Jesus is Presently King of the World

[Drew]

but He allows the rule of Satan over the earth...for now! The devil is being used as an adversary. It is up to disciples to shine for Christ and be a light in the present darkness.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If this text really means what you think it says then we have contradiction in the scriptures since so many texts, as I have already shown you in other threads, clearly place Jesus in the position of King of the world.

Fortunately, there is no contradiction in the scriptures on this matter. A "god" need not be a king. Your argument leverage the assumption that if Satan is described as a "god of this world", he must be a King of this world. That is not the Biblical model. As is often the case with these soft arguments, they gain their appeal, frankly, because so many people do not know their Bibles well enough.

Clearly we all believe that God is always God – He never “stops†being God. But the scripture show that there are times during which He is not enthroned as King. One example of this comes from Daniel 7:

I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;

Clearly, the Ancient of Days is a reference to God the Father. The fact that He takes His seat shows an enthronement is taking place – God is becoming King. This means that before the enthronement, He was not King. And for reasons I will not get into in this post, the enthronement of God as King takes place at the Cross.

So please be careful not to tangle of the concept of kingship with "god-hood". As this text (and I could give others as well) shows, a “god†can be a “god†without being a King.

And so it is with Satan in the 2 Cor 4 text – he is a “god†– a power in the world – but He is certainly not King in this world. Jesus is the King in this world:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

 

[Drew]

Another argument for Jesus' present kingship appeals to the connection between Jesus and Adam. There should no disagreement that Adam was made "king" or "ruler" over creation. And many of us would agree that Jesus is the "new Adam" - He has come to "fix" the Adamic nature of humanity and begin the project of restoration of creation. This is why Paul's writing are full of "new creation" ideas.

Remember what Jesus was mistaken for by the women at the tomb - the gardener. I doubt this is a co-incidence and is a reference to Eden. The resurrected Jesus is the new Adam - the prototype of humanity as it should have been and will be. It would be very odd indeed if the new Adam - Jesus - did not inherit the kingship role of the first Adam.

 

[shad]

Your position has been clearly refuted in this very thread.

I make an assertion and defend it with an argument.

You make an assertion and do not defend it.

You belive you did but you just use the Scriptures conveniently to suit yourself.
:naughty
.

 

[shad]

There's peace in our heart. But we are not of this world. Jesus said, 'now shall the ruler of this world be cast out'. John 12:31 Was he saying Christ will be cast out? Was he saying the truth will be cast out? No. The liar will be cast out. Jesus was not refering to himself when he said 'the ruler of this world' shall be cast out. The ruler of this world is the liar Satan. Christ is the truth; the one who casts out Satan. He is the way, and the truth, and the life. John 14:6 The truth in Christ reigns in our heart and soul and mind.

Yes, We will have perfect peace when Jesus starts reigning this world instead of satan. Jesus is perfect King, He will not do such lousy, hate filled world like satan.

.

 

[Drew]

Please note: A number of posters are on my "ignore" list - I have come to the conclusion that interaction with them is not fruitful for anyone. But, in the interests of fairness, if other posters (not on ignore) notice that what they think is a good point is being ignored by me, please bring it to my attention and I will address it.

Obviously, you are not on my "ignore" list if I engage your comments.

 

[Adullam]

but He allows the rule of Satan over the earth...for now! The devil is being used as an adversary. It is up to disciples to shine for Christ and be a light in the present darkness.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If this text really means what you think it says then we have contradiction in the scriptures since so many texts, as I have already shown you in other threads, clearly place Jesus in the position of King of the world.

Fortunately, there is no contradiction in the scriptures on this matter. A "god" need not be a king. Your argument leverage the assumption that if Satan is described as a "god of this world", he must be a King of this world. That is not the Biblical model. As is often the case with these soft arguments, they gain their appeal, frankly, because so many people do not know their Bibles well enough.

Clearly we all believe that God is always God – He never “stops†being God. But the scripture show that there are times during which He is not enthroned as King. One example of this comes from Daniel 7:

I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;

Clearly, the Ancient of Days is a reference to God the Father. The fact that He takes His seat shows an enthronement is taking place – God is becoming King. This means that before the enthronement, He was not King. And for reasons I will not get into in this post, the enthronement of God as King takes place at the Cross.

So please be careful not to tangle of the concept of kingship with "god-hood". As this text (and I could give others as well) shows, a “god†can be a “god†without being a King.

And so it is with Satan in the 2 Cor 4 text – he is a “god†– a power in the world – but He is certainly not King in this world. Jesus is the King in this world:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

When was God not king of the universe? You omitted my first statement. God has always been supreme ruler of the universe and that includes the earth. He is the Master. He is the Creator.

1 The heavens are Yours, the earth also is Yours; The world and all its fullness, You have founded them.

Yet God permits Satan to rule temporarily. This is still in effect until all things are accomplished. Only a fool cannot see the present state of the world.

 

[Adullam]

Do you believe the kingdom of God is this present world?

 

[toddm]

Just one more reason why dispensational eschatology is unbiblical, because it has so many people believing the lie that Jesus is not King over all right now.

Question for all you denying Jesus' present rule - if Satan truly is ruling this world, then how is it that the Gospel keeps spreading to every nation? How is it that the Bible is more available today than any other period in time? I see the rule of Christ more now than ever before, despite the evil & suffering in the world.

 

[Drew]

When was God not king of the universe? You omitted my first statement. God has always been supreme ruler of the universe and that includes the earth. He is the Master. He is the Creator.

You are free to believe what you like. The text from Daniel, as well as other texts I can provide if you like, show that God, for reasons best known to Him, does not always assume the specific role of King.

You may not like it, but it is right there in the Daniel text - YHWH is enthroned at a specific point in time.

Yet God permits Satan to rule temporarily. This is still in effect until all things are accomplished. Only a fool cannot see the present state of the world.

You have provided no evidence that Satan is the king of the present world. By contrast, in the other thread, plently of evidence has been provided showing that Jesus presently rules over the earth.

 

[Drew]

Do you believe the kingdom of God is this present world?

Absolutely. Jesus say so quite clearly right here:

But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you

 

[cyberjosh]

As part of an end times class/bible study that I have been attending we have discussed different escatalogical views and amillenialism was one of them. Our teacher said he once strongly leaned toward amillenialism because he liked the ideas and the points about Christ being throned now in heaven and the kingdom spreading presently, but now has personally been convinced that Christ will indeed also reign physically on earth in the end (as a culmination and manifestation of the kingdom), and I too believe this to be Scripturally sound. Especially in light of the Scripture, "For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him" (2 Timothy 2:11-12). There is a yet future reign in view, which is not to say that Christ is not sovereign now however.

Is this topic coming from the perspective of an amillenialist viewpoint? Have I correctly discerned from what perspective your point is coming from?

 

[Drew]

... but now has personally been convinced that Christ will indeed also reign physically on earth in the end (as a culmination and manifestation of the kingdom), and I too believe this to be Scripturally sound. Especially in light of the Scripture, "For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him" (2 Timothy 2:11-12). There is a yet future reign in view, which is not to say that Christ is not sovereign now however.

I am very happy to embrace this model. I think one point that you have made well is this: To assert that Christ will be king in the future does not mean that He is not king now.

 

[Vic C.]

Drew can attest that he and I would argue much over this. But... there is a duality here that should be explored. There are verses, like some that Drew and a few others posted that can't be ignored, but we can't just gloss over verses like this either:

1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


I believe the key to this duality is found in both the physical and spiritual. Satan indeed has limited powers as we speak but is powerless when it comes to hindering the spreading of the Gospel. Looking at the seals of Revelation from a historicist's viewpoint reveals it is the ekklesia and Gospel here:

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


We should also take into consideration how Jesus replied to Satan in Mat 4:8.

 

[cyberjosh]

... but now has personally been convinced that Christ will indeed also reign physically on earth in the end (as a culmination and manifestation of the kingdom), and I too believe this to be Scripturally sound. Especially in light of the Scripture, "For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him" (2 Timothy 2:11-12). There is a yet future reign in view, which is not to say that Christ is not sovereign now however.

I am very happy to embrace this model. I think one point that you have made well is this: To assert that Christ will be king in the future does not mean that He is not king now.

Well great then. We are in agreement. I suppose then the real question is the extent/ramifications of Christ's reign now as compared to Christ's future reign. I think the physical reign will definitely provide a much needed concrete presence as witness to the nations of Christ's supremacy. Isaiah gives glimpses of Gentiles coming from all around the world to go up to Jerusalem to see the Messiah, although there will still be enemies of Christ even then (perhaps as part of Satan's last rebellion of being loosed for season). As Paul gave us a glimpse of during & after Christ's earthly reign, "Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet" (1 Corinthians 15:24-25).

But Christ still has very real enemies that have yet to be fully placed under his feet. Currently I suppose our role is in spiritual warfare to fight against the contending evil ruler of earth, Satan, being after all the prince of the power of the air and who has kept the understanding of the gentiles darkened and who has certain strongholds on earth and in the heavenly places, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12).

I'm not sure how nuanced or encompassing a view you were trying to bring into perspective but we must also acknowledge that not everything has been placed at Christ's feet yet. There still are battles to he fought, and Christ will have the last victory, and I believe it will finally accomplished (in culmination) during Christ's earthly reign. Is there anything you would add to this or differ on?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Drew]

1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

I agree of course. Satan is not entirely vanquished and is still a force in the world. But that does not make him King and it certainly does not mean that Jesus is not King.

also take into consideration how Jesus replied to Satan in Mat 4:8.

Here is the text:

Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory

I would be the first to agree that before the cross, Satan was indeed "king" of this world.

 

[cyberjosh]

Vic.,

It looks like you and I made a similar point at the same time. As I said there are still enemies to be put under Christ's feet, so I do see the inherent duality for the present time. In light of Christ's future reign however we can see a progression I believe toward that future point of reign on earth, and all our present battles against the powers of this dark world are part of that progression. And Christ wanted his power and wisdom to be known through the Church unto the spiritual powers that be, "His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 3:10).

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

... but now has personally been convinced that Christ will indeed also reign physically on earth in the end (as a culmination and manifestation of the kingdom), and I too believe this to be Scripturally sound. Especially in light of the Scripture, "For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him" (2 Timothy 2:11-12). There is a yet future reign in view, which is not to say that Christ is not sovereign now however.

I am very happy to embrace this model. I think one point that you have made well is this: To assert that Christ will be king in the future does not mean that He is not king now.

I too, like this concept. :yes

 

[Drew]

But Christ still has very real enemies that have yet to be fully placed under his feet. Currently I suppose our role is in spiritual warfare to fight against the contending evil ruler of earth, Satan, being after all the prince of the power of the air and who has kept the understanding of the gentiles darkened and who has certain strongholds on earth and in the heavenly places, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12).

I'm not sure how nuanced or encompassing a view you were trying to bring into perspective but we must also acknowledge that not everything has been placed at Christ's feet yet. There still are battles to he fought, and Christ will have the last victory, and I believe it will finally accomplished (in culmination) during Christ's earthly reign. Is there anything you would add to this or differ on?

I think we are in violent agreement on pretty much everything.

I would like to comment on the "spiritual warfare" statement: I believe, following Paul and Jesus' statements, that Jesus is lord of the world right now. To me, this means that the church has the responsibilty to advocate for the adoption of kingdom of God values in all the institutions of this world. In saying this, I am saying that Jesus is not just King over the "spiritual" domain to the exclusion of the temporal - I think the "spirit vs temporal" is a false distinction anyway.

As for the evolutionary character of the kingdom that you assert, I made exactly the same point earlier on in this thread.

 

[Joe67]

Jesus Christ was truly reigning during the 40 days after his resurrection. The return of our Lord Jesus will be of the same quality as the mount of transfiguration.

We will reign with him a servants in his spiritual kingdom. We will reign on the earth.

We cannot serve Jesus Christ and mammon in this "reigning."

The kingdom of God in Jesus Christ does not come with outward qualities. The kingdom of God as given to Jesus Christ is made manifest in the flesh.

God forbid that we should glory in the human attributes and qualities, the good of life. Let us glory only in the "better" of grace.


Joe

 

[Drew]

In light of Christ's future reign however we can see a progression I believe toward that future point of reign on earth, and all our present battles against the powers of this dark world are part of that progression.

Since some of us are in a (rare) love-fest of agreement, I wish to vigorously endorse how important a point you raise here. The Biblical model is indeed one of an "advancing kingdom". It is not a stark choice between "Jesus is not King" and "Jesus is King and all problems instantly disappear".

As always, good theology - in this case recognizing this progression - makes for wise living. We can embrace Jesus' present authority and rightly feel justified in advocating for the adoption Kingdom principles in the wider world and we can also understand that suffering and death are not signs that our God is "absent" or perhaps, worse, non-existent.