Jesus is Presently King of the World

[Drew]

And what does this have to do with what we are talking about? Jesus cast out Satan on several occasions. It's not a question of whether Jesus has the authority to cast out Satan. Of course he does. And he gave us his Spirit so that we can cast out Satan in his name. So what? Does that imply Satan isn't the ruler of this world? Of course not. Just the opposite.Why did he give us the authority to cast out Satan if Satan isn't in the world? And what makes you think Satan can't enter people. Basically, you're denying every teaching Jesus gave us; even the promise of the Spirit - 'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you to all truth'.

No - the Scriptures are quite clear: Jesus has assumed the role of ruler of this world, not Satan.

It is true that there are several events in the ministry of Jesus where Satan is "defeated". Reflecting on His temptation in the wilderness, Jesus says this:

18And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

And, of course, I and others have pointed out that Satan was dethroned at the cross. You seem to be arguing that since there are multiple instances of Jesus "defeating" Satan, this establishes a template that continues forever, with Satan always on the throne and yet being periodically dealt miscellaneous defeats.

This is not correct logic. I will show this by analogy. Suppose Fred is the reigning boxing champion. Suppose he then takes on a contender Joe. After Joe lands lots of punches, Fred is eventually knocked out. Joe is now the new champion. The fact that Fred is the reigning champ while he receives all the punches leading up his being knocked out does not mean that He is not then knocked out and dethroned.

You seem to be making this kind of argument. Yes, Jesus “defeats†Satan at several points before Satan is ultimately dethroned. But ultimately dethroned he is, and you should not deny clear Biblical teaching to this effect:

Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

Now although Satan is dethroned (as this text shows), he remains a power in the world.

In summary then: The fact that Jesus cast out Satan several times before the cross does not mean that Jesus did not remover Satan from rulership of this world at the cross (as per the boxing analogy). And the fact that Satan was dethroned at the cross does not mean that he is entirely gone and does not still need to be battled.

 

[Drew]

Of course he is saying the kingdom is not of this world. The kingdom of heaven isn't something you can see. In your imagining you think you've countered something but you haven't. Changing words will not help you. It's the oldest trick in the book. Is not 'of' can be read is not 'taken from' or is not 'a part of', so even replacing 'of' with 'from' doesn't change the meaning of his words.

No Mark. I have made a very specific argument as to why you are misreading this text. And the fact that you have remained entirely silent in respect to that argument shows that you have no counterargument to make to it. Because if you could mount a counterargument, you surely would have, given your commitment to the position you hold. Here is the argument again. You cannot simply ignore it and hope it goes away. I am not "changing words" - I am arguing from the original Greek.

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were fromthis world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.

 

[Drew]

Ephesians 1:21: Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

'when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places. Eph. 1:20 So now he sits at the right hand of the Father.

When Jesus returns he will rule from Zion.

You are not addressing the clear implication of the Ephesians 1 text - Jesus already reigns. This is not to deny that when Jesus returns in person, His reign will be consummated - brought to fulfillment. The issue here, quite frankly, is your refusal to believe the scriptures. This text from Ephesians 1 is one of many that clearly place Jesus on the throne of earthly kingship as of the cross:

which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

To read this text and deny that Jesus is King is a textbook example of blanket rejection of the clear teaching of scripture. Jesus is clearty represented as being the overarching authority over all things, including, of course, all earthly institutions. And we are told that He presently has that authority - we do not need to wait for the "next age" for Him to get it.

Why do you not believe this, Markt?

 

[glorydaz]

If the work of the cross was better understood, many of these arguments would go away.

What did Jesus accomplish on the cross?
Was it just our salvation?

On the cross, Jesus said, "It is finished".

The same Greek word "finished" is used here .... meaning "accomplished".

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Was He referring to just our salvation?

No, He accomplished our redemption, justification, sanctification, reconciliation and he defeated satan, sin, and death through His resurrection. Jesus is the first-fruits and when He comes again, we'll be given our resurrected bodies...thereby defeating the last enemy death in it's entirety.

Satan was rendered effectively powerless by the cross, because Christ, at the cross, delivered us from satan's power. He was judged, and only waits the for the execution of his sentence.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Jesus spoke of binding the strong man.

28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

 

[Drew]

If the work of the cross was better understood, many of these arguments would go away.

What did Jesus accomplish on the cross?
Was it just our salvation?

You raise a great point. Jesus came to do much more than give us a way to "go to Heaven when we die".

One of the things He came to do was - you can hear it coming can't you, MarkT and others - initiate the kingdom of God. And that is about God becoming of this world, just as He is in Heaven.

 

[researcher]

Of course he is saying the kingdom is not of this world. The kingdom of heaven isn't something you can see. In your imagining you think you've countered something but you haven't. Changing words will not help you. It's the oldest trick in the book. Is not 'of' can be read is not 'taken from' or is not 'a part of', so even replacing 'of' with 'from' doesn't change the meaning of his words.

No Mark. I have made a very specific argument as to why you are misreading this text. And the fact that you have remained entirely silent in respect to that argument shows that you have no counterargument to make to it. Because if you could mount a counterargument, you surely would have, given your commitment to the position you hold. Here is the argument again. You cannot simply ignore it and hope it goes away. I am not "changing words" - I am arguing from the original Greek.

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were fromthis world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.

Good point

Same goes for the verses here:

Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hated them,
because they are not of (from) the world, even as I am not of (from) the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.
Joh 17:16 They are not of (from) the world even as I am not of (from) the world.

Of
G1537
??, ??
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from

 

[toddm]

Some are saying Jesus already returned. Which means what? Did the resurrection already happen?

No. What people, like myself, are saying is that 70 AD was A coming, but not THE coming. How do we know that it was not THE Second Coming? Well, because we're all here and the Resurrection/Final Judgment hasn't happened yet.

Did the 1000 year reign end in 1070? Has the devil been destroyed?

You're assuming that the 1000 yr reign is a literal 1000 yrs. The number 1000 is used symbolically many times throughout Scripture; for example Psalm 50:10 says "the cattle on a thousand hills" belong to the Lord...so does that mean the cattle on hill #1,001 belongs to someone else? Of course not. We see another example in Deuteronomy where God's blessing extends to a thousand generations (man, that would suck to be generation #1001!!) I believe that we are in the millennium right now and it is not a literal 1000 yrs, but a long period of time. When Jesus returns (THE return), then he will destroy Satan.

 

[glorydaz]

If the work of the cross was better understood, many of these arguments would go away.

What did Jesus accomplish on the cross?
Was it just our salvation?

You raise a great point. Jesus came to do much more than give us a way to "go to Heaven when we die".

One of the things He came to do was - you can hear it coming can't you, MarkT and others - initiate the kingdom of God. And that is about God becoming of this world, just as He is in Heaven.

Yes, and His realm is wherever the King rules. We're the temple built without hands.
We physically live on this earth, but we've been chosen out of the world....

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

This is why when we look at the world around us, and we see the tares growing beside us committing all manner of evil, we needn't think satan is in control. Our King rules, not as men rule, but far better.
It is the Father's good pleasure to give us the kingdom...we enter into that kingdom when we are born again. So it shall be until the harvest, when we'll be gathered into the "barn."

22And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. 23The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. 24Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? 25And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? 26If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? 27Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? 29And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 32Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

 

[Joe67]

Two scriptures: the first concerning serving on the earth. the second concerning serving during the "1000" years.

Rev 5:10
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. KJV

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. KJV

These two testimonies are concerning the same work of God in Jesus Christ and his Body.

And also this qualifying testimony.
2 Tim 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. KJV

Joe

 

[Adullam]

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev. 12:12

This verse was written many years after the sacrifice of Jesus and is prophetic....which is forward looking not backward.

This speaks of the time of great tribulation which is shortly to come upon the earth. Jesus prophesied of this time. A period of peace will follow during the millenial rule of Christ with His saints.

 

[shad]

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev. 12:12

This verse was written many years after the sacrifice of Jesus and is prophetic....which is forward looking not backward.

This speaks of the time of great tribulation which is shortly to come upon the earth. Jesus prophesied of this time. A period of peace will follow during the millenial rule of Christ with His saints.

What is your point Adullam?

Do you believe that Jesus is presently king of this world too?

thanks.

 

[glorydaz]

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev. 12:12

This verse was written many years after the sacrifice of Jesus and is prophetic....which is forward looking not backward.

This speaks of the time of great tribulation which is shortly to come upon the earth. Jesus prophesied of this time. A period of peace will follow during the millenial rule of Christ with His saints.

Revelation is an interesting book. John speaks of what he's shown as if it's happening in front of his eyes. Take chapter 12...the one you refer to...as an example.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

John is obviously describing the birth of Jesus when satan determined to kill him through Herod when He was yet an infant.
Then we see this portion which speaks of satan being "cast out". And a loud voice saying, "Now is come salvation, strength, and the kingdom of our God. Salvation, of course, speaks of Jesus' work on the cross.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And what did Jesus and his followers do...over and over again? They cast out demons. And what did Jesus say?

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

We see satan cast out and the kingdom come in while Jesus was still on this earth.
So to see the next verses as speaking of a future day, doesn't really make sense.

 

[MarkT]

You seem to be making this kind of argument. Yes, Jesus “defeats†Satan at several points before Satan is ultimately dethroned. But ultimately dethroned he is, and you should not deny clear Biblical teaching to this effect:

Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

Now although Satan is dethroned (as this text shows), he remains a power in the world.

Drew

The quote from Col. 2:14,15 - Paul was talking about the demands the law made on us, saying God has forgiven us all our trespasses. He cancelled the bond which stood against us. In effect he nailed the demands of the law to the cross. Concerning the foods we may eat, for example, Paul said, 'Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food.' Col 2:16 There's nothing there about Satan being dethroned.

The Pharisees accused the disciples of breaking the law - plucking ears of grain and eating on the sabbath, healing on the sabbath, eating with unwashed hands. God in Jesus disarmed the Pharisees in public by saying he was lord of the sabbath, and saying, 'Hear and understand: not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.' Mt. 15:10,11 and, 'to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man'. Mt. 15:20

The last line says, 'He (God) disarmed the principalities and powers (the Pharisees) and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him (in his Son).

How can you take something out of the Bible and say it shows something when it clearly does not. It`s not even remotely saying anything about Satan.

 

[MarkT]

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

33 Pilate entered the praetorium again and called Jesus, and said to him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" 34 Jesus answered, "Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?" 35 Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me; what have you done?" 36 Jesus answered, "My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world." RSV

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

Jesus was saying the kingdom of God is not of this world. You are suggesting Jesus was making a political statement. I admonish you and all unclean spirits. You are defiling yourselves.

 

[Free]

I admonish you and all unclean spirits. You are defiling yourselves.

What do mean by this? What are you suggesting? I sure hope that you are not suggesting someone has an unclean spirit simply because they disagree with you.

 

[Drew]

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

Jesus was saying the kingdom of God is not of this world. You are suggesting Jesus was making a political statement. I admonish you and all unclean spirits. You are defiling yourselves.

MarkT, let me ask you ask you a question. Is it an unclean spirit that came with this definition of the greek word that is sometimes translated as "of" in the statement "My kingdom is not of this world"?:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€

MarkT, do you believe that the translators are acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, or was the the original writers who were acting under the Spirit. I believe that it was the original writers. And the greek word that was translated "of" in some translations, really should be read as "from".

Now I know that does not sit well with your position. But I suggest that this an argument you really cannot win - the original writer used a term that suggests that Jesus said something like "My kingdom is not from this world".

Besides, "of" can mean "from" in English anyway. Suppose some alien military comes from Mars to earth to conquer it. And suppose their leader says "I am of Mars". Does that mean that he is denying that he is taking over Earth? Of course not. It is merely a statement of where he is from.

Jesus' kingdom is not from this world, but it certainly is for this world.

 

[glorydaz]

The quote from Col. 2:14,15 - Paul was talking about the demands the law made on us, saying God has forgiven us all our trespasses. He cancelled the bond which stood against us. In effect he nailed the demands of the law to the cross. Concerning the foods we may eat, for example, Paul said, 'Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food.' Col 2:16 There's nothing there about Satan being dethroned.

The last line says, 'He (God) disarmed the principalities and powers (the Pharisees) and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him (in his Son).

How can you take something out of the Bible and say it shows something when it clearly does not. It`s not even remotely saying anything about Satan.

I disagree. "Nailing it to his cross;" has a special significance in this verse. It relates back to 1 Cor. 1:15-20 which is a famous portion of scripture known as the Christ Hymn.

"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." Christ did the spoiling by His work on the cross...He disarmed the heavenly principalities and powers...as in....

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

 

[MarkT]

And, of course, I and others have pointed out that Satan was dethroned at the cross. You seem to be arguing that since there are multiple instances of Jesus "defeating" Satan, this establishes a template that continues forever, with Satan always on the throne and yet being periodically dealt miscellaneous defeats.

This is not correct logic. I will show this by analogy. Suppose Fred is the reigning boxing champion. Suppose he then takes on a contender Joe. After Joe lands lots of punches, Fred is eventually knocked out. Joe is now the new champion. The fact that Fred is the reigning champ while he receives all the punches leading up his being knocked out does not mean that He is not then knocked out and dethroned.

You seem to be making this kind of argument. Yes, Jesus “defeats†Satan at several points before Satan is ultimately dethroned. But ultimately dethroned he is, and you should not deny clear Biblical teaching to this effect:

You're making stuff up again. Jesus sits on the throne of God, high above all authority and rule. This image you have of two men fighting over Satan's throne is ridiculous. Jesus was the heir to the throne of God.

There is nothing in the Bible about Satan being dethroned. So you're making this up. Instead Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world.

This world will pass away. The kingdom of God is eternal. No one wants Satan's title. In case you didn't notice it, Jesus didn't put up any fight. Instead, he let the enemy win (or so they thought). He willingly laid down his life for us.

 

[Drew]

You're making stuff up again. Jesus sits on the throne of God, high above all authority and rule.

If you want to call proper exegisis and argument "making things up", then, yes, I am making things up. And in saying what you say above - that Jesus is above all authority and rule - you are saying what I (and others) have been saying all along - Jesus is the lord of everything, including this earth.

This image you have of two men fighting over Satan's throne is ridiculous. Jesus was the heir to the throne of God.

There is nothing in the Bible about Satan being dethroned. So you're making this up. Instead Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world.

MarkT, do you understand the following;

1. In 2004, we called George W. Bush "President";
2. In 2009, we call Barack Obama "President"

Things change, rulers change. But the fact that Jesus called Satan the ruler of the world before the cross, does not automatically mean that this will never change.

Using your reasoning, we could say that George W. Bush is still President just because people called him President in 2004.

 

[Drew]

Jesus sits on the throne of God, high above all authority and rule.

I am going to read between the lines here and conclude that you are saying that Jesus is "above" authority and rule in the sense that someone thinks they are "above", say, scrubbing floors for a living.

This is not what the text is saying - it is saying that Jesus is the highest of authorities, whether in respect to heavenly matters or earthly one. Jesus is not "above" earthly authority in the sense of not having any involvement in it.