everywhere you see the word spirit the pronoun should be "it" not "he". If the pronoun is "he" the translator is inserting his bias. With that said, the only place the Spirit is correctly referred to as "he" is when Jesus speaks of the Helper or Comforter. But again, the pronoun must agree with the noun in gender and the noun translated comforter is masculine so the pronoun must be masculine. Effectively the "he" statements about the Spirit don't personhood.'

I acknowledged them. I suggested that the Spirit is the Father. That's personhood.

If the Holy Spirit is the Father, why does the NT consistently differentiate between the Father and the Holy Spirit?

I'm not sure what has to do with the issue. Matt 28:19 doesn't prove three persons. It just says, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Breath. It seems to me that calling it the Spirit of God is uniting them.

First, the reasoning with the English suggests otherwise. If the Father and Son are separate persons, then it suggests that the Holy Spirit is as well. Second, the Greek supports that idea. In the "name" (singular)

"The name is not the mere designation, a sense which would give to the baptismal formula merely the force of a charm. The name, as in the Lord's Prayer (“Hallowed be thy name”), is the expression of the sum total of the divine Being: not his designation as God or Lord, but the formula in which all his attributes and characteristics are summed up. It is equivalent to his person. The finite mind can deal with him only through his name; but his name is of no avail detached from his nature."

Ok, then how do you explain the possessive "of"?

"Of" isn't necessarily a possessive; it has a lot of uses. For example, from Merriam-Webster: "used as a function word to indicate a characteristic or distinctive quality or possession." There is also the question you sidestepped: And why is the Spirit also referred to as the Spirit of Jesus?

We also have to consider the context of when the Holy Spirit is referred to. If the Holy Spirit is a person, can one person truly possess another person? To support the assertion that the Holy Spirit is a person, I will again post the verses that you sidestepped:

The Holy Spirit:
Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:6, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

Again, these are actions of personal agency.

Actually, it is a logical conclusion and it's stated in Scripture. By Jesus no less.

7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
16 "A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father."
17 Then some of His disciples said among themselves, "What is this that He says to us,`A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me'; and,`because I go to the Father '?"
18 They said therefore, "What is this that He says,`A little while '? We do not know what He is saying."
19 Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, "Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said,`A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me '?
20 "Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy.
21 "A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.
22 "Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.
23 "And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
24 "Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. (Jn. 16:7-25 NKJ)

Here Jesus tells them that when He was speaking of the Helper, the Spirit of Truth, He was speaking figuratively of the Father. So, He says the Helper, the Spirit of Truth is the Father. There aren't three, there are two.

There is no equating here of the Helper, the Spirit of Truth, to the Father. And, again, why differentiate, why not just say the Father? Jesus says that if he doesn't go, the Helper won't come, but he does go, he'll send the Helper. Then, he says he's going to the Father. Do you really think Jesus sends the Father? Notice that the Father sent the Son, and now the Son will send the Holy Spirit. Also notice that the Spirit of Truth will "not speak on His own authority." Does that sound like the Father?

But you also need to address these verses which I posted previously:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (ESV)

Jesus will ask the Father to give "another Helper." Not only does Jesus not just say that he will send the Father or that the Father will come, but he also says that this is "another" Helper. This further brings out the distinctness of the Spirit from the Father and the Son.

 

[Free]

I believe this is the first time you've brought up the word substance. Before you used being. If each is fully God, then it is 1+1+1. And, yes, it is polytheism even though Christians deny it vehemently. Three, fully God, individuals, cannot be one no matter how many millions claim it is.

Using math to try and disprove the Trinity is silly. It's what the Bible says that matters. Besides, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. The doctrine of the Trinity is monotheistic, that is rather the point.

"Now if Christians said both that (1a) there exists precisely one God, and that (1b) it is not the case there exists precisely one God, they would contradict themselves. So also if they said both that (2a) there are three divine persons, and that (2b) it is not the case that there are three divine persons, they would also contradict themselves. But Christians do not affirm both 1a and 1b. Neither do they affirm both 2a and 2b. Rather, they affirm 1a and 2a. And this would be contradictory only if either 1a entails 2b or 2a entails 1b.
To put the point differently, when Christians say that God is both one and three, they do not say that He is one in the same way in which He is three. So, for instance, they do not say both that (1a) there exists precisely one God, and that (1c) there exist three gods. Nor do they say both that (2a) there are three divine persons, and that (2c) there exists only one divine person.
Since 1c entails 1b, affirming both it and 1a would be contradictory. And since 2c entails 2b, affirming both it and 2a would also be contradictory. But, as a matter of fact, Christians deny both 1c and 2c. In affirming 1a and 2a, then, Christians affirm that in one way GOd is one and in another way He is three. And in so doing they do not contradict themselves." (Douglas K. Blount)

Yes, and being and person are synonyms. They are interchangeable.

If you want to debate the Trinity as trinitarians understand it, then you must accept that the two words are used to refer to different things. They are being used to differentiate substance from personhood or centers of self-consciousness.

A lot of people get fooled by the three persons in one being.

That is what the Bible clearly reveals.

That Jesus is God is not at issue. That's a Red Herring.

It is very much an issue, for you. You believe Jesus is God, yet not the Father, which is good, but you also believe they are separate Gods. That makes you a polytheist, which contradicts Scripture:

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

(All ESV)

So, you really only have three options: 1) Jesus is not God, 2) God appears in three modes of being, or 3) a God that is at least a "binity."

That the three are one being is the issue. No one believed that until around 500AD.

Firstly, that there was, is, and only ever will be one God has been known for much longer than Christianity has been around, as I pointed out previously. That is one foundation of the Trinity. Secondly, you may not know early church writings as well as you think.

Clement states that the hope of believers is found in all three: "For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect."

Ignatius often speaks of Jesus and the Son as being God: "Jesus Christ, our God" (Ephesians 1); "For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost" (Ephesians 18); "God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life (Ephesians 19); "the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God . . . in Jesus Christ our God" (Romans 1); "For our God, Jesus Christ" (Romans 3); "Look for Him who is above all time, eternal and invisible, yet who became visible for our sakes; impalpable and impassible, yet who became passible on our account; and who in every kind of way suffered for our sakes" (Polycarp 3). He also has some very trinitarian language, "as being stones of the temple of the Father, prepared for the building of God the Father, and drawn up on high by the instrument of Jesus Christ, which is the cross, making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope" (Ephesians 9).

There is also the Nicene Creed, which I've mentioned already.

All this to say, although there appears to be no formally developed doctrine of the Trinity, all the foundations are there in various early church writings: 1) There is only one God (monotheism); 2) There are three divine persons; 3) The three divine persons are coequal and coeternal.

"Let us make man in Our image" is in the very beginning of the Bible. People were reading that passage for about 4000 years and didn't think it meant a Trinity. Then suddenly in the 5th century it means a Trinity? Not likely.

Again, it doesn't matter whether or not they saw it as referring to a Trinity; that doesn't determine the truth of the matter.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

Notice the use of the plural in verse 26 and then the singular in verse 27 to speak of humans being created in the image and likeness of God. How do you make sense of it?

I didn't say I disagree. I wanted you to show how it contradicts Scripture. I was looking for you show it from Scripture.

It should go without saying. Polytheism is against Scripture and what Christians have always believed. Regardless, I have shown this above.

 

[Free]

I didn't say the Father is the only God. Jesus is God (Deity) also. The Father is Deity. They are both Deity. It seems you're confusing title and name. If I said to you the President was on TV today, you'd know that I was talking about Biden. However, If I said President Obama was on TV today, you'd know I didn't mean Biden. Both are called president. both aren't the same being. Present is a title. However, It's often used as a name for the current president, as in The President. We do the same with God. God is title, Jesus and the Father are both Deity. However, the word God is also used of the Father as a name. When Paul says to us there is one God, the Father, he points to our ultimate authority. It's the same thing he said to Timothy.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:13-16 NKJ)

Paul says, that God, whom no man can see, is the only potentate. Is He saying that the Father is the only ruler? obviously not. There were many rulers. He's using "only" as a superlative. the Father is the Ultimate ruler. He is the Ruler above all other rulers. He answers to no one. Everyone else answers to Him. That's the point. Paul isn't denying the Deity of Christ. He's pointing to the Superiority of the Father above all else. Jesus does the same when He says, 'this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God'. The words, "only true" are being used as a superlative. Jesus isn't denying He own Deity. He's acknowledging the Fathers ultimate Superiority to all others. All are subordinate to the Father. Paul make this point in 1 Cor 15.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 NKJ)

At Jesus' resurrection He was giving all power and authority. Hence His title, King of kings and Lord of lords. However, Paul makes sure to say that even though all things were put under Christ, The Father is excepted from that. The Father is never under the Son, even when the Son has been given all authority. So, even when the Son has all authority, the Father is still superior to the Son. thus Paul's statement about the Father being the only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords. The Father is the ultimate in authority, bar none.

You seem to be arguing against arguments I haven't made. However, you are again showing your polytheistic beliefs which contradict Scripture. Simply put, there is only one God, so if Jesus is God, then he is all that the Father is, coequal and coeternal, while being distinct from the Father. That is what the Bible reveals and why the doctrine of the Trinity best takes it all into account.

How is he expanding on the Shema by saying there is only one God the Father?

I've already shown that.

I explained this above. In Scripture we are told to worship the Father. The Scriptures don't tell us to worship the Son or the Spirit. Jesus said the time is coming when the Father would be worshipped in spirit and truth. When asked about prayer He said, "Our Father who art in Heaven". We worship one God, the Father.

Yes, we are told to worship the Father, and yet, as I pointed out with Scripture, Jesus accepted worship on more than one occasion from the disciples. But you didn't address these passages either. We could also look at Heb 1:6 where God says to let all his angels worship the Son.

We also have to remember what Paul said about Jesus. He was in the form of God and emptied Himself and took on the form of man. John said, the word became flesh. So, Jesus emptied Himself of the form of God and became man, flesh.

Which trinitarians fully agree with but it creates problems for your position. First is the problem of polytheism. Second is that Jesus "did not count equality with God a think to be grasped" (ESV), or, as the NIV puts it, "did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage." In other words, he was equal with God.

 

[Free]

Because they didn't understand and thought He was claiming equality with God, the Father.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (Jn. 10:27-33 KJV)

A plain reading of the text is that they did understand Jesus' claim, that he was making himself equal to the Father--"I and the Father are one."

No, it doesn't prove it. You can't prove a negative.

Actually, yes, you can. It's a myth that you can't.

However, no one believed it for about 4000 years. Not the Jews, not Jesus, not the apostles, not the early Christians. Are we to believe that 4000 years of people working with God's word no one every saw this Trinity and then some 5th century Christians figured it out?

This is all just begging the question.

Not at all. The Father has always existed. The Son proceeded forth from the Father. However, He took on the form man and became subject to death, thus no longer eternal. He has eternal life now that He's been raised.

Is the Son of the same nature or substance as the Father? If so, then the Son has always existed as well, it cannot be otherwise. If he has not always existed, then you are in error for calling him God.

No, they weren't polytheists, but if you look at both copies of the Nicene Creed, they say that Jesus is true God out of true God, who was begotten before all worlds. So, I've just been saying what was Orthodox Christian theology in 325 AD. and 381 AD. It was actually from the beginning. It was changed in the Athanasian Creed. If you study the beliefs of the early Christians you'll find a very different Christianity than we have today.

The Nicene Creed does not disagree with trinitarian theology. I agree, the early church writers weren't polytheists, they were monotheists. So the only logical conclusion is that they either believed in a "biune" God or a triune God.

 

[Butch5]

A plain reading of the text is that they did understand Jesus' claim, that he was making himself equal to the Father--"I and the Father are one."

One in unity.

Actually, yes, you can. It's a myth that you can't.

Maybe if you have all knowledge.

This is all just begging the question.

Nice way to side step the overwhelming evidence against your position.

Is the Son of the same nature or substance as the Father? If so, then the Son has always existed as well, it cannot be otherwise. If he has not always existed, then you are in error for calling him God.

Not as the Son. Sure, the substance of the Son existed in the Father. However, the Son, as distinct individual had a beginning. Jesu said so Himself.

The Nicene Creed does not disagree with trinitarian theology. I agree, the early church writers weren't polytheists, they were monotheists. So the only logical conclusion is that they either believed in a "biune" God or a triune God.

Did you look at the Creed? We believe in one God, the Father. They believed just like Paul. Yes, the Nicene Creed does disagree with Trinitarian theology. It says there is one God, the Father, not one God in three persons. It says that the Son came out of the Father, True God out of True God. Begotten, not made. He was begotten of the Father. Jesus Himself said He came out of the Father. Trinitarian theology says there is one God who consists of three coequal, coeternal, persons.


I was pondering this and a question came to my mind, with all of the easily proven doctrines in Christianity, why have Christians chosen the Trinity as the hill to die on? The evidence against it is overwhelming.

It's not stated anywhere in Scripture that there is one God who consists of three persons.
We have clear statements of Scripture that say the Father is the one God of the Christians.
Jesus tells us He came out of the Father, thus giving a distinct starting point.
The doctrine defies logic.
No one held this position until the 5th century, some 4500 years after creation.
The Jews didn't hold that the Holy Breath was a distinct person. They had the Scriptures from the time Moses wrote, 'Let us make man in our image'.
The Jews saw the Holy Breath as the Shekinah Glory of God.
The words translated spirit don't mean spirit, that is a figure of speech.
Gabriel equates the Breath with 'the power of the Highest'.

I could keep going, but I don't know that there's any point. As I said in another post, Church doctrine always wins out over the Scriptures. This doctrine and thread prove that very point. How many in this thread have claimed that man is a spirit? We have the words of Jesus Himself. He said, 'a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have'. A spirit does not have flesh and bone. Man has flesh and bone. The only logical conclusion is that man is not a spirit. Paul said that Jesus was made like His brethren in all ways. If Jesus wasn't a spirit then neither are His brethren. Does that matter? No. People ignore it and go on claiming man is a spirit. So, This thread proves that Church doctrine wins over Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

You seem to be arguing against arguments I haven't made. However, you are again showing your polytheistic beliefs which contradict Scripture. Simply put, there is only one God, so if Jesus is God, then he is all that the Father is, coequal and coeternal, while being distinct from the Father. That is what the Bible reveals and why the doctrine of the Trinity best takes it all into account.

That's not what the Bible reveals as I've pointed out. Nothing in Scripture speaks of a God who consists of three persons. However, Scripture does speak of one God, the Father. It speaks of the Father being the only true God. The Scriptures tell us that the Son was in the form of God and emptied Himself of that form taking the form of Man. Man is not all that the Father is, thus the Son is not all that the Father is.

Speaking of Polytheism, that's what Christians believe. The Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, the Holy Spirit is fully God. That's three that are fully God. No matter how we add it up, 1+1+1=3 not 1. Christians can claim, till the cows come home, that 1+1+1=1, just like I can claim, till the cows come home, that I'm a multibillionaire, however, that doesn't make it so. If we have three that are fully God we have three Gods. To get around the polytheism charge they simply make an outlandishly ridiculous claim that's supposed to relieve them of the charge.

These arguments do more to harm the faith than anything. When Christians try to explain this to unbelievers people look at it, and rightly, are skeptical. Why would they believe someone who is talking in logical fallacies?
It's like I said to one of the other guys, if you worked for me and came on Friday for your pay and I handed you one third of your check and told you that each dollar I gave you was really three dollars in one, you wouldn't accept that for a second. You wouldn't believe for a minute that there were three other dollars inside each one I gave you. You wouldn't believe that nonsensical claim in the real world, why will you believe it about God?

Yes, we are told to worship the Father, and yet, as I pointed out with Scripture, Jesus accepted worship on more than one occasion from the disciples. But you didn't address these passages either. We could also look at Heb 1:6 where God says to let all his angels worship the Son.

There's a difference between what people did and what we are told to do. Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. We're told to worship the Father.

Which trinitarians fully agree with but it creates problems for your position. First is the problem of polytheism. Second is that Jesus "did not count equality with God a think to be grasped" (ESV), or, as the NIV puts it, "did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage." In other words, he was equal with God.

You keep going on about polytheism, however, like I said, the Trinity doctrine is a prime example of it, no matter how much people scream and shout.

How in the world do you get, "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" as being equal with God?

 

[Butch5]

Using math to try and disprove the Trinity is silly. It's what the Bible says that matters. Besides, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. The doctrine of the Trinity is monotheistic, that is rather the point.

No it's not. It's logic. We're not talking multiplication. Three persons as one God is addition, not multiplication.

"Now if Christians said both that (1a) there exists precisely one God, and that (1b) it is not the case there exists precisely one God, they would contradict themselves. So also if they said both that (2a) there are three divine persons, and that (2b) it is not the case that there are three divine persons, they would also contradict themselves. But Christians do not affirm both 1a and 1b. Neither do they affirm both 2a and 2b. Rather, they affirm 1a and 2a. And this would be contradictory only if either 1a entails 2b or 2a entails 1b.
To put the point differently, when Christians say that God is both one and three, they do not say that He is one in the same way in which He is three. So, for instance, they do not say both that (1a) there exists precisely one God, and that (1c) there exist three gods. Nor do they say both that (2a) there are three divine persons, and that (2c) there exists only one divine person.
Since 1c entails 1b, affirming both it and 1a would be contradictory. And since 2c entails 2b, affirming both it and 2a would also be contradictory. But, as a matter of fact, Christians deny both 1c and 2c. In affirming 1a and 2a, then, Christians affirm that in one way GOd is one and in another way He is three. And in so doing they do not contradict themselves." (Douglas K. Blount)

It's a nice try but it's still polytheism. Unless of course he wants to define God as something other than a being.

If you want to debate the Trinity as trinitarians understand it, then you must accept that the two words are used to refer to different things. They are being used to differentiate substance from personhood or centers of self-consciousness.

If that was true I could accept that. However, that's not what the Creed says, it says there are three, coequal, coeternal, persons who are God

That is what the Bible clearly reveals.

Now you're contradicting yourself. Above you said it was persons and substance and here you say the Bible reveals three persons in one being.

It is very much an issue, for you. You believe Jesus is God, yet not the Father, which is good, but you also believe they are separate Gods. That makes you a polytheist, which contradicts Scripture:

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

(All ESV)

So, you really only have three options: 1) Jesus is not God, 2) God appears in three modes of being, or 3) a God that is at least a "binity."

I notice all of the passages you quoted are of the Father speaking. Haven't I said that there is one God, the Father. Of course there is no other.

There are other options as I've already explained. The Father is the ultimate God. There are none equal to Him. It doesn't mean the Son isn't Deity. A king, is royalty. If he has a son his son is also royalty, however, his son is not the king.

The funny thing is, you say I'm polytheistic, yet if we go that route, and say I believe in two Gods, where does that leave you guys? You believe in three. Does that mean you're more polytheistic? I know, I know, you'll claim you're not, that somehow three equals one. But we all know in reality that's not possible. We can say it all day long, that doesn't make it so.

Firstly, that there was, is, and only ever will be one God has been known for much longer than Christianity has been around, as I pointed out previously. That is one foundation of the Trinity. Secondly, you may not know early church writings as well as you think.

Clement states that the hope of believers is found in all three: "For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect."

Ignatius often speaks of Jesus and the Son as being God: "Jesus Christ, our God" (Ephesians 1); "For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost" (Ephesians 18); "God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life (Ephesians 19); "the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God . . . in Jesus Christ our God" (Romans 1); "For our God, Jesus Christ" (Romans 3); "Look for Him who is above all time, eternal and invisible, yet who became visible for our sakes; impalpable and impassible, yet who became passible on our account; and who in every kind of way suffered for our sakes" (Polycarp 3). He also has some very trinitarian language, "as being stones of the temple of the Father, prepared for the building of God the Father, and drawn up on high by the instrument of Jesus Christ, which is the cross, making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope" (Ephesians 9).

There is also the Nicene Creed, which I've mentioned already.

All this to say, although there appears to be no formally developed doctrine of the Trinity, all the foundations are there in various early church writings: 1) There is only one God (monotheism); 2) There are three divine persons; 3) The three divine persons are coequal and coeternal.

I didn't see where any of them said the three were one being. Are you sure you're not reading things into their words? No one has denied that Jesus is God (Deity). As far as the foundations, well, we have those in Scripture, "to us there is one God, the Father". Why do you continue to argue with Paul. I asked you a question before and you didn't answer it. Was Paul wrong when he said, "to us there is one God, the Father"? Jesus said the Father is the only true God, was He wrong?

Rather than trying to disprove what they said, why not try to reconcile all of the statements in such a way that they don't contradict one another. The way we know we have it correct is harmony. If everything fits together harmoniously, we have it right. If it doesn't, we're in error.

Again, it doesn't matter whether or not they saw it as referring to a Trinity; that doesn't determine the truth of the matter.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

Notice the use of the plural in verse 26 and then the singular in verse 27 to speak of humans being created in the image and likeness of God. How do you make sense of it?

The Majestic Plural. It's a known function of Hebrew literature. It's also used of humans in the Bible, would you say that humans are one human that consists of three persons?

The majestic plural – What is it? How is the majestic plural used in the Bible?

The majestic plural – What is it? How is the majestic plural used in the Bible? Where does the Bible use the majestic plural, and what does it indicate?

www.compellingtruth.org

It should go without saying. Polytheism is against Scripture and what Christians have always believed. Regardless, I have shown this above.

It does go without saying that Christians have claimed their belief is against polytheism since the 5th century when this doctrine came into being. However, as I said, that doesn't make it so. That no one can explain how this can be speaks volumes. Some of the best theologians have tried. They can't do it. The reason is that it's a logical contradiction. Instead of scrapping it and goin back to the Scriptures many, if not most, have chosen this as the hill to die on.

 

[Cooper]

And the scriptures teach us it is Jesus who is the I AM.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59




JLB

Thank you for that and God bless. I am feeling a little low.

 

[Cooper]

JESUS IS
Abi ’ad —transliteration from Hebrew
Hebrew: אֲבִיעַ֖ד
Meaning: “Eternal Father”
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Isaiah 9:6 NASB

The Alpha and the Omega
Greek: τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ
Meaning: “The First and the Last,” “The Beginning and The End”
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Rev. 1:8, 11, 21:16, 22:13

The All Sufficient One
“The All Sufficient”
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
He is all sufficient because He is Almighty.
2 Corinthians 9:8 KJV

The Author and Finisher of Our Faith
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Hebrews 12:1-2 KJV, NKJV
“the founder and perfecter of our faith” —Hebrews 12:1-2 ESV
“the author and perfecter of faith” —Hebrews 12:1-2 NASB

The Author of Eternal Salvation
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Hebrews 5:9 KJV

The Beginning
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Colossians 1:18 KJV

The Blessed and Only Sovereign
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
1 Timothy 6:15 NASB, ESV
“The Blessed and Only Potentate” —1 Tim. 6:15 KJV and NKJV

The Branch
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Zec. 6:12 KJV; Zec. 3:8 KJV, etc.
He will build the millennial temple, and will be the world’s glorious King and high priest, bringing peace.

The Branch of Righteousness
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Jeremiah 33:15

The Bread of Life
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
John 6:26-35 KJV; John 6:47-48 KJV

The Bridegroom
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Matthew 25:1; 9:15; Mark 2:19-20; Luke 5:34-35; John 3:28-30
The bride is the Church—the body of all true followers of Christ (Ephesians 5:27).

The Bright Morning Star
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Rev. 22:16 NASB, ESV
“the bright and morning star” —Rev. 22:16 KJV, NKJV

The Captain of Their Salvation
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Hebrews 2:10 KJV and NKJV
“the author of their salvation” —NASB
“the founder of their salvation” —ESV

Everlasting Father
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Isaiah 9:6 KJV, NKJV, ESV
“Eternal Father” —Isa. 9:6 NASB

The Firstborn of All Creation
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Col. 1:15-16 NASB, ESV
“the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created” —Col. 1:15-16 KJV
“the firstborn over all creation” —Col. 1:15-16 NKJV, NIV

967 Names and Titles of our God (God's biblical names) - WebBible Encyclopedia - ChristianAnswers.Net

lengthy list of various names and titles of the God of the Bible

christiananswers.net

 

[JLB]

Thank you for that and God bless. I am feeling a little low.

God bless you and strengthen you today!

May the Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you.

I pray that the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace today.



JLB

 

[eddif]

That's not what the Bible reveals as I've pointed out. Nothing in Scripture speaks of a God who consists of three persons.

Ecclesties 4:12 kjv
12. And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

In this case we see two levels of understanding joined.
The social level and the rope level.

Seed = word of God = word become flesh (Jesus) = quickening spirit 2nd Adam became (in us).

Ground = mens hearts etc - etc

To take a concept and lock it into one context just leaves room to miss a lot of knowledge.

Parables as used by Jesus in public were to conceal knowledge. Parables explained privately to the disciples helped them open the seals on creation.

Yes trinity folks seem to not use Bible examples at times, but publicly Jesus hid a lot of information through parables.

eddif

 

[JLB]

However, the Son, as distinct individual had a beginning. Jesu said so Himself.

Please post the scripture that says Jesus had a beginning.


Jesus is the Beginning!

Jesus was not created. Jesus is the Creator!

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13



JLB

 

[Cooper]

God bless you and strengthen you today!

May the Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you.

I pray that the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace today.



JLB

Amen Lord, and thank you JLB.

 

[Randy]

JESUS IS
Abi ’ad —transliteration from Hebrew
Hebrew: אֲבִיעַ֖ד
Meaning: “Eternal Father”
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Isaiah 9:6 NASB

The Alpha and the Omega
Greek: τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ
Meaning: “The First and the Last,” “The Beginning and The End”
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Rev. 1:8, 11, 21:16, 22:13

The All Sufficient One
“The All Sufficient”
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
He is all sufficient because He is Almighty.
2 Corinthians 9:8 KJV

The Author and Finisher of Our Faith
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Hebrews 12:1-2 KJV, NKJV
“the founder and perfecter of our faith” —Hebrews 12:1-2 ESV
“the author and perfecter of faith” —Hebrews 12:1-2 NASB

The Author of Eternal Salvation
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Hebrews 5:9 KJV

The Beginning
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Colossians 1:18 KJV

The Blessed and Only Sovereign
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
1 Timothy 6:15 NASB, ESV
“The Blessed and Only Potentate” —1 Tim. 6:15 KJV and NKJV

The Branch
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Zec. 6:12 KJV; Zec. 3:8 KJV, etc.
He will build the millennial temple, and will be the world’s glorious King and high priest, bringing peace.

The Branch of Righteousness
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Jeremiah 33:15

The Bread of Life
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
John 6:26-35 KJV; John 6:47-48 KJV

The Bridegroom
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Matthew 25:1; 9:15; Mark 2:19-20; Luke 5:34-35; John 3:28-30
The bride is the Church—the body of all true followers of Christ (Ephesians 5:27).

The Bright Morning Star
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Rev. 22:16 NASB, ESV
“the bright and morning star” —Rev. 22:16 KJV, NKJV

The Captain of Their Salvation
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Hebrews 2:10 KJV and NKJV
“the author of their salvation” —NASB
“the founder of their salvation” —ESV

Everlasting Father
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Isaiah 9:6 KJV, NKJV, ESV
“Eternal Father” —Isa. 9:6 NASB

The Firstborn of All Creation
—refers to God the Son (Jesus Christ)
Col. 1:15-16 NASB, ESV
“the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created” —Col. 1:15-16 KJV
“the firstborn over all creation” —Col. 1:15-16 NKJV, NIV

967 Names and Titles of our God (God's biblical names) - WebBible Encyclopedia - ChristianAnswers.Net

lengthy list of various names and titles of the God of the Bible

christiananswers.net

He is where His GOD and our GOD ordained Him to be.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

His God=>The only true God per Jesus

God ordained the name of His Firstborn (Jesus's spirit), with the name He would be called Mighty God, prince of Peace, everlasting Father.
Col 1:19

Jesus is before all things. The creation was created through Him and for Him

Gods firstborn would be a being not a people and such a being would make such a statement, "Before Abraham was born I AM"

The FATHERS Deity is the fullness and He was please to gift it to dwell in His firstborn. Jesus in that is the First and Last no other child of God will ever be given the Godhead. The fullness of Gods Deity dwells in Jesus with His spirit and He is ALL that the Father is reflecting the name His God gave Him. "Mighty God" They are one as "Jesus" taught. The Father in Him and He in the Father just as Jesus is in us and we in Him.

I don't know why you think the Only living God needs to receive authority or calls another His God and Father but you do. Jesus and His God were very clear on that. Jesus=>all authority in heaven and earth have been GIVEN to me.

You are free to believe Jesus always was and always was God. My understanding/interpretation of all that is written of Jesus comes from above because I asked Jesus, "Can anyone explain the trinity?" Even you are not orthodox in your belief.

But Jesus is NOT the Father

To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jesus said, “ I Am . And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.

 

[Butch5]

Please post the scripture that says Jesus had a beginning.


Jesus is the Beginning!

Jesus was not created. Jesus is the Creator!

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13



JLB

John 8:42, Jesus said He came out of God.

 

[Butch5]

Ecclesties 4:12 kjv
12. And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

In this case we see two levels of understanding joined.
The social level and the rope level.

Seed = word of God = word become flesh (Jesus) = quickening spirit 2nd Adam became (in us).

Ground = mens hearts etc - etc

To take a concept and lock it into one context just leaves room to miss a lot of knowledge.

Parables as used by Jesus in public were to conceal knowledge. Parables explained privately to the disciples helped them open the seals on creation.

Yes trinity folks seem to not use Bible examples at times, but publicly Jesus hid a lot of information through parables.

eddif

I'm not sure where you're going here.

 

[Cooper]

He is where His GOD and our GOD ordained Him to be.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

His God=>The only true God per Jesus

God ordained the name of His Firstborn (Jesus's spirit), with the name He would be called Mighty God, prince of Peace, everlasting Father.
Col 1:19

Jesus is before all things. The creation was created through Him and for Him

Gods firstborn would be a being not a people and such a being would make such a statement, "Before Abraham was born I AM"

The FATHERS Deity is the fullness and He was please to gift it to dwell in His firstborn. Jesus in that is the First and Last no other child of God will ever be given the Godhead. The fullness of Gods Deity dwells in Jesus with His spirit and He is ALL that the Father is reflecting the name His God gave Him. "Mighty God" They are one as "Jesus" taught. The Father in Him and He in the Father just as Jesus is in us and we in Him.

I don't know why you think the Only living God needs to receive authority or calls another His God and Father but you do. Jesus and His God were very clear on that. Jesus=>all authority in heaven and earth have been GIVEN to me.

You are free to believe Jesus always was and always was God. My understanding/interpretation of all that is written of Jesus comes from above because I asked Jesus, "Can anyone explain the trinity?" Even you are not orthodox in your belief.

But Jesus is NOT the Father

To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jesus said, “ I Am . And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.

The early Christians who followed Jesus, would never have said anything like that, but the false teachers would have said something very similar. I am tired of flogging a dead horse and I need to put you on ignore, sorry about that, but there we are.

 

[Randy]

The early Christians who followed Jesus, would never have said anything like that, but the false teachers would have said something very similar. I am tired of flogging a dead horse and I need to put you on ignore, sorry about that, but there we are.

You Ignore because you can't accept the words of the "Head of the body of Christ"
You judge because that is a fault found in your heart not mine.
You could have stopped in this thread any time you wanted even without posting this nonsense. There were are for sure.

 

[BPPLEE]

John 8:42, Jesus said He came out of God.

In the flesh