Bible Study Jesus is God

[D46]

I am trinitarian as many of the greatest writers, evangelists, preachers and missionaries from the 1600's - 1850's were also.

I will say this on Jesus being God - Ii may be wrong here but I do not see in scripture where the sinner has to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved but...but....I believe that after God regenerates him he will believe that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh and is deity.

God bless 8-)

Anyone who professes to believe in three seperate and distinct persons in the Godhead believes Justin Martyr also, who instigated this trinity doctrine in the 2nd Century, changiing the biblical forumula of baptism from the name of Jesus to Father, Son and Holy Ghost.


As for a believer trusting that Jesus is God...

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

If ye believe not that I AM - Here (as in ver. 58) our Lord claims the Divine name, I AM, Exodus 3:14.

 

[AVBunyan]

As for a believer trusting that Jesus is God...

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

If ye believe not that I AM - Here (as in ver. 58) our Lord claims the Divine name, I AM, Exodus 3:14.

The conext is the kinigdom age being offered again to Israel - one of the prerequisites for them was to believe also that Jesus was the Messiah that was promised. This message was to unbelieving Israel prior to Calvary - the message for us today is found in I Cor. 15:1-5 - a dead man who is blinded cannot believe spiritual thing suntil he has been regenerated.

 

[Free]

I agree with D46 that an argument can be made that one must believe in the deity of Christ for salvation, but I strongly disagree with Oneness theology. What is particularly interesting is that D46 is KJVO but must deny 1 John 5:7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Anyone who professes to believe in three seperate and distinct persons in the Godhead believes Justin Martyr also, who instigated this trinity doctrine in the 2nd Century, changiing the biblical forumula of baptism from the name of Jesus to Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Trinitarian type thought was around before Justin Martyr. Clement (late first century), Ignatius (very early second century) and Polycarp all have trinitarian threads throughout their writings, Ignatius explicitly stating that Jesus was God.

 

[John the Baptist]

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:52-59

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Exodus 3:13-15

Why did the Jews take up stones to cast at Jesus when Jesus told them that he was the "I Am" before Abraham was?

They understood Jesus to be saying that he was almighty God, the I Am, and this was blasphemy, a stoning offense.

Very sound post! So what did these ones think of Jesus Himself?

 

[AVBunyan]

but I strongly disagree with Oneness theology

Thanks free - I'm with ya here.

I agree with D46 that an argument can be made that one must believe in the deity of Christ for salvation,

Ok - then how can a natural man that cannot understand spiritual things (I COr. 2:14), and his dead (Matt. 8:22; Eph. 2:1), and is blinded (2 Cor. 3:4) understand and believe that Jesus is God?

God bless

 

[D46]

I agree with D46 that an argument can be made that one must believe in the deity of Christ for salvation, but I strongly disagree with Oneness theology. What is particularly interesting is that D46 is KJVO but must deny 1 John 5:7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Free-You can't disagree with "Oneness" theology if you believe Jesus is God. The very scripture you mention here (1John 5:7), is proof of the oneness of God...in that "these three are one."

Trinitarism by it's definition, is the belief in three separate persons and I reject that in that there will not be three gods in heaven-only one. so, I definitely do not deny the scriptures. We are told that "great is the mystery of godliness"(1 Timothy 3:16), and the godhead is a mystery that we all may not fully comprehend and to that I agree. I'm simply stating that there are NOT three separate gods here...only one, Jesus Christ.

Trinitarianism is inconsistent in the light of the scriptures. Isaiah 44:6 Revelation 1:11, Revelation 1:8, Mark 12:29, 1 Corinthians 8:4, 1 Timothy 2:5.

If God is one then he cannot be three. As for 1 John 5:7, John is not sayiing that one plus one plus one equals three, but rather the mathematical "one" is raised to the third power, i.e., one multiplied by itself three times (1x1x1=1) is still one. That's not Oneness theology, that's logic and scripture.

 

[Solo]

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:52-59

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Exodus 3:13-15

Why did the Jews take up stones to cast at Jesus when Jesus told them that he was the "I Am" before Abraham was?

They understood Jesus to be saying that he was almighty God, the I Am, and this was blasphemy, a stoning offense.

Very sound post! So what did these ones think of Jesus Himself?

The Jews who picked up stones to cast at Jesus thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, and therefore a blasphemer. They couldn't catch him in any trap, and the only thing that they could get him on was that he claimed to be God. They did not accept him as the Messiah.

 

[John the Baptist]

Wow!
Finally some can see that it takes 2 Timothy 3:16 & Matthew 4:4 to have a [complete] Everlasting Gospel!

But where did his post say that there is only one in the Godhead?

---John

 

[D46]

To perhaps put things in a different perspective, this term "Oneness" means the same...singleness for lack of a better word. In other words, the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are one and the same. The Godhead is not comprised of three spearate persons, but One Almighty God who manifest Himself as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and as the Holy Ghost in the church.

God made man a true trinity...three in one-body, soul, spirit.,but; he didn't give each man three bodies. Neither has God three bodies nor is He represented by three separate persons, co-eternal, co-existent. (Colossians 2:9). God, like man, consists of Soul, body and Spirit; but not three separate and distinct persons. We were created in the image of God, amen?

When you look at yourself in the mirror, you see only one person, your soul and spirit are invisible. The fullness of the Godhead -bodily, dwells in Jesus (Colossians 1:14-15). Just as you can look at yourself and not see your soul, people could look at Jesus and not see the innermost being of God and yet, be looking at the express image of God's person. Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

 

[John the Baptist]

The 'DOCTRINE OF CHRIST'.

King James Version

Public Domain Software by http://www.johnhurt.com

The Book of 2 John

Chapter 1

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

John here:

Just some material by me on this extremely important subject.

This Inspiration of John is Eternity Inspired & documented. The Books of John are seen scattered all through the New Testament. And he has penned John 1:1-3 that Christ is God. And we know that the Godhead are Immortal! So to have any 'Doctrine of Christ', it must include Eternity! And surely takes in the later created beings of other 'World' of Hebrews 1:1-3 & Hebrews 11:3.

Now, who understands the Doctrine of Christ?? Surely, but few!

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Me again:

The Eternal Covenant of the Godhead is just that! Hebrews 13:20. God does not change, not does Their Covenant that the universe is governed by! God is Love. And the Covenant is the Epistle ('Letter' of 2 Corrinthians 3:2-3 & Hebrews 10:15-16) of the Eternal Love of the Godhead to the universe. It is the only portion of the Doctrine of Christ that is directly given to 'mankind'. Isaiah 8:20 is mankinds total testing of any and all professions! This is all inclusive with the 'Doctrine of Christ. Compare John's Words of 1 John 2:4 for verification!! (emphasis on mankind! See Revelation 11:18-19 & Revelation 22:7-9 & compare Ecclesiastes 3:14)

The two tables of stone governing Eternity is Total freedom when Obeyed. Christ stated an all time truth to the tempting attorney one of Matthew 22:35-40. This is the Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6 & Hebrews 13:20) and Christ's Eternal Covenant Doctrine, PERIOD! 'On these [two] commandments hang all the law and the prophets'

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Me again:

How can one know the Doctrine of Jesus when they deney that He is God? It is not possible! See Matthew 4:4's 'Every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.' This is surely a large requirement into the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST!! And the 2 Timothy 3:16's All Scripture for Doctrine verse! Who was Christ in Eternities time, before His earthly comfirmation birth here on earth? This must be included in John's above & beneath Eternal Inspiration pennmanship!!

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Me again:

This subject requires the Holy Spirit's Leading! Romans 8:14. One best take His 'Striving' advise (Genesis 6:3) rather than to make shipwreck in 'selfs' Vain deceit. Titus 3:9-11. Surely this is His WARNING to us!? There will never be UNITY until mankind can surrender Vain self! OR 'OBEY' the below verses!! See Acts 5:32. Yes, that too is the Doctrine Of Christ!

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

You say that this is not about the Godhead and three seperate ones of a family? No, but this is first in priority, before one can get to second base, he needs to get to first base! Spiritually speaking, it is a required fact as is Christ's Word of John 3:3!

---John

 

[Imagican]

Ok, someone that has the insight, answer this one for me, please:

In the beginning upon the creation of man, exactly what does it mean when God says "in 'our' image"?

 

[John the Baptist]

Ok, someone that has the insight, answer this one for me, please:

In the beginning upon the creation of man, exactly what does it mean when God says "in 'our' image"?

****
Just one or two more!
"and eat of the tree of life and live forever" [CONDITIONAL] These two did not need the tree of life to be immortal. Also at the tower of Babel it say's again, 'let us go down and..'

 

[Rick W]

To paraphrase a study bible:

us... our... God speaks as the Creator-King, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court.

In reference to Genesis 1:26

and again:

The heavenly King speaks in the devine council. As a true prophet, Isaiah is made privy to that council, as were Micaiah.

reference to Isaiah 6:8

A true prophet was one who had, as it were, been made privy to what had transpired in God's heavenly throne room and so could truthfully declare what God intended to do.

reference to 1 Kings 22:19-23

 

[Imagican]

I guess I wasn't specific enough to receive the answer that I seek. So, let me ask another question that will.

Who or what was present in 'God's heavenly court'?

 

[D46]

Ok, someone that has the insight, answer this one for me, please:

In the beginning upon the creation of man, exactly what does it mean when God says "in 'our' image"?

Paul gives the answer in Ephesians 1:11..."In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." When God said let us make man, he was counseling with His own will.

Also, Isaiah 40:13-14 and Isaiah 44:24

God didn't need any help on consultation in the creation.

 

[John the Baptist]

Wow! It is no wonder 'Saul' was finally 'pricked' in his conscience after hearing Steven's TESTIMONY from Acts 7 & then Christ telling him what he MUST do in Acts 9:6! Poor young Saul thought that executing Christ's followers was following God IN DOCTRINE!! Amazing, huh??

Steven dying & FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST was 'Inspired' by Him to say.. "THIS [IS HE] WHO WAS IN THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS." Who was?? The CHRIST GOD One that he just had a part in having been CRUCIFIED! You might do a study on Gods way as seen in Psalm 77:13 & 'END' up in Hebrews 6:6 to see how it is all winding down, and where one can find God's WAY???

Saul's problem was what? It was in not BELIEVING that it was the CHRIST GOD that was IN the Wilderness Church, and it was in not believing in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST : (2 John 1:7) who he had just consented having been killed! Acts 4:12 And what is New God asks??? Nothing!

And there is more about the ex/'blinded' Saul, huh? :fadein:
---John

 

[Rick W]

I guess I wasn't specific enough to receive the answer that I seek. So, let me ask another question that will.

Who or what was present in 'God's heavenly court'?

Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshiped God,

The four beasts are described in chapter one of Ezekiel.

Also see chapter six of Isaiah.


Here's some reference to put it into perspective:

Many scholars understand this as poetic language picturing God as presiding over a heavenly council. While foreign to us, this is a common Old Testament metaphor (Psalm 89:5-7). The imagery is that of an earthly king surrounded by his court of officials (Isaiah 1:2; 6:1-2). The commands would amount to the issuance of a royal decree that heralds would proclaim to the people (v.9). Such imagery would emphasize the certainty of the announcement and the authority behind it.

http://www.cresourcei.org/isa40.html


And of course Christ.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The very first commandment of the Ten:
1. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

The Alpha and Omega claims "I will be his God" in Rev 21:7. And it's clear that Christ claims to be the Alpha and the Omega in Rev 1:17-18. Do we worship two Gods? No, only one.

 

[Rick W]

The problem arises when the entire bible is not believed to be true. Instead of searching for that which will reconcile what appears as conflict many use the apparent conflict to prove the bible is wrong. However, the belief that the bible is erred or flawed in some of it's messages makes it untrustworthy throughout. If there is error concerning the diety of Christ then how are we to believe what is said about Him much less what He says of Himself?
To this it then becomes a pick and choose methodology concerning scripture. If something appears to be in conflict then choosing only those things that fit rightly with a preconceived idea is embraced. In this manner a belief becomes "progressive" apt to change as ideas change. Many non-christian religions do this extracting from the bible only that which supports the proposed ideology. Mormonism does this as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and others. Each claims to be "christian".
Without belief that all scripture is God inspired, unerred in content, there is no way a person could believe the possiblity that Christ is God.

 

[Heidi]

No...not in the sense of a co-equal trinity.

Yes, in the sense that he is God's representative on earth, and according to the Jewish Law of Agency, he can be regarded as God without being God.

In regard to the OT Epiphanies, he is the word, or in Judaism the "Memra" the "creative word of God".

Good post. Jesus represented God on earth. Everything that Jesus said and did, came from God.

 

[Imagican]

Potluck,

I agree with EVERYTHING in your last post.

But, in the same respect that you offer this 'preconceived notion' concept, it works both ways. If someone were to 'tell' you that Jesus IS God, then, as you read the Bible, that is what you will 'choose' to see, if that's what you 'believe' to be there. The Bible itself states that there WILL be those that 'choose' to follow lies, and that God Himself, will offer strong delusion so that they will 'BELIEVE' the lies. Now I ask you, WHO started teaching that Christ was God? God? Christ? The apostles? Or man?

I had NO preconceived notions concerning 'religion' upon my exposure to the Word. I read it, studied it, and believe from this reading and studying that there is NOTHING contained within that offers Christ and Father as the 'same'. Christ as a 'part' of God, deity no doubt, but TWO distinct and separate parts, individuals, that have the 'same' will for mankind.

I believe that Christ existed 'before' mankind. This would indeed make Him the 'Alpha and Omega', the beginning and the end as concerns mankind. Much like the 'I Am', Christ is a 'part' of God, the Father.

And I do not believe that Godhead is ONLY Father, Son and Spirit. Godhead is ALL of God. All of His creation and purpose. Since we are not privileged to know or even understand all that is contained within God and His realm, Godhead is the term offered to 'label' ALL of God.

You offer a 'limited' number of scripture that you interpret as Christ 'being' God. I could offer myriad more that state Christ IS the Son of God. That They BOTH exist as individual entities. And, the Bible itself states that Christ WAS created, before mankind, but, with an indication that Christ has NOT always existed, but perhaps created FOR mankind.

I KNOW the Father, and I KNOW the Son. How? Through the Holy Spirit. For some to tell me that I MUST accept Christ AS God I KNOW to be a 'false' teaching. For, if it were true, I would KNOW neither Father or Son and the Holy Spirit would be 'out of my reach'.

We have tons of examples of Christ 'before' man, and tons of evidence of Christ 'after' this world. And in each of these examples, there is NO indication that Christ and God are the 'same'. In all these examples, the indication is that they BOTH exist together. NEVER is there an indication that at ANY point both become one and cease to exist in separate entity. Even in Revelation, Christ still refers to God, His Father.

And, Potluck, it has been the teachings of man that 'insist' that I MUST accept Christ as God, NOT the Word. When called 'Good Master', what did Christ tell those that called Him thus? When asked about His return, what did he tell them? Who did Christ ask to forgive those that nailed Him to the cross? And, where is Christ RIGHT NOW?

You answer these questions and you answer THE question of the 'true' relationship between Christ and God. God IS the Father of ALL. Christ IS His Son, I believe, in heaven and on Earth. Much like a 'manager' is treated by his employees 'as the owner', this doesn't make the manager 'THE owner'. I believe that this 'same' concept is what has caused the problem. Many, observing the 'power' bestowed upon Christ have mistaken the power for God. Christ Himself states that "HIS POWER" was bestowed upon Him FROM the Father. It really doesn't get much clearer than this.

How can it be considered 'wrong' to accept what we have been offered through scripture? Is not God capable of ANYTHING? If so, then how could it be SO difficult to understand that He created Christ for His purpose? And, that God creating Christ in NO way 'takes away' ANYTHING that has been offered through scripture. Those that 'saw' Christ, truly DID 'see' God in His pure and righteous creation. Christ offered the words of God, hence, He IS the Word of God. Christ died in the flesh and was resurrected from the dead, by WHO or What? For the sacrifice to be 'truly' offered, there HAD TO BE DEATH. That means that Christ ACTUALLY DIED. If He died, then someone or something OTHER than Himself had to be responsible for His resurrection. And upon this concept alone there is 'proof' that Christ was not God Himself.

When one studies the 'beginning' of this teaching that Christ WAS God, it is fairly easy to 'see' the error in this teaching. This teaching came from the hearts of men rather than God Himself. A people that were willing to 'murder' those that refused 'their' teachings. NO, not murder those that refused to accept God's teachings, for His teachings were 'forgiveness'. If these teachings had been inspired by God Himself, there would have been no need to murder those that refused to accept it. If these teachings of man had been 'true' teachings, then they would have been obvious to anyone that developed a relationship with the Father through His Son. Obviously they weren't, for there have been MANY Saints of the Lord that were murdered for their refusal to accept the teachings of man over those of God.

Once again, we see man insisting that 'his way' is more desirable than 'God's way'. So much more desirable that he would ignore that offered by God in favor of 'creating' his 'own' understanding. And then, instead of following Christ in 'forgiveness' chose instead to murder all that refused to follow 'their' teachings. And, continue to this day to persecute those that refuse to follow 'their way' instead of that offer by our Creator. And look how those that perpetuate this teaching of Christ as God treat their 'neihbors' to this day. Calling them 'heretics' and such for not accepting 'their' teachings over God's. Trying to tell the followers of Christ and His Father that they are 'not saved' for refusing to accept the teachings of man over those of God. Is this what Christ taught us? Is this the 'love' that God commanded of us towards our neihbor? So, where did this 'spirit' of persecution come from? God? Christ? Hardly. It's man-made theology for 'men' rather than the wholesome and righteous teachings of God and His Son.