Jesus is not YHVH

[NeutralZone]

Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God, the only begotten of the Father.

• Just ask God the Father.

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB

JLB:

Hebrews 1:8 is not saying Jesus is God. That verse of scripture is a quotation taken from Psalm 45:6, and it applies to YHWH/Jehovah the Father in the book of Psalms, which is its original source.

Whenever the New Testament (Greek Scriptures) quotes from the Old Testament (Hebrews Scriptures), the application must be applied to the person at the original source. Notice who the expression "Your throne, O God" applies to at the original source.


Psalm 45:6-7 -- New International Version
"6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Psalm 45:7 informs us that Jesus (the Son) has a God who rules over him. There, it says "your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." Psalm 45:6 refers to that very same God as having a throne that will last forever.

Hebrews 8:1 merely quoted Psalm 45:6 in order to direct the reader to the original source--YHWH/Jehovah the Father whose throne/rulership will last forever. So at Hebrews 1:8 where it says to the Son: "God is your throne," that expression is not telling us that Jesus is God, instead, it is telling us that God/YHWH/Jehovah is Jesus' God according to Psalms 45:7.


NeutralZone

 

[NeutralZone]

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Revelation 22:12,20

JLB:

Revelation chapter 22 is talking about four different persons. I will identify each of those persons, whenever I mention them, with the same color:

1. PERSON #1 is John (the writer of the book of Revelation);
2. PERSON #2 is The angel that was sent to John with the Revelations;
3. PERSON #3 is Jesus Christ the Son who sent the angel to John with the Revelations; and
4. PERSON #4 is God (YHWH/Jehovah the Father) who gave the Revelations to Jesus, after which Jesus gave the Revelation to the angel and sent the angel to John so that John was able to write them down.

Notice Revelation 1:1 where each of the above four persons are identified:

Revelation 1:1 -- New International Version
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Notice that Revelation 1:1 says "God gave him (Jesus)" the revelation, proof positive that Jesus is not the original source of the Revelation and therefore, Jesus could not possibly be Almighty God because the verse says God gave the revelation to Jesus.

In my next post, I will identify all four of the persons at Revelation 22 by quoting scripture within that chapter where each of them is identified.


NeutralZone

 

[JLB]

Revelation chapter 22 is talking about four different persons. I will identify each of those persons, whenever I mention them, with the same color:

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12

• Jesus is the One who is coming, on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:9-10

• Jesus is the One who is coming with His saints.
• Jesus is the One who will punished the wicked with everlasting destruction, when He come on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is the Day of Christ, it is also the Day of God.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:2

The Coming of the Lord is the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, the Day of God.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 2 Peter 3:10-13


Revelation 22:12 is Jesus Christ the Lord speaking, as He is the One who comes and appears to all, so that every eye will see Him.

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, He is before all things.

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:17




JLB

 

[NeutralZone]

Revelation 22:12,20

JLB:

You are cherry picking words from Revelation chapter 22 that apply to two different persons--YHWH/Jehovah (the Father) and Jesus Christ (the Son)--but you are applying them to a single person, only to Jesus Christ.

PERSON #4 YHWH/Jehovah (God, the Father) is identified at Revelation 22:12 and 13. At verse 13, Almighty God, YHWH/Jehovah is called by the title "Alpha and the Omega." Revelation 1:8 identifies Jehovah as being the Alpha and the Omega.

You are attempting to apply Revelation 22:12 and 13 to Jesus Christ by cherry-picking the words "I am coming quickly" only to Jesus. In reality, the expression "I am coming quickly" is a promise that was made by YHWH/Jehovah (the Father), and Jesus Christ (the Son) is the means by which Jehovah will fulfill that promise. Notice below what you did.

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Revelation 22:12,20

I have news for you. Revelation 22:12 is a quotation from the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament, taken from Isaiah 40:10. There, YHWH/Jehovah (the Father) is identified as the speaker. Isaiah 40:10 contains some of the same words in Revelation 22:12. Notice below.

YOUR QUOTATION (Revelation 22:12 -- New King James Version):
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Isaiah 40:10 -- New King James Version
"Behold, the Lord God shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.


Isaiah 40:10 -- Darby Bible Translation
"Behold, the Lord Jehovah will come with might, and his arm shall rule for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompence before him."


NeutralZone

 

[JLB]

Psalm 45:6-7 -- New International Version
"6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Psalm 45:7 informs us that Jesus (the Son) has a God who rules over him. There, it says "your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." Psalm 45:6 refers to that very same God as having a throne that will last forever.

Hebrews 8:1 merely quoted Psalm 45:6 in order to direct the reader to the original source--YHWH/Jehovah the Father whose throne/rulership will last forever. So at Hebrews 1:8 where it says to the Son: "God is your throne," that expression is not telling us that Jesus is God, instead, it is telling us that God/YHWH/Jehovah is Jesus' God according to Psalms 45:7.

Yes God the Father, is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.

Here is the testimony of God about His Son -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

God the Father says to His Son: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.

Why would you think God would beget something other than God?

The Name that represents the Godhead is Jesus.

All the fullness of the Godhead, dwelt in Him bodily. Colossians 2:9

Elohim is Plural and refers to the Godhead.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You are cherry picking words from Revelation chapter 22 that apply to two different persons--YHWH/Jehovah (the Father) and Jesus Christ (the Son)--but you are applying them to a single person, only to Jesus Christ.

Jesus has the same name as the Father.

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB:

You are cherry picking words from Revelation chapter 22 that apply to two different persons--YHWH/Jehovah (the Father) and Jesus Christ (the Son)--but you are applying them to a single person, only to Jesus Christ.

PERSON #4 YHWH/Jehovah (God, the Father) is identified at Revelation 22:12 and 13. At verse 13, Almighty God, YHWH/Jehovah is called by the title "Alpha and the Omega." Revelation 1:8 identifies Jehovah as being the Alpha and the Omega.

You are attempting to apply Revelation 22:12 and 13 to Jesus Christ by cherry-picking the words "I am coming quickly" only to Jesus. In reality, the expression "I am coming quickly" is a promise that was made by YHWH/Jehovah (the Father), and Jesus Christ (the Son) is the means by which Jehovah will fulfill that promise. Notice below what you did.



I have news for you. Revelation 22:12 is a quotation from the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament, taken from Isaiah 40:10. There, YHWH/Jehovah (the Father) is identified as the speaker. Isaiah 40:10 contains some of the same words in Revelation 22:12. Notice below.

YOUR QUOTATION (Revelation 22:12 -- New King James Version):
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Isaiah 40:10 -- New King James Version
"Behold, the Lord God shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.


Isaiah 40:10 -- Darby Bible Translation
"Behold, the Lord Jehovah will come with might, and his arm shall rule for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompence before him."


NeutralZone

Jehovah is a perverted name for YHWH.

These scriptures you posted are all references to Jesus coming at the end of the age.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Do you believe God the Father will come at the end of the age with the saints, or Jesus?


JLB

 

[NeutralZone]

(Post removed, violation of ToS 2.1: "This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act." Claiming or teaching that Jesus was merely a "created being" may be a doctrine of groups such as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, but it falls far outside of the basic tenets of the Christian faith. Obadiah)

 

[NeutralZone]

Jesus has the same name as the Father.

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11


JLB

JLB:

You are reading scripture with Trinitarian lenses, and you are doing it by isolating words and ignoring everything else that is part of the context. Jesus Christ was not saying that he literally bore his Father's name. Had that been the case, his First Century AD followers would have addressed him as YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh. Instead, they consistently addressed him as Jesus or "the Christ". That verse at John 17:11 is simply referring to the fact that Jesus was using Jehovah's name as his authority.

When YHWH/Jehovah sent prophets to his people prior to Jesus' appearance on earth, he gave the prophets authority to use his name as a guarantee that what the prophet said Jehovah was going to do, it would surely come to pass. In fact, one of the means for spotting a false prophet in the Old Testament ("OT") was when the prophet used YHWH/Jehovah's name and claimed God prophesied such and such, but the prophecy did not come true. Below is a verse of scripture that confirms this.


Deuteronomy 18:22 -- American Standard Version
"when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him."


NeutralZone

 

[NeutralZone]

Off topic and personal. ToS 2.4 Address topic and not persons. WIP

 

[Free]

JLB:

I agree that Jesus is before all things that were created AFTER he was himself created. No contradiction with that.

There most certainly is. Looking at the passage:

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him (ESV)

If "all things...in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible" were created by Jesus, as Paul says, then that necessarily precludes Jesus from being a created thing, or the Holy Spirit lied through Paul. But Paul is merely echoing what John said in John 1:1-3:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

First we notice that, in the Greek, the Word, who is the Son, already existed before the beginning began. Second, we see that once again, "without him was not anything made that was made." This again precludes Jesus from being one of the created things, or the Holy Spirit lied through John.

You referenced Colossians 1:17 but conveniently skipped past Colossians 1:15, which clearly says Jesus Christ was created. The verse puts him among "every CREATURE." Since you are pretending that you did not see this the last time I posted it, below it is again.

Colossians 1:15 -- King James Version
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every CREATURE:"

DEFINITION OF "CREATURE": 1. something created either animate or inanimate:"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creature

Why are you using Merriam's modern English definition for a koine Greek word? If needed I can show you through scriptural use that "firstborn" can and does mean preeminence. It has to do with the idea of one who is a firstborn and the rights that go along with that. Please study how the Bible uses "firstborn" before making such claims and certainly before using Merriam-Webster.

Not to mention, if "firstborn" was to mean that Jesus was created, that would clearly contradict verse 16.

Jesus is YHWH; Scripture makes that very clear.

 

[JLB]

Reference to deleted post.

 

[JLB]

Jesus is YHWH; Scripture makes that very clear.

Yes sir.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


JLB

 

[Jesse Stone]

Start a thread in TWTS to question moderator action. ToS 2.14. WIP

 

[JLB]

JLB:

You are reading scripture with Trinitarian lenses, and you are doing it by isolating words and ignoring everything else that is part of the context. Jesus Christ was not saying that he literally bore his Father's name. Had that been the case, his First Century AD followers would have addressed him as YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh. Instead, they consistently addressed him as Jesus or "the Christ". That verse at John 17:11 is simply referring to the fact that Jesus was using Jehovah's name as his authority.

When YHWH/Jehovah sent prophets to his people prior to Jesus' appearance on earth, he gave the prophets authority to use his name as a guarantee that what the prophet said Jehovah was going to do, it would surely come to pass. In fact, one of the means for spotting a false prophet in the Old Testament ("OT") was when the prophet used YHWH/Jehovah's name and claimed God prophesied such and such, but the prophecy did not come true. Below is a verse of scripture that confirms this.


Deuteronomy 18:22 -- American Standard Version
"when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him."


NeutralZone

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.

It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.

It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.

And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.

And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,” And His name one. Zechariah 14:5-9

• Who are these verses referring to: Jesus or God the Father.

• Who is coming with the saints: Jesus or God the Father?

• Who is Coming in which the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it;s light: Jesus or God the Father?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Who is the King over all the earth?

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideshis sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34


This scripture in Zechariah 14:9 is a direct reference to Matthew 25:31-34

• And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be—“The Lord is one,” And His name one. Zechariah 14:9

• When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31,34

JLB

 

[Roro1972]

He was looking upon the Angel of Yahweh, not Yahweh Himself. Yahweh was speaking to Moses through the angel just as He spoke to Israel through the prophets. Isaiah said;

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:22)​

Does that mean Isaiah is referred to as "God"?

in v 1 it "Thus says the Lord" and in the following verses is what the Lord said. imho

 

[jocor]

in v 1 it "Thus says the Lord" and in the following verses is what the Lord said. imho

Wow! You quoted my post #115. That was a long time ago. If, by "v 1", you are referring to Isaiah 45:1, I totally agree that "the LORD" (YHWH) is speaking in that verse and in the verses that followed. The point is, He was speaking through Isaiah. However, that fact did not make Isaiah Yahweh. Neither does the fact that YHWH was speaking through the "Angel of the LORD" (Angel of YHWH) make the angel YHWH.

 

[JLB]

Wow! You quoted my post #115. That was a long time ago. If, by "v 1", you are referring to Isaiah 45:1, I totally agree that "the LORD" (YHWH) is speaking in that verse and in the verses that followed. The point is, He was speaking through Isaiah. However, that fact did not make Isaiah Yahweh. Neither does the fact that YHWH was speaking through the "Angel of the LORD" (Angel of YHWH) make the angel YHWH.

The Spirit of Christ was speaking through Isaiah.

The Spirit of Christ is YHWH, the Lord God.

The Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, Moses said He was afraid to look upon God.

Not hear God's Voice, but to look upon God.

And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

Three different scriptures referring to three different manifestations of the Angel of the Lord being referred to as God.

All three refer to the people looking at God!

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1


Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall belike God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


Then the writer of the book of Hebrews weighs in on the subject:

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

and again -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5,8


JLB

 

[Roro1972]

Wow! You quoted my post #115. That was a long time ago. If, by "v 1", you are referring to Isaiah 45:1, I totally agree that "the LORD" (YHWH) is speaking in that verse and in the verses that followed. The point is, He was speaking through Isaiah. However, that fact did not make Isaiah Yahweh. Neither does the fact that YHWH was speaking through the "Angel of the LORD" (Angel of YHWH) make the angel YHWH.

Sorry I just started reading this thread; Ill just be quiet and read.

 

[JLB]

Sorry I just started reading this thread; Ill just be quiet and read.

Please share your insights and beliefs about this subject.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16,17


Thanks JLB