S
Solo
Guest
Nice post Free. Another case of rightly dividing the Word of God.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
I
Imagican
Guest
John the Baptist said:
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
I could spend the rest of the day posting scripture of God and Christ stating 'who' Christ is. Here are two that do this 'very thing'.
John,
If I misinterpreted your 'previous post' I apologize. I assumed that since everyone else on this thread seems to be of the 'same accord', that it was directed specifically at 'me'. If not, forgive me.
Guys, I take the Word for what it says, not what I 'want' it to say. It would be very easy for someone to offer their own interpretation of scripture and with the 'slickness' of words, convince others of this interpretation. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Matthew Henry, etc, etc, ........... were certainly capable of doing 'just this'.
There are certainly those that are inspired to 'teach' God's Word. However, there are many that have come and gone that attempted to teach the Word through inspiration that was anything BUT inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Would anyone argue against this?
After the creation of 'trinity' and the teaching that Christ IS God, there is no doubt that scripture can be interpreted that Christ is God. My problem is that I had no previous influence of these teachings.
There will certainly be those that will fault me for this. I consider it a 'blessing'. For my inspiration came from no where but God. Previous to my picking up a Bible, I was a doomed sinner that spoke more against God than your average atheist. Drug addict, thief, liar, fornicator, proud, loud, drunkard, coveter, blasphemer, murderer, you name it, that's who I was. Note, that's who I was and that's who I wanted to be. For some reason God saw fit to change this. NO, not me, I was perfectly content in my misery, but God picked me up and turned my life around.
I tried the 'church' thing and found that MOST of those in attendance were simply 'playing the game' without ANY 'true' conviction, indicating that they may not even know God or His Son. Said they did, but obviously lacking any conviction that might show in their walk. Not judging or condemning, just offering an observation. As I saw this, I realized why so many out there refuse to 'believe'. If the churches were my inspiration, I wouldn't have any.
Upon this realization, I began to earnestly study the Bible, it's history, and in general, the history of religion. It was at this point that I began to understand that 'religion' means little if NOTHING to God. Religion is nothing more than man teaching man what they 'must' do for a God or God's. Do you really 'need' this? I mean, for one to believe that they 'must' accept the words of men rather than the 'power' of God is to place the creature ABOVE the Creator.
After much study, I now understand the major influence that the Catholic Church ha had on almost the entire Christian community. I know that there are many on this forum that are aware of many of the 'false teachings' of the Catholic Church. I don't fault ANY Catholic for their beliefs. Just as I hope they won't fault me for mine, but, the hunger for power rather than a hunger for the love of their fellow man allowed them to fall just as Satan did. Many of the teachings of our present churches are nothing more nothing less than what came out of the Catholic Church. A very basic study of history reveals this, NOT rocket science by any means.
I can't help but defend what HE has offered to me. There is ONLY ONE God, Christ is the Son of God, our mediator. That which allows us the ability once again to be 'known' by the Father. I accept ALL scripture. I am unable to understand ALL of it, but this hasn't been a 'stumbling block' more of an incentive to continue READING and Studying it.
As stated above, it is very easy to 'see' what one chooses when discerning scripture. And it's very easy for 'new' Christians to accept ANYTHING offered by a 'more experienced' Christian. Doesn't make it the 'truth' though.
I confess that Christ IS the Son of God. I KNOW that He spoke of the things pertaining to God. I KNOW that He died and was resurrected BY God and now resides in heaven WiTH God. I KNOW that His power CAME FROM God. And I KNOW that God is love and that's what Christ came to offer, the LOVE of God.
Now, it has NEVER been revealed to me that Christ IS God. A part of God, no doubt, but so is EVERYTHING created. Even Satan, with all his deceptiveness and destruction of the souls of men, is a part of God until his eventual eternal destruction. And we too, are a part of God whether we choose to acknowledge it or not.
I could spend days testifying to the miracles that God has wrought in my life. I could spend days testifying to the revelations that God has offered. Suffice is to say that I am a 'new creature' thanks to God and His Son. Yet, for some, I am not even 'saved' for my lack of conviction that Christ WAS/IS God.
And Potluck, NO, I may certainly worship Christ without worshipping TWO Gods. I worship Christ as the Son of God. But I worship ONLY ONE GOD. And if this is difficult to understand, I offer that ALL we love, we worship. Nothing wrong with this as long as we follow the 'rules' of worship, for love and adoration ARE a form of worship. God NEVER told us that we weren't to worship others, quite the opposite, we were told to worship our neighbors MORE than ourselves. His command was that we worship NO graven images, and ONLY Him AS God.
Since this seems to raise a bunch of hackles among those of the Catholic persuasion, in the future I will attempt to refrain from offering my understanding of the relationship between Father and Son. And I say Catholic persuasion for they were the ones that started this teaching of Christ IS God, and through their 'iron fisted will', so ingrained this teaching in the minds of those that were under their control, that even when many rebelled against many of their other 'false teachings', this was one that was too deeply ingrained to 'let go of'.
But please guys, do not fault me for my understanding, (or misunderstanding according to many here), for I am nothing but another of God's creation, striving for the 'prize'.
On closing I offer this: 'Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it'. First, this statement indicates that all that find it still may not obtain it. And the important thing? Few. Either Christ didn't offer the 'truth' or He did. I KNOW that He did. The 'falling away' folks IS NOT a 'lack of religion' but a 'different belief system' other than that offered by God, His Son and the apostles. Beware of the teachings that you receive and accept.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
I could spend the rest of the day posting scripture of God and Christ stating 'who' Christ is. Here are two that do this 'very thing'.
*******
John back in reply to this post!
You did give some scripture above in that post! :wink:
I am old & also have this subject 'settled' for [myself] after much study. I do find the old stuff being said of it being Catholic, troubling though? Catholics also do not believe in abortion, so that means that you do??? And it is only the Word that has done this for me! Matthew 4:4, 2 Timothy 3:16, and I like 1 Corinthians 14:32 real well, + much more.
But about your above verses. In Psalms 1:7 we see the Godhead having Inspired.. "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto [Me], Thou [art my son]; [this day have I *begotton thee]."
Do I need to say that this is [was] prophetic, and that it had not taken place as of yet? But the [ME] is surely Christ God Eternal!
But be that as it may? (my understanding of the verse) We need to see in the N.T. (and I use the K.J. by the way) where it is now past/tense! We agree methinks that it is 'finished' as far as something being over with at least? (as you can see, John's mind goes a mile a second & all over the Word of God! Matthew 4:4 again!)
Anyway: In Hebrews 1:5 we see that the angels were not the subject at all, but it says .. "Thou art My Son, [this day have I begotten Thee] ... And *again, [I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.]"
Another GOOD VERSE is seen in Acts 13:33. And the MAGNIFIED Son thought? I gave this one another time, but I doubt that it was read? Or at least understood by most? It is the latter part of Romans 4:17. As the Godhead had an Eternal Plan in Christ being 'brought forth' as a Son, he also spoke of Abram in future prophecy also! What is NEW?? Ecclesiastes 3:15!
Surely see two here at least, in the [Eternal PLAN of Salvation!] And when I say Eternal? I am talking of IMMORTALITY!= *GOD. (not the immortality that eats from the tree of life with 'conditional' immortality, ok? is it understood of at least, what I am saying?? If not, check Genesis 3:22 with Revelation 22:1-2.
I am going to leave it here. I mostly just spin my wheel's it seems on this forum anyway.
But it was no personal flap by me meant of the individual poster in the past, but a constructive thought of mine I think? of at least of getting away from so much talk, talk & bring in the Word of God.
Just one more 'personal' thought, OK? You are quite right as to you being on the bottom of the pile with this point of view perhaps?? But as long as you are not censored or removed, or threatened in anyway, who cares??? See Matthew 10:25-28 for what one should expect in the days ahead, and all in the name of Christianity.
Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
I could spend the rest of the day posting scripture of God and Christ stating 'who' Christ is. Here are two that do this 'very thing'.
*******
John back in reply to this post!
You did give some scripture above in that post! :wink:
I am old & also have this subject 'settled' for [myself] after much study. I do find the old stuff being said of it being Catholic, troubling though? Catholics also do not believe in abortion, so that means that you do??? And it is only the Word that has done this for me! Matthew 4:4, 2 Timothy 3:16, and I like 1 Corinthians 14:32 real well, + much more.
But about your above verses. In Psalms 1:7 we see the Godhead having Inspired.. "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto [Me], Thou [art my son]; [this day have I *begotton thee]."
Do I need to say that this is [was] prophetic, and that it had not taken place as of yet? But the [ME] is surely Christ God Eternal!
But be that as it may? (my understanding of the verse) We need to see in the N.T. (and I use the K.J. by the way) where it is now past/tense! We agree methinks that it is 'finished' as far as something being over with at least? (as you can see, John's mind goes a mile a second & all over the Word of God! Matthew 4:4 again!)
Anyway: In Hebrews 1:5 we see that the angels were not the subject at all, but it says .. "Thou art My Son, [this day have I begotten Thee] ... And *again, [I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.]"
Another GOOD VERSE is seen in Acts 13:33. And the MAGNIFIED Son thought? I gave this one another time, but I doubt that it was read? Or at least understood by most? It is the latter part of Romans 4:17. As the Godhead had an Eternal Plan in Christ being 'brought forth' as a Son, he also spoke of Abram in future prophecy also! What is NEW?? Ecclesiastes 3:15!
Surely see two here at least, in the [Eternal PLAN of Salvation!] And when I say Eternal? I am talking of IMMORTALITY!= *GOD. (not the immortality that eats from the tree of life with 'conditional' immortality, ok? is it understood of at least, what I am saying?? If not, check Genesis 3:22 with Revelation 22:1-2.
I am going to leave it here. I mostly just spin my wheel's it seems on this forum anyway.
But it was no personal flap by me meant of the individual poster in the past, but a constructive thought of mine I think? of at least of getting away from so much talk, talk & bring in the Word of God.
Just one more 'personal' thought, OK? You are quite right as to you being on the bottom of the pile with this point of view perhaps?? But as long as you are not censored or removed, or threatened in anyway, who cares??? See Matthew 10:25-28 for what one should expect in the days ahead, and all in the name of Christianity.
I
Imagican
Guest
Thank you for your reply John, I had hoped that there would be no hard feelings and I'm really glad to see that there aren't.
I don't believe in abortion, but, I believe that it should be the choice of the woman in question and not up to me or anyone else to 'lock them in prison' if they so choose. Let's face it, there will be those that choose to abort whether it's against the law or not. I leave their choice in God's hands for they will one day have to answer to Him. I don't believe in the death penalty either. We certainly need to separate those that would murder others but doing the same to them that they have done to others is not what I feel the 'best' way to deal with their punishment. And, what if we burn JUST one that was innocent? Wouldn't that make EVERYBODY that condones the death penalty 'just as guilty' of murder as the innocent was accused?
Once again, sorry John, and please don't feel that you've wasted your time in your replies. I DID read your posts and ALL the scripture that you offered and appreciate your effort to offer your understanding. Thanks again,
MEC
I don't believe in abortion, but, I believe that it should be the choice of the woman in question and not up to me or anyone else to 'lock them in prison' if they so choose. Let's face it, there will be those that choose to abort whether it's against the law or not. I leave their choice in God's hands for they will one day have to answer to Him. I don't believe in the death penalty either. We certainly need to separate those that would murder others but doing the same to them that they have done to others is not what I feel the 'best' way to deal with their punishment. And, what if we burn JUST one that was innocent? Wouldn't that make EVERYBODY that condones the death penalty 'just as guilty' of murder as the innocent was accused?
Once again, sorry John, and please don't feel that you've wasted your time in your replies. I DID read your posts and ALL the scripture that you offered and appreciate your effort to offer your understanding. Thanks again,
MEC
Imagican,
The major problem with your recent post is that you seem to think that you are the only one in history who has approached Scripture without a Catholic bias and therefore your interpretation is correct. What you continually ignore is that the idea and belief that Jesus was God was around long before the Catholic Church and long before Christianity was even a legal religion. The people that came up with this belief also just studied the Scriptures.
What I cannot help but notice is that you have a huge dislike for the Catholic Church, and every church for that matter, which means you are biased against the teachings of those churches. Are you so sure that your bias isn't affecting your interpretation of Scripture?
And of course one can come to the truth despite having a bias, whether it is you or I, so let's cut out the bias arguments.
Another thing I cannot help but notice is that you had no rebuttal to my response to your posting of Rev. 3:14. It seemed to me to be a very plausible and likely explanation of the verse. I have clearly shown how trinitarianism at least attempts to take into account all Scripture concerning the nature of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Yet, you don't seem to be taking into account all that Scripture is saying, nor the many theological and philosophical problems that arise if Jesus was a mere creature.
The major problem with your recent post is that you seem to think that you are the only one in history who has approached Scripture without a Catholic bias and therefore your interpretation is correct. What you continually ignore is that the idea and belief that Jesus was God was around long before the Catholic Church and long before Christianity was even a legal religion. The people that came up with this belief also just studied the Scriptures.
What I cannot help but notice is that you have a huge dislike for the Catholic Church, and every church for that matter, which means you are biased against the teachings of those churches. Are you so sure that your bias isn't affecting your interpretation of Scripture?
And of course one can come to the truth despite having a bias, whether it is you or I, so let's cut out the bias arguments.
Another thing I cannot help but notice is that you had no rebuttal to my response to your posting of Rev. 3:14. It seemed to me to be a very plausible and likely explanation of the verse. I have clearly shown how trinitarianism at least attempts to take into account all Scripture concerning the nature of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Yet, you don't seem to be taking into account all that Scripture is saying, nor the many theological and philosophical problems that arise if Jesus was a mere creature.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
I saved this from another site. I thought that it was quite well put together.
And it might be of interest to some here. Maybe for a ex/member of the 'mother' fold? ---John
2Sa 22:2 and he said: The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
(JPS) The God who is my rock, in Him I take refuge; my shield, and my horn of salvation, my high tower, and my refuge; my savior, Thou savest me from violence.
Psa 31:2 (31:3) Incline Thine ear unto me, deliver me speedily; be Thou to me a rock of refuge, even a fortress of defense, to save me.
Psa 31:3 (31:4) For Thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for Thy name's sake lead me and guide me.
Psa 61:2 From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock that is higher than I.
Psa 61:3 For thou hast been a shelter for me, and a strong tower from the enemy.
Psa 61:4 I will abide in thy tabernacle forever: I will trust in the covert of thy wings. Selah.
Psa 62:2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defense; I shall not be greatly moved.
Psa 94:22 But the LORD is my defense; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
Isa 26:4
(JPS) Trust ye in the LORD for ever, for the LORD is GOD, an everlasting Rock.
(Isa 48:21-22 NIV) "They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts; he made water flow for them from the rock; he split the rock and water gushed out."
(1 Cor 10:2-5 NIV) "They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. {3} They all ate the same spiritual food {4} and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."
(John 4:10 NIV) "Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.""
2 Sam 22:32-33 NIV) "For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? {33} It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect."
(Psa 18:31-33 NIV) "For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? {32} It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect. {33} He makes my feet like the feet of a deer; he enables me to stand on the heights."
(Exo 33:18) "Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."
(Exo 33:20-23 NIV) "But," He said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see Me and live." {21} Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. {22} When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. {23} Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.""
Notice here, that Moses has to be hid in the cleft of the rock to be able to see God and live. It is that because our life is hid in Christ, we may someday see God in all His glorious splendor and live!
(Isa 44:7-9 NIV) "Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. {8} Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." {9} All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame."
Of course, this goes on and on and on like this, so we may know who is our Rock, but some men choose the man Peter to be their rock - I just do not understand it, but i understand what the Lord says about it - selecting the doctrine of man over Him.
Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Deu 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
--------------------
Grace, Peace, and Mercy unto you and yours
By: Sail2awe
And it might be of interest to some here. Maybe for a ex/member of the 'mother' fold? ---John
2Sa 22:2 and he said: The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
(JPS) The God who is my rock, in Him I take refuge; my shield, and my horn of salvation, my high tower, and my refuge; my savior, Thou savest me from violence.
Psa 31:2 (31:3) Incline Thine ear unto me, deliver me speedily; be Thou to me a rock of refuge, even a fortress of defense, to save me.
Psa 31:3 (31:4) For Thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for Thy name's sake lead me and guide me.
Psa 61:2 From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock that is higher than I.
Psa 61:3 For thou hast been a shelter for me, and a strong tower from the enemy.
Psa 61:4 I will abide in thy tabernacle forever: I will trust in the covert of thy wings. Selah.
Psa 62:2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defense; I shall not be greatly moved.
Psa 94:22 But the LORD is my defense; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
Isa 26:4
(JPS) Trust ye in the LORD for ever, for the LORD is GOD, an everlasting Rock.
(Isa 48:21-22 NIV) "They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts; he made water flow for them from the rock; he split the rock and water gushed out."
(1 Cor 10:2-5 NIV) "They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. {3} They all ate the same spiritual food {4} and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."
(John 4:10 NIV) "Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.""
2 Sam 22:32-33 NIV) "For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? {33} It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect."
(Psa 18:31-33 NIV) "For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? {32} It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect. {33} He makes my feet like the feet of a deer; he enables me to stand on the heights."
(Exo 33:18) "Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."
(Exo 33:20-23 NIV) "But," He said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see Me and live." {21} Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. {22} When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. {23} Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.""
Notice here, that Moses has to be hid in the cleft of the rock to be able to see God and live. It is that because our life is hid in Christ, we may someday see God in all His glorious splendor and live!
(Isa 44:7-9 NIV) "Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. {8} Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." {9} All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame."
Of course, this goes on and on and on like this, so we may know who is our Rock, but some men choose the man Peter to be their rock - I just do not understand it, but i understand what the Lord says about it - selecting the doctrine of man over Him.
Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Deu 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
--------------------
Grace, Peace, and Mercy unto you and yours
By: Sail2awe
J
John the Baptist
Guest
__________Free said:
John here: Are you one of the posters that believe that Peter is the Rock??
: Well, what do you make out of this Inspired verse in Hebrews 13:8 speaking of Christ Himself? "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever." How can we have an Everlasting Gospel & an Everlasting Covenant (Hebrews 13:20 & Revelation 14:6) and not have an Immortal Christ God??? + the below verses!
1 Timothy 6:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Free said:
********
Hay guy, I knew that. I was just funning with you. :wink:
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
Being "the" Son of God implies a more important relationship than being "a" son of God, but it still doesn't make you God Himself. In fact, the term "Son of" someone means you are NOT that someone, or else language has lost it's meaning entirely. One cannot be God and also be the Son OF God, and there be only one God. If that were so, the concept of "one God" would be no different than the concept of MORE than one God, except for the label, "one God". We can label something whatever we want but it is the description and characteristics of that something that make it what it truly is. Fundamentalist doctrine would make God his own father and his own son. This is an absurdity. It is not absurd to believe that there is a deity and that that God had a son who is also deity, but it IS absurd to believe that they are the same one God, because that sort of relationship is the very ESSENCE of polytheistic thought.
Also, do you believe the Pharisee's were always correct in their understanding and accusations concerning Jesus, or only when you believe they were accusing Jesus of claiming he was God?
R
Rick W
Guest
Son, Father... each term is used to get as close to something we can relate to. Sonship here doesn't mean the Father had a son for then we would need a wife if that association were exactly equated to an earthly father/son relationship.
Each verse must support the other, there must be harmony. It's our task to find that harmony not ignore or toss out the things we think doesn't fit. Without that the bible becomes untrustworthy throughout. So then by what yardstick would one then judge a verse as opposed to another? Opinion? Outside sources consisting of other conclusions, suppositions and theory? To do so would claim God a liar if one believes all scripture is God inspired. And if it's not believed that all scripture is God inspired then that places the bible right back into controversial conclusions, suppositions and theory again.
What does John 1:1 really mean when it says "and the Word was God"?
Who is the Alpha and Omega. And who is the beginning and the end or the first and the last? What was meant by..
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."
All these and other verses must support and be supported by the rest of scripture.
Or Acts 5:4
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Act 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
We cannot understand separation of the physical yet complete unity in the spirit. How can God be in two places at once yet remain whole? How can God create something from nothing? And for that matter how can Christ create bread and fishes from nothing? Christ displayed the power of creation also.
We just can't think in terms of physical unity, it doesn't compare to spiritual things therefore son/father is used so we have at least something to relate with.
One must address all verses instead of focusing on just one or two. If there's another way to reconcile all these verses of scripture to fit into something else other than the trinity I'd like to hear it. But not just this verse or that one.
Free said:
Each verse must support the other, there must be harmony. It's our task to find that harmony not ignore or toss out the things we think doesn't fit. Without that the bible becomes untrustworthy throughout. So then by what yardstick would one then judge a verse as opposed to another? Opinion? Outside sources consisting of other conclusions, suppositions and theory? To do so would claim God a liar if one believes all scripture is God inspired. And if it's not believed that all scripture is God inspired then that places the bible right back into controversial conclusions, suppositions and theory again.
What does John 1:1 really mean when it says "and the Word was God"?
Who is the Alpha and Omega. And who is the beginning and the end or the first and the last? What was meant by..
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."
All these and other verses must support and be supported by the rest of scripture.
Or Acts 5:4
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Act 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
We cannot understand separation of the physical yet complete unity in the spirit. How can God be in two places at once yet remain whole? How can God create something from nothing? And for that matter how can Christ create bread and fishes from nothing? Christ displayed the power of creation also.
We just can't think in terms of physical unity, it doesn't compare to spiritual things therefore son/father is used so we have at least something to relate with.
One must address all verses instead of focusing on just one or two. If there's another way to reconcile all these verses of scripture to fit into something else other than the trinity I'd like to hear it. But not just this verse or that one.
Firstly, trinitarianism does not deny that there is only one God, that is foundational. Secondly, trinitarianism also acknowledges the distinction between the Father and the Son. Thirdly, Jesus certainly can be the Son of God and also God, this is why he is said to share in the same nature but is distinct from the Father. Fourthly, "Father" and "Son" are human terms to make this more understandable and as human terms, they will fall short.Brad said:
John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God".
Which is why orthodox Christianity makes the distinction between the persons of the Father and the Son. Oneness theology on the other hand freely admits that Jesus is both the Father and the Son, which we both agree is absurd.Brad said:
Speaking of polytheism, "to believe that there is a deity and that that God had a son who is also deity" is exactly that. You have explained away one supposed polytheistic thought with another.Brad said:
But to say that a deity and his son who is also deity are the same God is not polytheism; polytheism is more than one God.
Don't confuse their judgements about Christ with a phrase that had a specific meaning to the Jews. If the phrase "Son of God" meant that Christ was claiming to be God, then that is what the phrase meant and is not a judgement. Not to mention the Pharisees disagreed amongst themselves and some even believed in him.Brad said:
I think the phrase "Son of God" can only be rightly understood from an Eastern orientation. If we were in the East I highly doubt we would even be discussing what it means. As I have pointed out, all trinitarianism is doing is trying to take into account all of Scripture.
Z
Zakariyaa
Guest
The Roman Catholic Inserted The Trinity
God The Father , Then You Have Humanity As His Children , And The Holy Ghost Are The AngelicBeings , You Are Useing 1John 5 ; 7 As If It Is Authentic When In Fact It Has Been Proven To Be A Distorted Scripture Nor Does It Exist In Any Of The Original Manuscripts I Don't Try To Discredit AnyThing
Or AnyOne I Just State The Facts , And I Am Only Interested In The Facts . To Answer Your Question . When The Bible Was In Its Original Language Of Aramaic ( Hebrew ) Arabic And Galilean Arabic , The Verse 1John 5 ; 7 , That Has Become The Foundation For The 3 Beings In 1 Concept Called
The Trinity DID NOT EXIST , It Also DID NOT EXIST IN GREEK , The Distortion With The Onset Of The Roman Catholic Church The Roman Catholic Inserted The Trinity Verse When They Translated The Bible From Greek To Latin I Purposely
Said '' Inserted '' And Not '' Translated '' Because , As I've Already Said The Original Greek Did Not Have This Verse . HowEver , You Will Find Some Greek Translation Have Either The Whole Trinity Verse Or Only A Portion Of It , 1John 5; 7 Is Surround In Controversy Because There Are Two Versions
Of This Verse Your Bibilical Scholars Say 1John 5; 7 . That Is Used In Most Bibles Today . Is Either Not The Origian Verse . Or They Say That Its Only Partially Genuine . There Have Been Many Arguments Between Scholars On This Subject When In Fact There Shouldn't Be Any Arguments Because The Original Aramaic And The Greek Manuscripts Don't Have This
1John 5 ; 7 , In It . The Problem Is They Really Don't Want To Admit That The Trinity Really Has No Basis In The Teaching Of Yashua , Making The Trinitarian Churches And Any Other Sect That Believe In This 3 In 1 Concept Obsolete , FurtherMore , In The Ancient Eastern Manusripts By George M Lamsa Which Is A Bible That Is Translated From The Original Aramaic And Syriac Language On Page 1222 , In 1John 5 ; 7 , You Will See That The Orginal Verse Says This ;...
Original Verse And The Spirit Testifies That That Very Spirit Is The Truth
Mistraslation This is he who came by water and blood , even Jesus Christ , not by water only , but water and blood , And theSpirit testifies that that very Spirt is the truth . And there are three to bear witness the Spirit and , the water and the blood ; and these three are one ,
Now , When You Read 1 John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible , You Will Read This ,
God The Father , Then You Have Humanity As His Children , And The Holy Ghost Are The AngelicBeings , You Are Useing 1John 5 ; 7 As If It Is Authentic When In Fact It Has Been Proven To Be A Distorted Scripture Nor Does It Exist In Any Of The Original Manuscripts I Don't Try To Discredit AnyThing
Or AnyOne I Just State The Facts , And I Am Only Interested In The Facts . To Answer Your Question . When The Bible Was In Its Original Language Of Aramaic ( Hebrew ) Arabic And Galilean Arabic , The Verse 1John 5 ; 7 , That Has Become The Foundation For The 3 Beings In 1 Concept Called
The Trinity DID NOT EXIST , It Also DID NOT EXIST IN GREEK , The Distortion With The Onset Of The Roman Catholic Church The Roman Catholic Inserted The Trinity Verse When They Translated The Bible From Greek To Latin I Purposely
Said '' Inserted '' And Not '' Translated '' Because , As I've Already Said The Original Greek Did Not Have This Verse . HowEver , You Will Find Some Greek Translation Have Either The Whole Trinity Verse Or Only A Portion Of It , 1John 5; 7 Is Surround In Controversy Because There Are Two Versions
Of This Verse Your Bibilical Scholars Say 1John 5; 7 . That Is Used In Most Bibles Today . Is Either Not The Origian Verse . Or They Say That Its Only Partially Genuine . There Have Been Many Arguments Between Scholars On This Subject When In Fact There Shouldn't Be Any Arguments Because The Original Aramaic And The Greek Manuscripts Don't Have This
1John 5 ; 7 , In It . The Problem Is They Really Don't Want To Admit That The Trinity Really Has No Basis In The Teaching Of Yashua , Making The Trinitarian Churches And Any Other Sect That Believe In This 3 In 1 Concept Obsolete , FurtherMore , In The Ancient Eastern Manusripts By George M Lamsa Which Is A Bible That Is Translated From The Original Aramaic And Syriac Language On Page 1222 , In 1John 5 ; 7 , You Will See That The Orginal Verse Says This ;...
Original Verse And The Spirit Testifies That That Very Spirit Is The Truth
Mistraslation This is he who came by water and blood , even Jesus Christ , not by water only , but water and blood , And theSpirit testifies that that very Spirt is the truth . And there are three to bear witness the Spirit and , the water and the blood ; and these three are one ,
Now , When You Read 1 John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible , You Will Read This ,
Z
Zakariyaa
Guest
The Roman Catholic Inserted The Trinity
Partwo
1John 5 ; 7 For there are three that bear , Record in heaven , the father , the Word , and the holy ghost ; And these three are one . Do You See How The Verse Were Distorted ? They Are Both 1John 5 ; 7 , But They Don't Say The Same Thing ! That's Because In Your Standard Or Revised Edittion Bible , You Will Find The Original , Verse 5; 7 Has Been Actually Pushed Up To Merge With Verse 5; 6 . Now LQQk At 1John 5 ; 6 Below
'' This is he that came by water and , Blood , even Jesus Christ ; not by Water only , but by water and Blood And It Is The Spirit That Beareth Witness Because The Spirit Is Truth '' ;...The Underlined Segment Is Really The Original 1John 5 ; 7 By Combining The Original Verse 5 ;6 And 5 ; 7 Together , This Left Verse 5 ; 7 Made It Conviently Free To
Insert The False '' Trinity '' Verse . Just In Case You Think I Made This Up . Clarke's Commentary Also States That In The Very Early Bibles , This Verse Didn't Exist Clarke's Commentary Says This About 1John 5 ; 7 ;... '' But It Is Likely This Verse Is Not Genuine . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Every M .S . ( Manuscript ) Og This Epistle Written Before The Invention Of
Printing . One Expecyed . The Condex Montfortii , In '' Trinity College , Dublin ; The Others Which Omit , This Verse Amount To One Hundred And Twelve . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Both The Syriac . All The Arabic , Ethiopic , The Coptic , Sahidic .Armenian , Slavonian , In A Word , In All The Ancient Versions . But The Vulgate And Even Of This Version Many Of The Most Ancient And Correct , MSS . Have It Not .. It Is
Wanting ( Missing ) Also In All Ancient Greek Father , And In Most Even Of The Latin So What About Those Who Say A Portion Of The Quote Is True , Then There Are Those Scholars Who That Only Part Of This Quote Is Genuine Once Again , Let's Go Back To 1John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible . , The Father , The Word , And The Holy Ghost , And These Three
Are One > The Underlined Part Of This Quote Is The Part That Your So - Called Scholars Say Is Genuine . Some Bibles Are Equipped With Notes And Small Commentaries To Help You OverStand The Verses You Are Reading . If You Have Such A Bible . It Will Most Likely Say The Same Thing . For Instance , On Page 1776 In The Ryrie Study Bible It Says ;
Verse7 For there are three that bear record in heaven , The father the word , and the Holy Ghost and these three are one .
Commentary 5 ; 7 - 8 Should end with the word record The remander of Verse 7 And part of Verse 8 , Are Not In Any Ancient Greek Manuscript . Only In Later Latin Manuscripts .
Now , They Say Verse 7 And Verse 8 Is Only Partially
Genuine . There Are Even Some Greek Translation That Also Supports This Version , But That's Because They Were Translated From English Back Into Greek 1John 5 ; 7 Was Just Another Way To Confuse And Add Another False Sect And Belief . It Is One Of Those Things That Are Kept Quiet Because That Would Be The End Of Some People's Faith And That Is Something That People Who Promote Religion For A Profit Can't Afford To Do .
( The Difference Between Afact And The Truth Is ; Truth Is Accepted Facts Are Confirmed )
Partwo
1John 5 ; 7 For there are three that bear , Record in heaven , the father , the Word , and the holy ghost ; And these three are one . Do You See How The Verse Were Distorted ? They Are Both 1John 5 ; 7 , But They Don't Say The Same Thing ! That's Because In Your Standard Or Revised Edittion Bible , You Will Find The Original , Verse 5; 7 Has Been Actually Pushed Up To Merge With Verse 5; 6 . Now LQQk At 1John 5 ; 6 Below
'' This is he that came by water and , Blood , even Jesus Christ ; not by Water only , but by water and Blood And It Is The Spirit That Beareth Witness Because The Spirit Is Truth '' ;...The Underlined Segment Is Really The Original 1John 5 ; 7 By Combining The Original Verse 5 ;6 And 5 ; 7 Together , This Left Verse 5 ; 7 Made It Conviently Free To
Insert The False '' Trinity '' Verse . Just In Case You Think I Made This Up . Clarke's Commentary Also States That In The Very Early Bibles , This Verse Didn't Exist Clarke's Commentary Says This About 1John 5 ; 7 ;... '' But It Is Likely This Verse Is Not Genuine . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Every M .S . ( Manuscript ) Og This Epistle Written Before The Invention Of
Printing . One Expecyed . The Condex Montfortii , In '' Trinity College , Dublin ; The Others Which Omit , This Verse Amount To One Hundred And Twelve . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Both The Syriac . All The Arabic , Ethiopic , The Coptic , Sahidic .Armenian , Slavonian , In A Word , In All The Ancient Versions . But The Vulgate And Even Of This Version Many Of The Most Ancient And Correct , MSS . Have It Not .. It Is
Wanting ( Missing ) Also In All Ancient Greek Father , And In Most Even Of The Latin So What About Those Who Say A Portion Of The Quote Is True , Then There Are Those Scholars Who That Only Part Of This Quote Is Genuine Once Again , Let's Go Back To 1John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible . , The Father , The Word , And The Holy Ghost , And These Three
Are One > The Underlined Part Of This Quote Is The Part That Your So - Called Scholars Say Is Genuine . Some Bibles Are Equipped With Notes And Small Commentaries To Help You OverStand The Verses You Are Reading . If You Have Such A Bible . It Will Most Likely Say The Same Thing . For Instance , On Page 1776 In The Ryrie Study Bible It Says ;
Verse7 For there are three that bear record in heaven , The father the word , and the Holy Ghost and these three are one .
Commentary 5 ; 7 - 8 Should end with the word record The remander of Verse 7 And part of Verse 8 , Are Not In Any Ancient Greek Manuscript . Only In Later Latin Manuscripts .
Now , They Say Verse 7 And Verse 8 Is Only Partially
Genuine . There Are Even Some Greek Translation That Also Supports This Version , But That's Because They Were Translated From English Back Into Greek 1John 5 ; 7 Was Just Another Way To Confuse And Add Another False Sect And Belief . It Is One Of Those Things That Are Kept Quiet Because That Would Be The End Of Some People's Faith And That Is Something That People Who Promote Religion For A Profit Can't Afford To Do .
( The Difference Between Afact And The Truth Is ; Truth Is Accepted Facts Are Confirmed )
R
Rick W
Guest
IssaEl21
Please. Your copy/paste method is getting as tiresome as the posts that got you banned at other forums.
BTW, please post your source:
http://destee.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3218.html
http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php ... post329540
as found in the "Apologetics and Theology" forum
Please. Your copy/paste method is getting as tiresome as the posts that got you banned at other forums.
BTW, please post your source:
http://destee.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3218.html
http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php ... post329540
as found in the "Apologetics and Theology" forum
Not to mention that no one has been using 1 John 5:7 to support the Trinity, Zakariyaa, so your posts aren't relevant to the discussion. If you have something to add to the discussion based on what has been said and you can do it without copying and pasting, then feel free join in.
Or you could also post this source:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/archive/index.php/t-22218.html
Ezraarah said:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/archive/index.php/t-22218.html
J
John the Baptist
Guest
--John here:
Yes, this is surely some posting! The thread is about the Godhead, right?
Do you agree with this [posted] type of 'second' hand stuff? Seriously, if this is the 'Spirits' way, then it has got to be the wrong one! Am I the only one that reads Revelation 18:4's bottom line message of being PARTAKERS of [anything?] evil?:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/archi ... 22218.html
_______________________________
jasonMarch 17th 2004, 11:36 PM
Then Reasearch Same .. Most Never Research AnyThing They Are Taught Or What They Read They Just Believe =Belief Is Ignorance . Belief Is To Ignore The Facts Intentionally Or Ignorantly When are you going to answer the problems with your "research" in the other thread ?
Or are you still running like the craven (='s cowardly) heretic you are ?
Yes, this is surely some posting! The thread is about the Godhead, right?
Do you agree with this [posted] type of 'second' hand stuff? Seriously, if this is the 'Spirits' way, then it has got to be the wrong one! Am I the only one that reads Revelation 18:4's bottom line message of being PARTAKERS of [anything?] evil?
: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/archi ... 22218.html
_______________________________
jasonMarch 17th 2004, 11:36 PM
Then Reasearch Same .. Most Never Research AnyThing They Are Taught Or What They Read They Just Believe =Belief Is Ignorance . Belief Is To Ignore The Facts Intentionally Or Ignorantly When are you going to answer the problems with your "research" in the other thread ?
Or are you still running like the craven (='s cowardly) heretic you are ?
R
Rick W
Guest
It's interesting to note that Christ claimed He was the resurrection before it even happened. God in the flesh could say that with certainty while the flesh prayed at gethsemane for reconsideration.
He claimed with certainty that He was the way, the truth and the life before He was even glorified. Can God lie? No. Can the flesh seek something other than the will of God? Absolutely. We, in the flesh, do it all the time.
Christ never said He would become the way, the truth and the life. He never said He would become the resurrection. He said He was, unconditionally. And that before His glorification, before the events even happened, before His crucifiction.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Christ acknowledges his humanity, his flesh. Yet, before the events occured His diety knew who He was and He said so.
He claimed with certainty that He was the way, the truth and the life before He was even glorified. Can God lie? No. Can the flesh seek something other than the will of God? Absolutely. We, in the flesh, do it all the time.
Christ never said He would become the way, the truth and the life. He never said He would become the resurrection. He said He was, unconditionally. And that before His glorification, before the events even happened, before His crucifiction.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Christ acknowledges his humanity, his flesh. Yet, before the events occured His diety knew who He was and He said so.