Bible Study Jesus is God

[Solo]

Jesus is only first born of God as the birth of Jesus as man is the first time that God became flesh and blood. God became man to save man by the resurrection so that He became the first born and the first resurrection and the first fruits of God.

Jesus is God. Simple!

 

[Georges]

Jesus is only first born of God as the birth of Jesus as man is the first time that God became flesh and blood.

Doesn't make a lick of sense....logically. God who abhors sin, became a sinful human? According to mainstream Christianity, speaking as a reformed Lutheran, babies are concieved and born with an inherent sinful nature. Am I to believe that God (who is without sin), came down to be born of a woman (who has sin), became a sinless God/Child? Isn't that like mixing matter and anti matter?

As I've posted the above articles froma Jewish perspective, I think that the Memra and the spirit of the Messiah were created before the earth's formation. In that sense Messiah is the firstborn of every creature. As to his being the firstborn of himself in human form....That needs to be rethought. IMO, Messiah was born of Mary with the ability to sin....but instead he was Torah observant...thereby keeping his state of righteousness. At his Baptism....God gave Messiah his full authority as his agent to act on his behalf.



God became man to save man by the resurrection so that He became the first born and the first resurrection and the first fruits of God.

Please explain to me why a "fully righteous, torah observent" man couldn't be the "Passover"? Please tell me why God's "Holy Spirit" couldn't rest on a "fully righteous torah observant" man empowering him to fully keep the Torah, so he could be a blameless sacrifice?

Jesus is God. Simple!

So simple that it took 300 years plus to figure it out...and it still ain't figured out....I'm preplexed by folks are so stuck in the "Jesus is God" mantra that they won't even step back and consider any other alternative.....or, the history in which that theology was developed. Oh the defensive mechanisms kick and the blinders come up.....

Solo....that isn't directed at you personally, but any and all (myself included) that won't take a logical approach to theology and belief development.

 

[Free]

Perhaps. Looking at it this way it does make sense. But critically, it says he is the firstborn of every creature because/for he created all things etc...

Actually, that is what I was trying to say. I used too many words and got lost in my thoughts in the process. I think your understanding of this passage is truer to the text than mine, so I will therefore adjust my view accordingly.

As long as we don't submit to the view that he was actually created.

Precisely. :D

Doesn't make a lick of sense....logically. God who abhors sin, became a sinful human? According to mainstream Christianity, speaking as a reformed Lutheran, babies are concieved and born with an inherent sinful nature.

Personally, I reject the idea that man is born with a sinful nature. I believe that we are born with the inherent tendancy to sin, a tendancy so strong that apart from divine intervention one will always sin.

Regardless, the Bible is clear that Jesus was a man as we are and yet was without sin. So really, your position lacks just as much logic as ours. According to Judaism the sacrifice had to be without blemish to be accepted by God. So either you have God in human flesh or you have a creature in human flesh and the problem of a sinful human nature remains.

There are a couple of the larger problems with your view. One is that Christ is reduced to a mere creature. This means that he also has a sinful nature and is in need of salvation himself. Another is that it implies that if we too are "Torah observant...thereby keeping [our] state of righteousness," that we could provide salvation for ourselves and others. This leads to the logical conclusion that it is possible for there to be many Messiahs, many Saviors.

So simple that it took 300 years plus to figure it out...and it still ain't figured out....I'm preplexed by folks are so stuck in the "Jesus is God" mantra that they won't even step back and consider any other alternative.....or, the history in which that theology was developed. Oh the defensive mechanisms kick and the blinders come up.....

Jesus' deity was officially accepted 300 years after his death, but the idea has been around since at least the early second century. I have considered many alternatives but they all fall short.

As I stated to someone in another thread, I'll agree with Thomas that Jesus is "my Lord and My God".

 

[Georges]

Doesn't make a lick of sense....logically. God who abhors sin, became a sinful human? According to mainstream Christianity, speaking as a reformed Lutheran, babies are concieved and born with an inherent sinful nature.

Personally, I reject the idea that man is born with a sinful nature. I believe that we are born with the inherent tendancy to sin, a tendancy so strong that apart from divine intervention one will always sin.

And my opinion is that children are held blameless until the age of recognition...In Judaism...that would be Bar Mitzvah age. Until that point the parent is responsible to teach them...etc.

Regardless, the Bible is clear that Jesus was a man as we are and yet was without sin.

I would say Torahly righteous....Not sure if Torahly is a word :

So really, your position lacks just as much logic as ours.

According to Judaism the sacrifice had to be without blemish to be accepted by God. So either you have God in human flesh or you have a creature in human flesh and the problem of a sinful human nature remains.

Glad to see you using those terms....Yes you are correct in regard to the Passover lamb, and I will agree that Jesus was spotless. In Judaism, yearly at Rosh Hashanah, and at Yom Kippur God judges men to be righteous or not....Between RH and YK they have a chance to make right for their sins..at least in the temple days..

About the sinful nature of Man....what good does it do if you (God) who is supposed to be sinless, takes on a human body, and abstains from sin? He (God) can't sin, as he is God. So is it a false salvation situation?

That really isn't a big sacrifice, especially if you can raise yourself....

Now, if you have a man...who is every bit of a man, who keeps himself Torah righteous and has the ability to sin but abstains from it.....that is a different situation. That man earns the right to sit at the right hand of God. But if this man is half God, or even fully God in a human body, then it is a bogus salvation situation. It's a stacked deck.....no real sacrifice...



There are a couple of the larger problems with your view. One is that Christ is reduced to a mere creature. This means that he also has a sinful nature and is in need of salvation himself.

Not if he is Torah compliant......he would be righteous. What is the problem with Christ being 100% man, period? Nothing....he still is the Messiah, and God as God's representative on earth....

Another is that it implies that if we too are "Torah observant...thereby keeping [our] state of righteousness," that we could provide salvation for ourselves and others.

It would be possible as seen in Jesus' case. The Holy Spirit of God as seen in Is 11:2-3 provides Jesus with the God power needed to overcome his humanly obsticles. And, we can be righteous...just as Abraham was...Abraham wasn't a Jew.....and didn't have the Torah as a guide to live righteously.

This leads to the logical conclusion that it is possible for there to be many Messiahs, many Saviors.

Trouble is no one fit the prophetic criteria that Jesus did....and I personally don't think anyone has kept the Torah as he had.

So simple that it took 300 years plus to figure it out...and it still ain't figured out....I'm preplexed by folks are so stuck in the "Jesus is God" mantra that they won't even step back and consider any other alternative.....or, the history in which that theology was developed. Oh the defensive mechanisms kick and the blinders come up.....

Jesus' deity was officially accepted 300 years after his death, but the idea has been around since at least the early second century. I have considered many alternatives but they all fall short.

Free.....do you realize that our nation isn't even 250 years old yet? It's hard to visualize that Constantine was as far away from Jesus' time as we are from Paul Revere......that's a long time for false theologies to creep in.

As I stated to someone in another thread, I'll agree with Thomas that Jesus is "my Lord and My God".

Funny you should mention that.......
Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Check out the Strong's definition for God.....especially definition 4 and 4a.

theos {theh'-os}

TDNT - 3:65,322 of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity


1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

2) the Godhead, trinity

a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity

b) Christ, the second person of the trinity

c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

3) spoken of the only and true God

a) refers to the things of God

b) his counsels, interests, things due to him

4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

a) God's representative or viceregent

1) of magistrates and judges


......Sound familiar.....Jewish Law of Agency.....Memra.......?

[/quote]

 

[AVBunyan]

Personally, I reject the idea that man is born with a sinful nature. I believe that we are born with the inherent tendancy to sin, a tendancy so strong that apart from divine intervention one will always sin.

:o :o :o :o :o

 

[wavy]

:o :o :o :o :o

A string of these always makes me laugh.

 

[D46]

Personally, I reject the idea that man is born with a sinful nature. I believe that we are born with the inherent tendancy to sin, a tendancy so strong that apart from divine intervention one will always sin.

Surely you don't believe this in light of Scriptural evidence.

John 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Was David's mother a sinful woman? She, like the rest of us was born that way.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

 

[Khristeeanos]

:o :o :o :o :o

A string of these always makes me laugh.

:o :o :o :o :o




Anyways.

Do a search on Alpha and Omega and the First and Last. You will see God called AO and Jesus calls Himself AO and FL.

In Revelation 1:17-18 we read:

• 17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

It is obvious that God became dead and yet is alive forever more!

Praise the Lord!!!

 

[Georges]

Personally, I reject the idea that man is born with a sinful nature. I believe that we are born with the inherent tendancy to sin, a tendancy so strong that apart from divine intervention one will always sin.

Surely you don't believe this in light of Scriptural evidence.

John 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Was David's mother a sinful woman? She, like the rest of us was born that way.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

I was researching the Jewish view of "original sin"....and found this article in wikipedia....

...The concept some have of original sin is full of inconsistencies. For those who see the effect of the Fall as deprivation of something that is their due, the doctrine of original sin contradicts the principle, stated even in the Mosaic Law, that the children are not to be punished for the sins of the fathers.

Those who understand original sin as personal guilt and sin, rather than as sin in an analogous sense, are confronted with a yet graver difficulty, particularly if they conceive of sin as a matter of a person's soul as such, rather than of the ensouled body or enfleshed soul that is the person. Sin, they say, is an issue of the soul, but, if we inherit our bodies from our parents and our souls from God, then original sin, which is inherited with human nature from our parents, must be a matter of the body; or, if it is a matter of the soul, original sin must come from God. Martin Luther's ad hoc solution was: Do not listen to human wisdom, but to the holy word of the Bible. Logically this is argumentum ad auctoritatem fallacy combined with argumentum ad ignoramum.....


How many times on this forum and others....have I heard the line attributed to Martin Luther? I've never heard the latin terms after that.....but had a smile as I read about what they meant....

 

[AVBunyan]

I believe some folks don't know the difference between "sin" and "sins". Sin is what we are born in (Adam) adn the sins are the fruits of that sin nature in us. If there is not no sin nature then that means we all have a "spark of good" in us that gets fanned and then we can choose God - won't work. We are all born in a fallen Adam. Praise the Lord for the last Adam -

God bless

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:wink:

 

[Free]

Personally, I reject the idea that man is born with a sinful nature. I believe that we are born with the inherent tendancy to sin, a tendancy so strong that apart from divine intervention one will always sin.

:o :o :o :o :o

Do you believe in an "age of accountability" AV? Why or why not?

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Do you believe in an "age of accountability" AV?
2.Why or why not?

1. No
2. Can't find it in scripture

God bless

 

[D46]

There are many scriptures that back up the fact that Jesus is God despite man's intrepretations of God's word and his own ideas. Not that this needs any backing up as it is pretty clear to most. But, in the event some haven't seen enough....

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

GO IS THE ONLY SAVIOUR

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

JESUS IS THE ONLY SAVIOUR

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

THE FIRST AND THE LAST...

Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

GOD FORGIVES SINS

Psalms 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

THE GREATNESS OF GOD

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

These are not nearly all what the Scriptures say of God and Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. If anyone has a problem believing Jesus is God after this, you are deceived and blind.

 

[wavy]

1. Do you believe in an "age of accountability" AV?
2.Why or why not?

1. No
2. Can't find it in scripture

God bless

How do you view this then?

Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

 

[Georges]

1. Do you believe in an "age of accountability" AV?
2.Why or why not?

1. No
2. Can't find it in scripture

God bless

How do you view this then?

Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Wavy, I wish you would quit posting OT scripture....after all, the OT is moot....please show me anywhere between Acts and Revelation where it makes such claims.

 

[Georges]

The sins of the father won't visit there children? Original sin? Another Jewish, more like Kenite concept that, contradicts the Bible. Tell me did Adam and Eve die? Did they live much longer than Cain's descendent's? Probably? Why do you people argue this crap! Every time you turn to this, it makes you look stupid. You Jewish types just argue for they sake of arguing. And when there's nothing more to be said, you go out and find more controvesy in something else. Pitiful! Hey, I know what let's blame Paul for it!!!!

Hey Dopp...atta boy......great post....you told me :smt023 . Oh! by the way, if you don't like the post please feel free not to respond.... :wink: or feel free to respond with something of use..... Anyway, what is a good forum without controversy.....? Some learn from controversy...proving and disproving....some don't. Stupid....? :-D Stupid is someone who buy's swampland without researching what he's buying and who he's buying it from. But, as you are, I think, referring to me....as being a stupid, judaizing, Paul hater..... :silly: I've been called worse. I'll refrain from rebutting the personal attack in kind...I'll leave that to you..... :smt058

 

[Georges]

There are many scriptures that back up the fact that Jesus is God despite man's intrepretations of God's word and his own ideas. Not that this needs any backing up as it is pretty clear to most. But, in the event some haven't seen enough....

Wait a minute....."Jesus is God" as being part of a coequal trinity is man's interpretation, just as you claim the other views are man's interpretation....It just depends on which "man's" interpretation do you choose to accept.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Fantastic....God Changes not....a great truth...

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Fantastic...Jesus Christ physical image and agent of his heavenly Father changes not.....

GOD IS THE ONLY SAVIOUR

Agreed....

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Absolutely....

Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Absolutely....

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Absolutely...Christ as the Agent of God is our savior.

Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Absolutely...Mary is praising God not Jesus.

JESUS IS THE ONLY SAVIOUR

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

God is the only Savior, Jesus as his Agent acts on his behalf...remember the article you didn't read.....Jewish Law of Agency states an agent acts on behalf of his principle...If Jesus is a savior it is because God gave him the authority.

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Again...Agency.....

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Again....Agency....

THE FIRST AND THE LAST...

Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Absolutely.....

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Absolutely....Messiah was there at the beginning...he is the beginning of God's creation and he will be there at the end.....

GOD FORGIVES SINS

Psalms 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

THE GREATNESS OF GOD

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Again....if you study the Jewish commentaries on this verse you will find that it is interpreted "And the word of Elohim said unto Moses". In Jewish teaching "the word of Elohim" is the Memra....as I had stated in previous posts...Go to http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com and type in Memra....read the entire article and see how many descriptions of the offices and acts of "Memra" are exactly the same as Jesus....

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Again, Jesus as the Memra was present before creation....so of course he was before Abraham...

These are not nearly all what the Scriptures say of God and Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. If anyone has a problem believing Jesus is God after this, you are deceived and blind.

And everyone of them fits into the Jewish Law of Agency and the description of the Memra......

 

[D46]

Wait a minute....."Jesus is God" as being part of a coequal trinity is man's interpretation, just as you claim the other views are man's interpretation....It just depends on which "man's" interpretation do you choose to accept.

I'm not a trinitarian. I believe in ONE God who is Jesus Christ our Lord...God in the fleshly embodiment of Christ...God incarnate.

God is the only Savior, Jesus as his Agent acts on his behalf...remember the article you didn't read.....Jewish Law of Agency states an agent acts on behalf of his principle...If Jesus is a savior it is because God gave him the authority.

IF Jesus is a saviour? Jesus is our ONLY Saviour!

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

How much plainer can it get? It is a mathmatical absurdity to believe that there are three, separate and distinct persons in the Godhead.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

It is also absurd to believe there can be two "first's" and two "lasts". Yet both God and Jesus claimed this title. Is one lying?

Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Polytheism and monotheism are two seperate and dinstinctly different beliefs. There is but one God and one Saviour and that is Jesus Christ...the first and the last.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

God wrapped himself in the likeness of human flesh, offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sin in the body he prepared (Jesus) and in whose blood and atonement our iniquities and transgressions are washed away.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

God will someday open the blinded eyes of his people(Jews) and remove the scales from their eyes that they may see the one and only Messiah-Jesus Christ our Saviour.

 

[AVBunyan]

I am trinitarian as many of the greatest writers, evangelists, preachers and missionaries from the 1600's - 1850's were also.

I will say this on Jesus being God - Ii may be wrong here but I do not see in scripture where the sinner has to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved but...but....I believe that after God regenerates him he will believe that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh and is deity.

God bless 8-)