Jesus is Presently King of the World

[Free]

Be careful brethren, for some claiming to be Christian today are actually wolves in sheep's clothing, and are behind today's movement to setup a fake kingdom over all the earth, in order to enthrone 'their' king of the world. Their king is NOT our Lord Jesus Christ. That's why they want you to accept this world of flesh as evidence of Christ's Kingdom having come literally already. It has not. No yet, but it is very near based on the signs our Lord gave in His Word.

Still taking the low road, I see.

This matter should be decided on the merits of the relevant scriptural arguments, not on smear and innuendo.

I agree. That really was uncalled for. There seems to be a habit going around that those who disagree with one's position are said to not be in the truth.

 

[Drew]

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
(KJV)

When our Lord Jesus prayed the following about His elect, He was showing His Kingdom is not OF this world age, which is the meaning of the John 18:36 verse also...

Then I guess we need to dig up the author of this gospel and tell him he made a mistake.

The fact is that the word translated as "of" is the greek word "ek". And what is the definition of "ek"? It is this, at least according to the NET Bible:

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause literal or figurative

Now, veteran, do you have a different source that provides a different definition for the word "ek"? And the reader should know that at least two translations render the relevant word as "from".

 

[Drew]

The problem some are having though, is just WHERE that Kingdom to come under Christ is going to be manifested de facto. It will be on this earth, but not of THIS present world we're still in today. Peter clearly showed that...

2 Pet 3:7-10
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

So how could this world we are in today, on this earth, be Christ's Kingdom having already come? It's not yet come in the physical, but only in the spiritual "new creature" sense. And it's manifested only through The Holy Spirit Comforter dwelling within those in Christ Jesus. In Romans 8 Apostle Paul said we still wait for the adoption, the redemption of our body, just as the whole... creation itself also waits in hope for deliverance from the bondage of vanity it has been in.

It is interesting that, on the one hand, you seem the world will be done away with (from the 2 Peter text, and then on the hand you refer to a text from Romans 8 which suggests that the world will not, in fact, be burned away to nothing, but will rather be redeemed, liberated from its subjection to bondage.

How do you liberate creation by burning it away to nothing? That is destroying creation, not liberating it. For reasons I have addressed in many other posts, I suggest that the 2 Peter text is drawing on a substantial Biblical tradition of using “end of the world†language in a specifically metaphorical sense. In other words, I suggest the 2 Peter text is not to be taken literally. This is not an “arbitrary†decision on my part. I can provide lots of Old Testament evidence of such end of the world language being used in a non-literal sense.

So there really is no problem here in relation to those of us who believe that Jesus is already a king. If it were true that the present world was actually going to be done away, then you would have a point. But I suggest that the weight of the Biblical evidence supports the assertion that creation will be transformed and redeemed, not burned away and replaced.

 

[glorydaz]

Now..... you say there will be a new heavens and new earth...which I'm not disputing.
You also say there will be nations left, after our Lord's coming, who we're to rule over.
How do these "nations" pass over into a new heaven and earth?

Jesus and His elect will govern new earth. BTW, Satan and this world(satan's world) will be destroyed by Jesus and His elect and the new earth is in complete peace, without wars, diseases, hatred, poverty and so on...

Oh yes, Halellujah :yes

Ah, so who will the elect govern on this new earth?
The unrighteous nations left after the harvest?

The problem with an in-between kingdom is that things just don't fit in with the rest of scripture.
Who will be left to rule over after this?

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

When will Jesus and His elect destroy satan and this world?
Before the 1000 yr. kingdom or after?

 

[shad]

When will Jesus and His elect destroy satan and this world?

When the time is right and no one knows, except God.

Before the 1000 yr. kingdom or after?

As soon as Jesus judge all of us and throw Satan out, Jesus will start 1000 year reign with His elect.

We have been through this before. This is darn lengthy thread. Everyone seem to be repeating the same thing over and over. It has run its course long time ago.

We should agree to disagree.

 

[glorydaz]

When will Jesus and His elect destroy satan and this world?

When the time is right and no one knows, except God.

Before the 1000 yr. kingdom or after?

As soon as Jesus judge all of us and throw Satan out, Jesus will start 1000 year reign with His elect.

We have been through this before. This is darn lengthy thread. Everyone seem to be repeating the same thing over and over. It has run its course long time ago.

We should agree to disagree.

I've heard some say that satan isn't thrown out until after the 1000 yrs. are done.
So, if you believe satan is gone, and we're judged already, who will we be ruling over?

You see, if you don't have answers for your belief, there are holes that need to be filled.
The "thousand" years stretch from the cross to our Lord's second coming.
We are ruling now with Christ in the heavenlies.
When He returns to harvest, judge, and gather His bride, we enter into eternity...not a thousand years.

 

[shad]

I've heard some say that satan isn't thrown out until after the 1000 yrs. are done.
So, if you believe satan is gone, and we're judged already, who will we be ruling over?

I never said satan is gone. I say satan is prince of this world. He cannot be prince of the world if he is not here. Are you really reading the posts? Satan will be thrown out during 1000 year of Jesus' reign but he will be released for a little while after that.

.

 

[Drew]

Here is a text from Hebrews 1:

And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?

I would think that the reference to Jesus having “sat down†(past tense) at the right hand of God would be enough to show that Jesus is already King over all the earth (as many other texts we have seen already clearly show). However, I suspect that my worthy opponents will try to argue that this text leaves open the possibility that Jesus is really only king over a “heavenly†realm, or the realm of personal, interior spirituality, and only becomes a king over the earth in the future.

Well, verse 5 quotes Psalm 2:7. Here is the relevant portion of Psalm 2:

Why are the nations in an uproar
And the peoples (B)devising a vain thing?
2The (C) kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
(D)Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3"Let us (F)tear their fetters apart
And cast away their cords from us!"
4He who sits in the heavens (G)laughs,
The Lord (H)scoffs at them.
5Then He will speak to them in His (I)anger
And (J)terrify them in His fury, saying,
6"But as for Me, I have installed (K)My King
Upon Zion, (L)My holy mountain."
7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'You are (M)My Son,
Today I have begotten You.

This should settle the matter. When the author of Hebrews quotes from Psalm 2, he is not merely “quoting a line or twoâ€, he is invoking the context in which the quoted text is situated. And the context is one of a sitting king over earthly nations and peoples. Now, if you want to argue that when verse 7 of Psalm 2 is quoted in Hebrews 1, there is no intent to invoke the whole context of the Psalm, then please challenge me on this. It is relatively easy to make the case that when an author of one book of scripture quotes from another, they are indeed invoking the broader context surrounding the material that they have quoted.

The author of Hebrews knows what he is doing. When he quotes from Psalm 2 in relation to the status of Jesus, he knows full well that Psalm 2 is all about a sitting king over an earthly domain. In fact, to quote from Psalm 2, without intending an allusion to a sitting King, would constitute incompetent writing, since a sitting king over all the earth is precisely what Psalm 2 is all about.

 

[glorydaz]

I've heard some say that satan isn't thrown out until after the 1000 yrs. are done.
So, if you believe satan is gone, and we're judged already, who will we be ruling over?

I never said satan is gone. I say satan is prince of this world. He cannot be prince of the world if he is not here. Are you really reading the posts? Satan will be thrown out during 1000 year of Jesus' reign but he will be released for a little while after that.

.

You see...this is why I'm confused about what you believe. You said satan would be thrown out when Jesus judges, and then the 1000 yrs. would begin. Now you say he's thrown out during the 1000 yrs.

As soon as Jesus judge all of us and throw Satan out, Jesus will start 1000 year reign with His elect.

So, who will we rule over during the 1000 yr. reign.
I'm only asking because there are quite a few things that don't make sense under your scenario.
I used to believe it, myself, until I found too many contadictions with the rest of the Word.

 

[shad]

You see...this is why I'm confused about what you believe. You said satan would be thrown out when Jesus judges, and then the 1000 yrs. would begin. Now you say he's thrown out during the 1000 yrs.

I misused the word, I meant Satan will be bound during 1000 years of Jesus and His elect reigning. Are you still confused?

So, who will we rule over during the 1000 yr. reign.

What did I just say? Jesus and His elect.

I'm only asking because there are quite a few things that don't make sense under your scenario.
I used to believe it, myself, until I found too many contadictions with the rest of the Word.

You don't seem to be reading my posts and I dont see why you dont understand. :crazy :crazy :crazy

 

[glorydaz]

This should settle the matter. When the author of Hebrews quotes from Psalm 2, he is not merely “quoting a line or twoâ€, he is invoking the context in which the quoted text is situated. And the context is one of a sitting king over earthly nations and peoples. Now, if you want to argue that when verse 7 of Psalm 2 is quoted in Hebrews 1, there is no intent to invoke the whole context of the Psalm, then please challenge me on this. It is relatively easy to make the case that when an author of one book of scripture quotes from another, they are indeed invoking the broader context surrounding the material that they have quoted.

The author of Hebrews knows what he is doing. When he quotes from Psalm 2 in relation to the status of Jesus, he knows full well that Psalm 2 is all about a sitting king over an earthly domain. In fact, to quote from Psalm 2, without intending an allusion to a sitting King, would constitute incompetent writing, since a sitting king over all the earth is precisely what Psalm 2 is all about.

I love this Psalm. Those who hold to the premillennial position also take the words that He will rule with a rod of iron to speak of how Jesus will rule during the future kingdom to enforce righteousness. Our Lord uses a shepherd's rod on His sheep, and reserves His rod of iron for the unrighteous. After He comes again, He will harvest the earth and judge, so there will be no unrighteousness in the future kingdom. So who will satan lead astray when he's released, and how do those left-over unrighteous people of the nations dwell there being ruled over by the saints?

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[glorydaz]

You see...this is why I'm confused about what you believe. You said satan would be thrown out when Jesus judges, and then the 1000 yrs. would begin. Now you say he's thrown out during the 1000 yrs.

I misused the word, I meant Satan will be bound during 1000 years of Jesus and His elect reigning. Are you still confused?

So, who will we rule over during the 1000 yr. reign.

What did I just say? Jesus and His elect.

[quote:28xpsvhq]I'm only asking because there are quite a few things that don't make sense under your scenario.
I used to believe it, myself, until I found too many contadictions with the rest of the Word.

You don't seem to be reading my posts and I dont see why you dont understand. :crazy :crazy :crazy[/quote:28xpsvhq]

I'm sorry, but if we're ruling, don't we need someone to rule over?
If there are none but the elect, then that would negate the reason for a 1000 yr. kingdom before eternity begins. If the elect have glorified bodies, we're already in eternity, right?

 

[shad]

I'm sorry, but if we're ruling, don't we need someone to rule over?

this is my understanding the Bible. I wont debate. take it or leave it.

Yes, Jesus and His elect will govern God's people. His elect are elected by Jesus and they are a little flock. The rest are the big crowd and most of His followers will be part of the big crowd.

If there are none but the elect, then that would negate the reason for a 1000 yr. kingdom before eternity begins. If the elect have glorified bodies, we're already in eternity, right?

The people in the big crowd will have perfect bodies just like Adam and Eve had before they sinned, but they are not immortal like the elect. If we sin we still can die. I believe 1000 year is our chance to prove we are truly holy and righteous.

The elect are especially selected by Jesus.
.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm sorry, but if we're ruling, don't we need someone to rule over?

this is my understanding the Bible. I wont debate. take it or leave it.

Yes, Jesus and His elect will govern God's people. His elect are elected by Jesus and they are a little flock. The rest are the big crowd and most of His followers will be part of the big crowd.

If there are none but the elect, then that would negate the reason for a 1000 yr. kingdom before eternity begins. If the elect have glorified bodies, we're already in eternity, right?

The people in the big crowd will have perfect bodies just like Adam and Eve had before they sinned, but they are not immortal like the elect. If we sin we still can die. I believe 1000 year is our chance to prove we are truly holy and righteous.

The elect are especially selected by Jesus.
.

I think I'll leave it. No offence, but we have bodies like Adam and Eve now. They had the same bodies after they sinned. Except they wore clothes. So this big crowd of people get a special chance...different than everyone else down through time? I don't get it. Why tack on time after the Lord comes and harvests the earth? Sounds to me, from reading Rev., the tares will be stacked and burned and the grapes will be in the barn. Who's the big crowd, and why do they get another chance?

If you want my opinion...that big crowd is all around us right now. And we're doing the will of God by ruling over them now. We're spreading the gospel and convicting them of their sin, exercising our judgment by discerning right from wrong, calling on people to repent before the harvest and they have to meet their maker. The word of God is our sword as we reign with Christ in his kingdom on earth. He gives the orders, we execute them.

 

[shad]

Who's the big crowd, and why do they get another chance?

Because God is merciful and just. There are many, many did not get chance to hear the whole truth. There are false messages spread around. God will make sure that everyone gets equal chance.

Big crowd are those truthful servants but do not make to be the elect.

And we're doing the will of God by ruling over them now.

You think you are good enough to rule over anyone?

We're spreading the gospel and convicting them of their sin, exercising our judgment by discerning right from wrong, calling on people to repent before the harvest and they have to meet their maker. The word of God is our sword as we reign with Christ in his kingdom on earth. He gives the orders, we execute them.

Oh my, what will Jesus think of your confidence of yourself of being so holy and righteous. Only perfect ones have the right to rule over anyone, friend.

BTW, what kind of power do you have right now? How are you executing anyone? I dont see any power in the churches. If you are ruling right now why evil and wicked ones are increasing more and more?

Jesus is the only one who can rule over anyone. And He will appoint little flock to govern the new earth for 1000 years.

I dont know how you get this kind of ridiculous ideas but I hope you read the Bible yourself over and over instead of relying on others' ideas.

 

[glorydaz]

Who's the big crowd, and why do they get another chance?

Because God is merciful and just. There are many, many did not get chance to hear the whole truth. There are false messages spread around. God will make sure that everyone gets equal chance.

Big crowd are those truthful servants but do not make to be the elect.

And we're doing the will of God by ruling over them now.

You think you are good enough to rule over anyone?

[quote:1pr0frbn]We're spreading the gospel and convicting them of their sin, exercising our judgment by discerning right from wrong, calling on people to repent before the harvest and they have to meet their maker. The word of God is our sword as we reign with Christ in his kingdom on earth. He gives the orders, we execute them.

Oh my, what will Jesus think of your confidence of yourself of being so holy and righteous. Only perfect ones have the right to rule over anyone, friend.

BTW, what kind of power do you have right now? How are you executing anyone? I dont see any power in the churches. If you are ruling right now why evil and wicked ones are increasing more and more?

Jesus is the only one who can rule over anyone. And He will appoint little flock to govern the new earth for 1000 years.

I dont know how you get this kind of ridiculous ideas but I hope you read the Bible yourself over and over instead of relying on others' ideas.[/quote:1pr0frbn]
Oh, yes, I do read the Bible...if some in the church are powerless, it's because they refuse to believe the Lord has given us power. I call that a lack of faith. We still have evil in this world because the tares are growing along side the wheat until the harvest.

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

My confidence isn't in myself, it's in the Lord Jesus Christ.
His righteousness has been imputed unto me.

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

BTW...there is no scriptural support for a big crowd of people being given another chance after the Lord returns, so I wouldn't count on that if I were you.

 

[shad]

Oh, yes, I do read the Bible...if some in the church are powerless, it's because they refuse to believe the Lord has given us power. I call that a lack of faith. We still have evil in this world because the tares are growing along side the wheat until the harvest.

You still did not answer my questions. How are you ruling? How are you executing evil and wicked ones ? Do you have perfect body? You dont die? How many Christians live longer than 150 years old?

It seems to be in your imagination you are ruling the earth. :crazy

.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh, yes, I do read the Bible...if some in the church are powerless, it's because they refuse to believe the Lord has given us power. I call that a lack of faith. We still have evil in this world because the tares are growing along side the wheat until the harvest.

You still did not answer my questions. How are you ruling? How are you executing evil and wicked ones ? Do you have perfect body? You dont die? How many Christians live longer than 150 years old?

It seems to be in your imagination you are ruling the earth. :crazy

.

So you think ruling means executing the wicked?

Do I have a glorified body...no, I'll get that when the Lord returns.
My body will die, but I was born of the spirit, so I have already entered into eternal life.
People of the flesh don't live that long anymore, and they won't in any future kingdom, either.
You're misinterpreting the poetic language used by many of the old prophets.
It was a common practice that you'd notice if you weren't focusing on select scripture to support your future kingdom theory.

The body of Christ is ruling in exactly the way the Lord wants us to rule.
"My house shall be a house of prayer." We are to pray for our enemies, not execute them.
The effectual fervent pray of a righteous man availeth much.
There is great power there if man will only exercise it.
We're to lead people to the Lord...not beat them over the head with a rod of iron.
The Jews reject their Messiah because they expected him to come as a conquering King, they made the same mistake you are.

We're to be servants to one another as Christ taught us.
Submitting ourselves one to another in love.
We're not to condone sin, but rebuke it.
We're to expel those brothers living in open sin, so they will repent and return to the fold.

We're to rule ourselves so we needn't be chastened of the Lord.
We're to show forth the mercy and love of God so men will desire Him.

Man's idea of ruling is not God's.
You need only look at Jesus' life to know how He wants us to rule.
Jesus Christ...the same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[shad]

Oh, yes, I do read the Bible...if some in the church are powerless, it's because they refuse to believe the Lord has given us power. I call that a lack of faith. We still have evil in this world because the tares are growing along side the wheat until the harvest.

You still did not answer my questions. How are you ruling? How are you executing evil and wicked ones ? Do you have perfect body? You dont die? How many Christians live longer than 150 years old?

It seems to be in your imagination you are ruling the earth. :crazy

.

So you think ruling means executing the wicked?

What do you mean by ruling over? Who are you ruling over and what are you doing to them?

 

[glorydaz]

You still did not answer my questions. How are you ruling? How are you executing evil and wicked ones ? Do you have perfect body? You dont die? How many Christians live longer than 150 years old?

It seems to be in your imagination you are ruling the earth. :crazy

.

So you think ruling means executing the wicked?

What do you mean by ruling over? Who are you ruling over and what are you doing to them?

Let's just pretend there was a really good King.
How would He rule?
Would he set a good example and obey all the laws?
Would he encourage people to love their neighbors and take care of the widows and orphans.
Would he justly decide disputes among his subjects?
Would he call on people to repent of their evil deeds and encourage them to reach toward their highest potential?
Would he serve the people instead of rob them?

The Lord has given the church power over the powers and principalities.
We need only rebuke satan and he will flee from us.
We can heal the sick, cast out demons, spread the Gospel so men will turn from their wicked ways and become lovers of God rather than lovers of themselves.

Physical power corrupts...spiritual power doesn't.

We rule the same way Jesus does.
With love and righteousness.

If the church wasn't sitting around waiting for Jesus to come bail us out, we'd be seeing better results. As it is, every time someone gets saved, there's one less killer, thief, abuser, liar...