Jesus is not YHVH

[JLB]

Jesus is never called Jehovah

That's because Jehovah is a perverted name.

Jesus is YHWH.

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

Why did you translate "LORD" but not "GOD"?
"Thus the LORD (Jehovah) my God (Elohiym) will come, And all the saints with You."

The point of contention was about Him being YHWH.

You already admitted Him to be God [Elohim].

That's why.

So, when you are comparing Yahweh and Jesus, you are comparing two different revelations, the earlier and less complete and the later and more complete.

You are conflating the two.

Lord is Lord.

Lord in the OT is Lord in the NT.

Same Lord, YHWH.

The King of Israel - The Lord [YHWH] Jesus
The Redeemer - The Lord [YHWH] Jesus
The Savior - The Lord [YHWH] Jesus

Old Testament -

• I am the Lord, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” Isaiah 43:15
• “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
  
• For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3

New Testament - I am the Alpha and the Omega,the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12

• Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1
• looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
• “Are You the King of the Jews?” Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.” Matthew 27:11
  
• Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.”’” John 19:21
  
• And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:16
  
• 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.1 Peter 1:18-19
  
• Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), Galatians 3:13

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

That's because Jehovah is a perverted name.

Oi veh! Still with that nonsense! So, tell me, how do you pronounce "YHWH"?
Jehovah is an English rendering of the word written in an ancient language that didn't have vowels.

Jesus is YHWH. Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

The words rendered "I am" in John 8:58 are "ego ami" not "YHWH."

The point of contention was about Him being YHWH.
You already admitted Him to be God [Elohim].

Ok, so you don't get it.

Lord is Lord.
Lord in the OT is Lord in the NT.
Same Lord, YHWH.
The King of Israel - The Lord [YHWH] Jesus
The Redeemer - The Lord [YHWH] Jesus
The Savior - The Lord [YHWH] Jesus

The word "YHWH" does not appear in the NT

So, I just put my two cents in to say I was surprised that this thread is still going on since it's essentially about nothing.

 

[JLB]

The words rendered "I am" in John 8:58 are "ego ami" not "YHWH."

Oh, you must mean the New Testament was written in Greek, and not Hebrew, since YHWH is Hebrew.


I'm sure Jesus was just making some offhand remark, and didn't really mean to say I AM.

AND

I'm sure the Jews who picked up stones to stone Him, as He said these words... Before Abraham was, I AM, were probably just having a bad day, and were frustrated with Jesus and His remarks...

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

 

[JLB]

So, tell me, how do you pronounce "YHWH"?

You don't.

That name was revealed in the New Testament, as Jesus.

THE NAME ABOVE EVERY NAME!

Joshua = YĕHoWsHuwa`- Strong’s Number: 3091

YHWH = YeHoWsHuwa = Jesus


Hebrews 4:8 - KJV
8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.


Hebrews 4:8 – nkjv
8] For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

 

[Jim Parker]

Oh, you must mean the New Testament was written in Greek, and not Hebrew, since YHWH is Hebrew. I'm sure Jesus was just making some offhand remark, and didn't really mean to say I AM.

Yes, the earliest and best manuscripts of the NT are in Koine Greek.
And, no, the word "yahweh" does not appear in any form in the NT.
Where the word "KURIOS" (Lord) is used, it is a carry-over from the Septuagint use of "KURIOS" for the Hebrew "Yahweh Elohim." (Lord God.)

AND I'm sure the Jews who picked up stones to stone Him, as He said these words... Before Abraham was, I AM, were probably just having a bad day, and were frustrated with Jesus and His remarks...

They were livid.

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59

You seem to be equating "ego eimi" and the English rendering of God's self identification at EX 3:14.
There, what Elohiym (not Yahweh) said to Moses is translated, “I AM WHO I AM” from the Hebrew "הָיָה הָיָה " which is transliterated; "hayah hayah."

Now, they would have been most familiar with the Septuagint which renders the words, "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", literally, "I am the One." (In fact, the words "ὁ ὤν" appear in Jesus' halo in Eastern Orthodox Icons of Jesus.

In any case, they would have concluded that Jesus was claiming to be God for which they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy. But there is nothing in either passage to support the notion that "ego eimi" equals "Yahweh." In fact, the name used by writer of Exodus to identify God in that verse is, "Elohiym", not "Yahweh."

 

[Jim Parker]

You don't. (Pronounce "YHWH")
That name was revealed in the New Testament, as Jesus.
THE NAME ABOVE EVERY NAME!
Joshua = YĕHoWsHuwa`- Strong’s Number: 3091
YHWH = YeHoWsHuwa = jesus
Hebrews 4:8 - KJV
8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews 4:8 – nkjv
8] For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

So, according to you, you don't pronounce the name "YHWH" but you do pronounce it when you say "Jesus."
And "YHWH = YeHoWsHuwa = jesus "
So you both do and do not pronounce the name.
Thank you. That's as clear as mud. (But it covers the ground.)

 

[JLB]

So, according to you, you don't pronounce the name "YHWH" but you do pronounce it when you say "Jesus."
And "YHWH = YeHoWsHuwa = jesus "
So you both do and do not pronounce the name.
Thank you. That's as clear as mud. (But it covers the ground.)

I guess you simply don't understand that YHWH can not be pronounced.

That's why people add letters [vowels] to YHWH.

Jesus is YHWH, and stated plainly that He is.

The Jews knew exactly what he meant.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59

Based on these passages, why do you believe they took up stones to throw at Him, when He said...before Abraham was, I AM.”

By saying "Then", the Holy Spirit is indicating the reason they "took up stones to throw at Him".


2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God... 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”Exodus 3:2-6,14


Did Moses see God the Father, or The Son?



JLB

 

[markathome]

You searched for 'ELOHIM' in the Bible... No direct matches for your keyword exist in the King James Bible.
You searched for 'YHWH' in the Bible... No direct matches for your keyword exist in the King James Bible.
You searched for "I AM" in the KJV Bible 337 Instances
You searched for "GOD" in the KJV Bible 4,118 Instances

 

[Jim Parker]

I guess you simply don't understand that YHWH can not be pronounced.

Actually, it was pronounceable in the original Hebrew but the WRITTEN language did not have any vowels.

That's why people add letters [vowels] to YHWH.

Yes, vowels are added to make it pronounceable today just as it was pronounceable in the ancient Hebrew language which did not have vowels. Spoken language predates written language. Spoken language always had what we call vowels. It took a wile for the writers of language to invent vowels or symbols to indicate vowel sounds. Otherwise we couldn't tell if "ll" meant "all" or "ill".

Jesus is YHWH, and stated plainly that He is.

In the beginning ELOHIYM created the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1:1 from memory)
All things were made through him (Jesus), and without him was not anything made that was made. (Jhn 1:3 RSV)
So, according to those scriptures, Jesus is Elohiym.

Did Moses see God the Father, or The Son?

What Moses saw was a burning bush. (Exo 3:2-3)
And when God spoke to Moses from the bush he said:
"I am the God (Elohiym) of your father, the God (Elohiym) of Abraham, the God (Elohiym) of Isaac, and the God (Elohiym) of Jacob." (Exo 3:6 RSV)
Moses saw only flame.
The scripture says that the "Angel of the Lord" appeared to Moses in the flame. (EX 3:2)
And when God identified Himself, He said He was "Elohiym." (Not your unpronounceable YHWH)
The concept of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God in three hypostases would not be revealed for approximately 1400 years and it would take the church until 381AD to get their collective heads wrapped around the revelation of God as Trinity.

Jesus also said: "I am the Alpha and Omega," says the Lord God (KURIOS THEOS) who is and who was ans who is to come, the Almighty. (El Shadday) (Rev 1:8 RSV)
So we may also correctly say that Jesus is El Shadday.


Jesus is referred to multiple times in the NT as "LORD". The word "LORD" was used in the Septuagint (LXX) whenever the Hebrew name "Yahweh Elohiym" was used. (The LXX is the version of the scriptures from which all NT references are taken.) That being the FACT, it would be more accurate to say that Jesus is "Yahweh Elohiym" than to say that He is "YHWH." (And we actually can't "say" Jesus is "YHWH" because no one can pronounce the unpronounceable word; "YHWH.")

But, since most New Testament believers do not regularly use the many OT, Hebrew names of God in normal conversation or writing (other than when writing or talking about the Hebrew names of God), it is most appropriate to say "Jesus is God" and, thereby, avoid the confusion in which you seem to have become so happily entangled.

 

[Jim Parker]

You searched for 'ELOHIM' in the Bible... No direct matches for your keyword exist in the King James Bible.
You searched for 'YHWH' in the Bible... No direct matches for your keyword exist in the King James Bible.
You searched for "I AM" in the KJV Bible 337 Instances
You searched for "GOD" in the KJV Bible 4,118 Instances

That's because thee KJV renders the Hebrew words YHWH and ELOHIYM into English.
If you get a copy of a Hebrew Torah, you will find the words יְהֹוָה (YHWH) and אֱלֹהִים (Elohiym).

 

[OzSpen]

That's because thee KJV renders the Hebrew words YHWH and ELOHIYM into English.
If you get a copy of a Hebrew Torah, you will find the words יְהֹוָה (YHWH) and אֱלֹהִים (Elohiym).

I've been encouraged and provided with excellent knowledge by your understanding of the OT Hebrew and the Greek NT. You are a blessing in this thread to help correct some of the misleading statements.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Actually, it was pronounceable in the original Hebrew but the WRITTEN language did not have any vowels.

That's your opinion, and one that somehow states that four Consonants can be pronounced without any vowels.

Yes, vowels are added to make it pronounceable today just as it was pronounceable in the ancient Hebrew language which did not have vowels.

Makes no sense. And can not be verified or proven in any way.

In the beginning ELOHIYM created the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1:1 from memory)

God [Elohim] is plural, and incorporates the Godhead; Father, Word, and Holy Spirit.

So, according to those scriptures, Jesus is Elohiym.

Jesus is the Lord God [Son], and is God, just as His Father is Lord God.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Clearly it is Jesus who is coming with the saints, on the Day of the Lord.

What Moses saw was a burning bush. (Exo 3:2-3)
And when God spoke to Moses from the bush he said:
"I am the God (Elohiym) of your father, the God (Elohiym) of Abraham, the God (Elohiym) of Isaac, and the God (Elohiym) of Jacob." (Exo 3:6 RSV)
Moses saw only flame.

Now you are just flat out denying what the scriptures say.

Moses saw the Angel of the Lord. The Angel of the Lord is the Son of God before He became flesh.

The scripture does not say a flame of fire appeared to him...

The Angel of the Lord appeared to him "in" a flame of fire...

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6

Moses was afraid to look upon God.

Not look upon a flame of fire.

Not hear the voice of God.

But look upon God.


And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1


Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


JLB

 

[markathome]

Well I seem to be having problems with the concept of even using Elohim or Alohim, since they both was replaced by Christ.
Jesus said "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

 

[OzSpen]

Well I seem to be having problems with the concept of even using Elohim or Alohim, since they both was replaced by Christ.
Jesus said "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

So, don't you read the Old Testament?

 

[Jim Parker]

I've been encouraged and provided with excellent knowledge by your understanding of the OT Hebrew and the Greek NT. You are a blessing in this thread to help correct some of the misleading statements.

Oz

OW!!! I had my hat on when I read that and my head swelled up 3 hat sizes!
Thank you for encouraging my behavior.
It is a bit dismaying that what I cut and paste is all readily available to everyone in every forum on the internet if one will simply take the few minutes to look for it.
It does help that I've been studying theology for 25 years as well as reading the Bible.
Thank you for your encouragement.

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

OW!!! I had my hat on when I read that and my head swelled up 3 hat sizes!
Thank you for encouraging my behavior.
It is a bit dismaying that what I cut and paste is all readily available to everyone in every forum on the internet if one will simply take the few minutes to look for it.
It does help that I've been studying theology for 25 years as well as reading the Bible.
Thank you for your encouragement.

iakov the fool

Jim,

Blessings to you. It seems to me that many do not have the ability to be careful Hebrew and Greek exegetes. So they misplace meaning with what they want to say. I'm referring to statements like that at #433, 'the concept of even using Elohim or Alohim, since they both was replaced by Christ'.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

That's your opinion, and one that somehow states that four Consonants can be pronounced without any vowels.

I did not say that.
I said the WRITTEN language had no vowels.
[Let's not get rude. WIP]
Thank you for sharing.

 

[JLB]

I did not say that.
I said the WRITTEN language had no vowels.
[Let's not get rude. WIP]
Thank you for sharing.

No sir, you plainly said in post # 429 that it was pronounceable.

Actually, it was pronounceable in the original Hebrew but the WRITTEN language did not have any vowels.

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,
I'm referring to statements like that at #433, 'the concept of even using Elohim or Alohim, since they both was replaced by Christ'.
Oz

I have been trying to get that idea across but have not succeeded in overcoming the dedication to the personal theology as proclaimed by the universal church of "what seems good to ME."
Blessings on your tribe.
iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

No sir, you plainly said in post # 429 that it was pronounceable.
JLB

To your statement : "I guess you simply don't understand that YHWH can not be pronounced."
I replied: "Actually, it was pronounceable in the original Hebrew but the WRITTEN language did not have any vowels."

I assumed that, from my comment, you would understand that the WRITTEN language had no symbols to represent the vowel sounds which existed in the SPOKEN language.

My mistake.

If the lack of vowel symbols rendered the word YHWH unpronounceable, then that same lack of vowel symbols would render ALL of ancient Hebrew words unpronounceable making speech in ancient Hebrew impossible.

Written language is invented AFTER spoken language is already in use. In the case of ancient Hebrew, the early form of the language had no symbols for vowels such as the symbols, "a, e, I, o, u, and y" in English; they were a later development. The lack of vowel symbols does not indicate an inability to pronounce a word but, rather, it reflects the early stage of the development of the WRITTEN language.