Jesus is Presently King of the World

[Vic C.]

Some scripture to ponder over in light of Drew's last sentence or two.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1 Cor 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(yes, I realize Josh has already posted that scripture)

 

[Joe67]

Vic C.,

Truly, the last enemy to be destroyed is death and it is destroyed by swallowing it.

1 Cor 15:54-57
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

verse 57 is the same witness as in Romans 7:24,25.

Joe

 

[Michae1]

It is because the Bible is telling us that He is the king of Heaven. When He gathers His church and returns to earth, then He will be king of the world.

Why would you think that His being King of Heaven precludes His being also King of the Earth? In fact, this text from Matthew shows that He is both:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Note the tense - authority has already been given to Him. And is His authority limited to heaven?

Clearly not.

I do not believe that "authority" in this case is implied to being a king, but rather the authority to judge. And yes it is past tense because Jesus said these words after his resurrection.

Anyway it looks like from your later post that we are both in agreement.

 

[LostSoul]

This will likely be disregarded as foolish ramblings or meaningless babble but....here goes.

To me...though I understand not all will share this understanding....why would Jesus need return if the earth was already His as a whole? To save us again from the cluthes of the evil powers satan inhibits over us? For I do believe Satan was given dominion over the earth. Scripture itself states that Jesus will return and establish His eternal kingdom. Though as I said in a previous post...I could be wrong. I have only begun to investigate websites stating that I am or could be in error.

Not sure how credible this is...but for the sake of sharing....this is something I have read on that seems to be in agreement with the various interpretations here given by Drew, and one or two others.

http://mikeblume.com/isrule.htm

Any thoughts anyone?

 

[Drew]

Scripture itself states that Jesus will return and establish His eternal kingdom.

I think you will find no statement in the Scriptures that asserts that Jesus only becomes King at His return,

Or at least what you think is a statement of a future enthronement will be easily shown to refer to something that has already happened.

 

[LostSoul]

Scripture itself states that Jesus will return and establish His eternal kingdom.

I think you will find no statement in the Scriptures that asserts that Jesus only becomes King at His return,

Or at least what you think is a statement of a future enthronement will be easily shown to refer to something that has already happened.

If you took the time to read the entirity of my post you would have read that I am not asserting that I am fully correct here. Even provided a link I came across in my research.

 

[MarkT]

Drew

This world is about sin and death. Jesus overcame the world. John 16:33 He overcame sin and death.

Jesus Christ will rule during the millenial reign but until he comes there is no reason to say Jesus is the ruler of this world - which hates him, by the way. Jesus said the world loves its own. It hated him. John 15:18 Does it make sense to say Jesus is the ruler of this world that hates him, and at the same time say the day of wrath is coming? The world doesn't know him. But it will. Satan will be thrown into prison for a thousand years. What did Jesus say about the world? He said the world would pass away. Mt. 24:35

He spoke of a new world. Mt. 19:28 And he said all causes of sin and all evil doers would be gathered out of the kingdom. Mt. 13:41

According to Luke, all the kingdoms of the world, past and present and future, were delivered to Satan. 'And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. Luke 4:5,6

Jesus called him the ruler of this world. There is one reference to Satan being cast out in Luke - 'I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven' Luke 10:18 This was after the seventy returned saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name.'

And again Jesus said, 'Now shall the ruler of this world be cast out.'

Now whether Jesus was saying Satan would be cast out of heaven or out of the kingdom, I don't know. Perhaps it's the same thing. Still he calls him the ruler of this world.

 

[MarkT]

Now it's true Jesus has the power and the authority to cast out Satan/demons and he has the judgment (though he wasn't sent to judge) to judge the world - that won't happen until he returns and that won't happen until the whole world hears the gospel.

But in a sense you are saying Jesus is the king of the world and meaning Satan is not the ruler of this world. I would agree Christ is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. But Jesus said his kingship was not of this world. John 18:36 Since we are talking about the world and not kings and lords, I would still call Satan the ruler of this world as Jesus did.

 

[Joe67]

Jesus' kingdom is a kingdom of suffering.

The imitation of Jesus abhors suffering as Jesus suffered.

Suffer it, to be so.

Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. KJV

He became obedient unto death, not willingly on his part, but by reason of his Father's will.

The Father has planned from the beginning that the Body of Jesus should be conformed to Jesus' image in heart and mind.

At Sinai, the grace of God made them feel like they were dying, and they turned from the holy commandment through unbelief against the spirit of resurrection. They turned back to Egypt in their hearts and worshiped a golden calf, the glory of the flesh, the glory of this present world, and they were bound under the worship of the host of heaven, the worshiping of angels.

If Jesus' kingdom was of this world, then his servants would have fought to deliver him from the Jews. Peter tried, but Jesus told him to put up his sword. Human legislation will always resort to some form of violence to achieve its "good" goals. "Good" has no hope of resurrection, but will fight to maintain its ownership of this material world. This is spiritual adultery. It is forgivable but it will suffer loss. Its labors will be burned. They are saved as by fire. Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. KJV

Rom 7:3
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: KJV

Joe

 

[shad]

There is so much suffering and wickedness in the world because satan is the ruler of this world. The world's wickedness will increase until Jesus starts reigning this world.

It is that simple. Most of you are making it complicated than actually is.

.

 

[Drew]

Drew

This world is about sin and death. Jesus overcame the world. John 16:33 He overcame sin and death.

Jesus Christ will rule during the millenial reign but until he comes there is no reason to say Jesus is the ruler of this world - which hates him, by the way.

Of course the world hates Him - but that does not mean that he is not KIng. Plenty of people hated Ceasar but did that mean he was not king? Of course not. There are many clear scriptural proofs that Jesus is presently King. Here is just one:

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His (calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

It really amazes me that people can read this and not understand that a clear assertion is being made that Jesus rules in this age ("not only in this age") and rules over this earth ("all authortiy and power and domninion").

MarkT - please explain how you read this text differently. How does "all authority" mean "all authority except over the cosmos"? Or how does "in this age" become "only in the future"? I am deeply interested in kwowing how your thinking works here.

 

[Drew]

Hi MarkT (and others who deny the present kingship of Jesus):

I am very interested in knowing how you justify taking this text:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth".

....and make it mean either this:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven but not on earth".

or

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and and will, in the future, be given to me on earth".

Do you really feel justified in making these changes? Do you not believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures?

 

[Drew]

According to Luke, all the kingdoms of the world, past and present and future, were delivered to Satan. 'And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. Luke 4:5,6

Jesus called him the ruler of this world.

How many times must we go through this?

Yes, Satan was ruler of the world. But we are talking about what is the case now.

 

[Drew]

But Jesus said his kingship was not of this world. John 18:36 Since we are talking about the world and not kings and lords, I would still call Satan the ruler of this world as Jesus did.

Yeeeeeeeaaaaarrrrghhhhh!!!!!

Please do not take this as directed at you, but this verse has been dealt with over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

One more time:

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€Â

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.

 

[LostSoul]

Think this is becoming a thread of "I am right...you are wrong...." In the long run talking down to each other like that is not going to get anywhere.

 

[Drew]

There exist this idea that Jesus cannot be King right now because there is suffering and wickedness in the world.

The key text is this one:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Now please people, summon those neurons together and let's go through this:

1. The assertion is that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness;

2. Paul says that Jesus must reign until all enemies have been defeated;

3. This means that, at some points in his reign, there will remain undefeated enemies, yet to be defeated.

4. Suffering and wickedness are two possible candidates - two of the enemies that, at some point in the reign, could remain undefeated.

5. That point could be the present time.

6. Therefore the assertion that that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness is overturned.

 

[Free]

There is so much suffering and wickedness in the world because satan is the ruler of this world. The world's wickedness will increase until Jesus starts reigning this world.

It is that simple. Most of you are making it complicated than actually is.

.

Two questions:

1. Is Jesus Lord of your life?
2. Do you sin?

36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

I agree. He certainly seems to be saying his kingdom is about a different way of doing things.

The worldly way of doing things would have been to use force to overthrow the ruling authorities to establish a kingdom. And that is exactly what the Jews thought the Messiah would do and one of the reasons many Jews currently don't accept Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[Vic C.]

Think this is becoming a thread of "I am right...you are wrong...." In the long run talking down to each other like that is not going to get anywhere.

You have a point Danielle. :yes

Also Drew, you have just made five of the last seven posts. At least give others a chance to voice their beliefs too. Thanks.

 

[LostSoul]

Think this is becoming a thread of "I am right...you are wrong...." In the long run talking down to each other like that is not going to get anywhere.

You have a point Danielle. :yes

Also Drew, you have just made five of the last seven posts. At least give others a chance to voice their beliefs too. Thanks.

Thank you Vic...have long given up on responding to the discussed topic for my posts amongst a couple other's are not being read. Hope this discussion is simply that. Also that it proves to be enlightening...

 

[Drew]

Some seem offended by my tone. Well, it is borne of frustration - of habitual refusal on the part of others to engage arguments I post, as if, for example "I don;t care what the proper interpretation of John 18:36 is, I am going to choose to read it is a statement that Jesus' kingdom is not an earthly kingdom"

I have debunked the John 18:36 argument against the present kingship of Jesus many times. What is so frustrating is that people never challenge my argument and yet they seem perfectly content to live with their position as if it was simply "not permissible" that they be demonstrated to be in the wrong.

In any kind of serious debate setting, you cannot simply claim position X if you are not able to engage and refute arguments that challenge position X.

Here, that seems to be a national pastime....