Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Jesus is Presently King of the World

Drew

Member
Post 1 of 2:

Many Christians, perhaps most, seem to think that Jesus is not yet king of this world. One argument advanced to this effect is that if Jesus were truly king right now, there would be no evil in the world. This argument has a simplistic appeal. However, as shown elsewhere, there are many texts that strongly suggest that Jesus is indeed presently enthroned over this present world. So does the person who denies Jesus present reign based on the existence of evil have a point, requiring that we re-think texts that seem to suggest he is already enthroned?

No, such a person does not have a point. This particular objection to the “kingdom now†position is based on an historically inaccurate concept of kingship. If we are going to understand what it actually means to say that Jesus presently reigns, we need to appeal to some model of the nature of kingship. When someone says “Jesus cannot be reigning since there is still evil and deathâ€Â, that person implicitly appeals to a model where the king instantaneously solves all the problems in his realm. And that, as we shall see, is not likely the kingship model which the first century authors of the New Testament likely had in mind.

No doubt, the proponent of the view that present kingship is incompatible with the presence of evil will assert that since Jesus is specifically divine, He will be able to instantly and completely solve all the problems of the world when He is enthroned. In other words, while we can accept that a human king is enthroned even while there is chaos in his realm, at least for a time, this could not be case for a divine king (such as Jesus).

Such an argument is easily undermined by the fact that God’s grand plan of redemption, beginning with the call of Abraham and climaxing centuries of years later on the cross was decidedly not an “instant†solution. Was God not ruling over that creation during that time? Well of course he was. So one is being more than a little Biblically naïve if one insists that any divine rule must accomplish all kingdom objectives instantly.

In any event, the historical model of kingship that was ingrained in the mind of the 1st century Jew was one where kingship was decidedly a project that was implemented over time, and therefore not brought to full consummation the instant the king was enthroned.

Post 2 follows.
 
Post 2 of 2:

In AD 130, following a successful rebellion by the Jews against the Romans, the prominent Jewish Rabbi Achibar proclaimed the Jewish rebel leader, Simeon ben Kosibar, as Messiah, giving him the name “BarKochbarâ€Â, meaning “son of the starâ€Â. What happened next? They minted a coin with the year “1†on it and bearing the image of the temple.

Did the temple exist at 130 AD? No, it did not. The presence of the temple image on the coin tells us something vital about the 1st century Jewish model of kingship – it was conceived to be an unfolding and evolving project that accomplished its objectives over time. Hence the “year 1†indication and the image of the temple. Showing the temple on the coin indicates the direction that the kingdom is heading – restoration of the temple.

And this, of course, coheres perfectly with another deeply scriptural theme about the nature of kingship – the twin themes that the enthroned king will defeat the enemies of Israel and rebuild (or cleanse) the temple. These are the two main elements of the Messianic vocation. Think of David. He was declared king before all of Israel’s enemies had been defeated. And it was only after he was king that he planned the rebuilding of the temple, a goal that was only finally achieved during the reign of his son. Solomon. Was David not “really king†since those goals remain unfulfilled at the beginning of his reign? Of course he was really King. We need to think Biblically about the nature of kingship.

Returning to the matter of Jesus, we see how such a model is entirely consistent the thesis that Jesus is indeed presently king over this world. We too could mint coin with an image denoting the end of the existence of evil. And just as the Jews of 130 acknowledged that BarKochbar was king without the temple actually yet rebuilt, and just as David was king before the actual building of the temple, so too can we coherently assert that Jesus is King right now even though evil is still present in this world. Furthermore, this picture of Jesus as king even if all problems are not yeyt solved works perfectly with this dense statement from 1 Corinthians 15:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Just as with BarKochbar and with David, Jesus can be king without having instantly achieved all the objectives of the kingdom.
 
2 Peter 3:17-18
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. KJV

Joe
 
Drew,

Could it also be argued that to preclude the present reign of Jesus over creation on the basis of the ongoing existence of evil would be to preclude his lordship over the believer's life on the basis of occasions of sin?
 
Free said:
Drew,

Could it also be argued that to preclude the present reign of Jesus over creation on the basis of the ongoing existence of evil would be to preclude his lordship over the believer's life on the basis of occasions of sin?
I think you have a point. Probably many of those who deny the present reign of Jesus over creation because of the continued existence of evil would still maintain that Jesus is their Lord, even though tehy continue to sin. I suggest this would be inconsistent.
 
Many, perhaps most, Christians believe that Jesus only becomes king of the world after He returns. I will argue against this view by attacking one of its central underpinnings - the objection that if Jesus were presently reigning, there would be no sin and death.

My argument will consist in demonstrating that the Biblical picture has Jesus’ kingship preceding a kingship of God the Father in which we can credibly situate the final defeat of death and evil at or near the conclusion of Jesus’ reign. To the extent that this argument succeeds, it provides a model where the hypothesis that Jesus’ reigns in the present is not contra-indicated by the continued existence of death and sin.

Here is a text from Ephesians 5:

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, greedy or impure person – such a man is an idolator – has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Here is a text from 1 Corinthians 15:

But now Christ (AC)has been raised from the dead, the (AD)first fruits of those who (AE)are asleep. 21For since (AF)by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For (AG)as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ (AH)the first fruits, after that (AI)those who are Christ's at (AJ)His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over (AK)the kingdom to the (AL)God and Father, when He has abolished (AM)all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign (AN)until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be (AO)abolished is death.
27For (AP)HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "(AQ)All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When (AR)all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that (AS)God may be all in all.


Note how the 1 Cor 15 passage is quite clear – Jesus will reign first and then He will essentially abdicate that role to the Father. Now the Ephesians 5 text, by itself, is a little ambiguous – it could be read as either of the following:

1. “Such persons have no inheritance in the kingdom co-ruled by Christ and Godâ€Â
2. “Such persons have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ, or in the subsequent kingdom of God.â€Â

However, the 1 Cor 15 text disambiguates this in favour of the latter. In any event, the Ephesians 5 text is not needed for the argument – the Corinthians text clearly situates the defeat of death at the transition point – when Jesus abdicates kingship to the father. This conclusively defeats the objection “If Jesus were ruling now, there would be no death†since it is exceedingly clear from the content of the text that this transfer of kingship lies in the future. And even though the text does not clearly place the defeat of evil at or near the transition point, we have the degree of freedom to legitimately assert that the defeat of evil is only fully achieved at or near this future point.

In summary, the 1 Corinthians 15 texts paints a picture consistent with a kingship of Jesus that was initiated 2000 years ago and is on trajectory that will ultimately involve the defeat of evil and death before Jesus turns the crown over to God the Father.

This means, of course, that the present existence of both death and evil in no way undermines the proposal that Jesus presently reigns.
 
I probably should not post about this topic since I have not read the full commentary. That is just too much to read to get to a single point, for me anyway.

But I get the basics of the topic I think.

I do not believe that Jesus is presently the king of the world, and it is not because of the evil and suffering still in the world. It is because the Bible is telling us that He is the king of Heaven. When He gathers His church and returns to earth, then He will be king of the world.
 
I am likely not one to speak on this matter....so I will make my response brief. Like others, I do not believe Jesus is presently king for He has not yet returned. Nor has the devil been completely defeated. From what I understand Christ's kingdom will not be fully established until after the rapture and so forth. Then....what I understand from Revelation could be wrong. It is something worth praying over.
 
Michae1 said:
It is because the Bible is telling us that He is the king of Heaven. When He gathers His church and returns to earth, then He will be king of the world.
Why would you think that His being King of Heaven precludes His being also King of the Earth? In fact, this text from Matthew shows that He is both:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Note the tense - authority has already been given to Him. And is His authority limited to heaven?

Clearly not.
 
LostLamb said:
I am likely not one to speak on this matter....so I will make my response brief. Like others, I do not believe Jesus is presently king for He has not yet returned.
Why does Jesus have to be physically present to be King? Again, we need to think of what the 1st century model of kingship was - Ceasar was held to be king over distant lands he would never visit.

LostLamb said:
Nor has the devil been completely defeated.
Again, what is your scriptural justification that the devil must be completely defeated in order for Jesus to be King. I have just provided a detailed scriptural argument that this is not the case. You should really engage my argument and show how it is mistaken.
 
Drew

The ruler of this world is Satan. Therefore Jesus is not the king of the world. The millenial reign will begin when Jesus returns.

Jesus said the kingdom God gave him is not of this world. Certainly Christ reigns within; he rules our heart and soul and mind.
 
MarkT said:
Drew

The ruler of this world is Satan. Therefore Jesus is not the king of the world. The millenial reign will begin when Jesus returns.

Jesus said the kingdom God gave him is not of this world. Certainly Christ reigns within; he rules our heart and soul and mind.

Well said, Mark. Amen. Satan is the ruler of this world.

People who insist on Jesus is reigning this world now are ignoring the fact is that Jesus is prince of peace. There is no peace in this world. This world is hateful because satan is ruling this world, it is so simple.

.
 
MarkT said:
Drew

The ruler of this world is Satan. Therefore Jesus is not the king of the world. The millenial reign will begin when Jesus returns.

Jesus said the kingdom God gave him is not of this world. Certainly Christ reigns within; he rules our heart and soul and mind.

Amen....will be reviewing scriptures to hopefully share them later today after I have returned from my morning shift.
 
shad said:
MarkT said:
Drew

The ruler of this world is Satan. Therefore Jesus is not the king of the world. The millenial reign will begin when Jesus returns.

Jesus said the kingdom God gave him is not of this world. Certainly Christ reigns within; he rules our heart and soul and mind.

Well said, Mark. Amen. Satan is the ruler of this world.

People who insist on Jesus is reigning this world now are ignoring the fact is that Jesus is prince of peace. There is no peace in this world. This world is hateful because satan is ruling this world, it is so simple.

.

There's peace in our heart. But we are not of this world. Jesus said, 'now shall the ruler of this world be cast out'. John 12:31 Was he saying Christ will be cast out? Was he saying the truth will be cast out? No. The liar will be cast out. Jesus was not refering to himself when he said 'the ruler of this world' shall be cast out. The ruler of this world is the liar Satan. Christ is the truth; the one who casts out Satan. He is the way, and the truth, and the life. John 14:6 The truth in Christ reigns in our heart and soul and mind.
 
MarkT said:
Drew

The ruler of this world is Satan. Therefore Jesus is not the king of the world. The millenial reign will begin when Jesus returns.
I believe that you are mistaken. Please show us any scriptural texts that have Satan presently in the position of "lord of the world" or "king of the world".

MarkT said:
Jesus said the kingdom God gave him is not of this world. Certainly Christ reigns within; he rules our heart and soul and mind.
This is one of the biggest errors in Christendom today - the misreading of that verse from John 18.

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."


In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€Â

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.
 
shad said:
People who insist on Jesus is reigning this world now are ignoring the fact is that Jesus is prince of peace. There is no peace in this world. This world is hateful because satan is ruling this world, it is so simple.
Your position has been clearly refuted in this very thread.

I make an assertion and defend it with an argument.

You make an assertion and do not defend it.
 
MarkT said:
There's peace in our heart. But we are not of this world. Jesus said, 'now shall the ruler of this world be cast out'. John 12:31 Was he saying Christ will be cast out? Was he saying the truth will be cast out? No. The liar will be cast out. Jesus was not refering to himself when he said 'the ruler of this world' shall be cast out. The ruler of this world is the liar Satan. Christ is the truth; the one who casts out Satan. He is the way, and the truth, and the life. John 14:6 The truth in Christ reigns in our heart and soul and mind.
You are making my case for me.

You are completey correct - the ruler of this world was Satan at the time that Jesus said these things.

And Satan was indeed cast out - at the cross:

15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him

From context, this is an allusion to events at the cross.
 
Let's remember. Jesus told His followers that all authority in heaven and on earth had already been given to Him.

So there is no question that Jesus is presently king of this world.

The interesting question is this: What motivates so many people to deny the scriptures on this matter?
 
1 The heavens are Yours, the earth also is Yours; The world and all its fullness, You have founded them.

The world is God's, the universe is God's......but He allows the rule of Satan over the earth...for now! The devil is being used as an adversary. It is up to disciples to shine for Christ and be a light in the present darkness. This is the training ground of the saints. We are not yet ruling and reigning in our glorified bodies yet.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


The Father has always been the God above all. This position has been given to Jesus Christ. Yet the rule of Jesus has not yet begun in the earth. Jesus limits Himself to the faithfulness of the saints in this regard. But a time is soon coming when Jesus Christ will come in glory and subject the nations to His rule.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 
Back
Top