Bible Study JESUS MAKES US FREE - FROM WHAT?

[Highway54]

What is this supposed to mean? You will continue to take selected verses out of context to prove false doctrine?

I simply quoted the Bible sir, you determined that I took them out of context. So don't apply those passages, it is your choice. But I will like I said, in fact I take those passages very seriously Ecc 12:13

 

[jaybo]

We are dead to 603 laws from the OT.
We are not dead to 10 Laws from the hand of God.
They are summed up by Jesus" 2 Great Laws, Commands, as you've stated, they are not abolished.

1. This is the reason some people worship on Saturday....It's one of the 10 commandments.

2. Stating we are not under the Moral Law is akin to abolishing absolute morality and welcoming relative morality - a big topic these days.

3. The New Covenant does not abolish the Moral Law but instead makes it possible to obey it.

Where are these "10 Laws from the hand of God"?

Saying that "we are not under the Moral Law is akin to abolishing absolute morality and welcoming relative morality" and "the New Covenant does not abolish the Moral Law but instead makes it possible to obey it" have no Scriptural basis.

Jesus Christ freed us from the law. You can go on and on claiming otherwise, but what you are claiming is a human invention. One is either led by the Holy Spirit or subject to the entire law. Either Jesus died to free us from the law (as the Bible says) or He didn't. There is no middle ground.

 

[jaybo]

I simply quoted the Bible sir, you determined that I took them out of context. So don't apply those passages, it is your choice. But I will like I said, in fact I take those passages very seriously Ecc 12:13

Again, taking three out-of-context verses from three separate "books" is a very poor way to establish doctrine. You did not quote "the Bible". You selectively chose out-of-context verses, which is somethin entirely different different.

Did you know that the Bible says "there is no God"? You can find it in several places -- if you take it out of context as you did.

You clearly practice eisegesis.

 

[jaybo]

Well, Jaybo,
What I said is what you write.

What I said is what you teach on this forum.

I supplied scripture for you...
and, BTW, I didn't say YOU do that stuff,

I said that ACCORDING TO YOU, it seems as though, yes, we can break every commandment
BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW.

No need for you to forgive me.
Read my post again.

I've asked you many times what you mean by THE LAW.

I do believe you stated that it means ANY law ANY commandment.

You stated that there is no Moral Law taught in the OT.
Do I really have to sit here and make a list of Moral Laws?

Do you think they were made up by MAN
or by GOD?

If they were made up by GOD, don't you think we should OBEY THEM?

The concept of the so-called "moral law" is an unScriptural invention, probably created to compel people to obey some of the law, when the BIble clearly says that Christians are dead to the law, the entire law.

And you write accusatory junk like "I said that ACCORDING TO YOU, it seems as though, yes, we can break every commandment BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW." Are you actually, seriously, saying that about me??? What/who has possessed you to write such garbage???

You are the one who has chopped up the Law of God into separate sections to justify your theology, not me! Again, show me anywhere in the Bible that God's (complete) law is subdivided. You can't, because there is no such division!

Do you really have to sit here and make a list of Moral Laws? Yes! You are, own your own, dividing up God's complete and perfect law into artificial divisions to justify some warped theology.

Again (and again if necessary) I will quote what Paul wrote in Scripture...

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, [read that again and again, as often as necessary, until you accept what Scripture clearly says!!!] because WE HAVE DIED TO WHAT CONTROLLED US, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."

I am sick of discussing this issue. I will not accept what you say is true when it plainly disagrees with God's word!

 

[jaybo]

Looking back over your earlier posts, I read this:
So, IOW, you're saying that it's OK to worship other gods,
Take the name of God in vain,
Dishonor our parents,
Steal,
Kill,
Covet our neighbor's goods,
Falsely testify against someone..."

Since you are clearly judging and condemning me for something that I never said or even implied, I will not discuss this subject with you any further. I will not tolerate such slander from you! Why do you even call yourself a Christian?

 

[Hopeful]

We are dead to 603 laws from the OT.

Agreed, so circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, and tithing have nothing to do with salvation...like Paul made clear in many places.

We are not dead to 10 Laws from the hand of God.

I feel that every day is the Lord's day, since my conversion, so have no seed to set only one day aside for Him.

They are summed up by Jesus" 2 Great Laws, Commands, as you've stated, they are not abolished.

Agreed.

1. This is the reason some people worship on Saturday....It's one of the 10 commandments.

Every day is a day to worship God.

2. Stating we are not under the Moral Law is akin to abolishing absolute morality and welcoming relative morality - a big topic these days.

Some do indeed take it that far...unfortunately.
Others use it to forbid repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, calling those who preach either "legalists".

3. The New Covenant does not abolish the Moral Law but instead makes it possible to obey it.

Agreed.
As it is written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: " (Rom 3:21-22)

 

[Hopeful]

Looking back over your earlier posts, I read this:
So, IOW, you're saying that it's OK to worship other gods,
Take the name of God in vain,
Dishonor our parents,
Steal,
Kill,
Covet our neighbor's goods,
Falsely testify against someone..."

Since you are clearly judging and condemning me for something that I never said or even implied, I will not discuss this subject with you any further. I will not tolerate such slander from you! Why do you even call yourself a Christian?

Is it OK to steal and worship other gods, now that the Law forbidding that is done away with?

 

[jaybo]

We are dead to 603 laws from the OT.
We are not dead to 10 Laws from the hand of God.
They are summed up by Jesus" 2 Great Laws, Commands, as you've stated, they are not abolished.

1. This is the reason some people worship on Saturday....It's one of the 10 commandments.

2. Stating we are not under the Moral Law is akin to abolishing absolute morality and welcoming relative morality - a big topic these days.

3. The New Covenant does not abolish the Moral Law but instead makes it possible to obey it.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

Where are these "10 Laws from the hand of God"?

I did post scripture.
But here it is again:

The 10 Laws (The commandments) are from the hand of God:

Leviticus 22:31
“So you shall keep my commandments and do them: I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 4:13
And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Exodus 31:18
And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deuteronomy 10:4
And he wrote on the tablets, in the same writing as before, the Ten Commandments that the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain out of the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly. And the Lord gave them to me.

Saying that "we are not under the Moral Law is akin to abolishing absolute morality and welcoming relative morality" and "the New Covenant does not abolish the Moral Law but instead makes it possible to obey it" have no Scriptural basis.

The New Covenant is based on Jeremiah 31.
Here it is:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

The above states that God will make a New Covenant.
NOT like the one when the Israelites came out of Egypt and God depended on them to keep the commandments.
The New Covenant's Law will be written on their hearts....
NOT abolished,
but written on the heart.
This will be the new way to keep the Commandments...
Not by Law, but by Love.
But the commandments are not abolished.

Jesus Christ freed us from the law. You can go on and on claiming otherwise, but what you are claiming is a human invention. One is either led by the Holy Spirit or subject to the entire law. Either Jesus died to free us from the law (as the Bible says) or He didn't. There is no middle ground.

There is no middle ground.
This is true.
We, as born again Christians, are REQUIRED to keep the 10 Commandments....
which were the Moral Law of the Old Testament.

 

[Rookie]

Jesus frees us by saving us from sinking in the sea of sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

The concept of the so-called "moral law" is an unScriptural invention, probably created to compel people to obey some of the law, when the BIble clearly says that Christians are dead to the law, the entire law.

And you write accusatory junk like "I said that ACCORDING TO YOU, it seems as though, yes, we can break every commandment BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW." Are you actually, seriously, saying that about me??? What/who has possessed you to write such garbage???

You are the one who has chopped up the Law of God into separate sections to justify your theology, not me! Again, show me anywhere in the Bible that God's (complete) law is subdivided. You can't, because there is no such division!

Do you really have to sit here and make a list of Moral Laws? Yes! You are, own your own, dividing up God's complete and perfect law into artificial divisions to justify some warped theology.

Again (and again if necessary) I will quote what Paul wrote in Scripture...

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, [read that again and again, as often as necessary, until you accept what Scripture clearly says!!!] because WE HAVE DIED TO WHAT CONTROLLED US, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."

I am sick of discussing this issue. I will not accept what you say is true when it plainly disagrees with God's word!

Romans does not the bible make.
And definitely not a few verses in Romans that are taken out of context.

The Old Testament's Laws were divided into categories.
I learned this many years ago.

Ceremonial Laws:
Sacrifices
Offerings
Meat and Drink Offerings
Holy Days

The Ceremonial Laws | White Throne Ministries

It is clear from Scripture that the ceremonial laws had to do with several ordinances which were related to the sanctuary service

whitethroneministries.org

Civil Laws:
Marriage
Inheritance
Penal Laws
Health Laws

https://www.pas.rochester.edu/~tim/study/LawofMoses.pdf

Moral Laws:
The Ten Commandments

What are the Moral Laws of God in the Old Testament?

Moral laws in the Old Testament were not given only to the theocracy of Israel but these were laws based on God’s character and his design for his creation in this world. Many of these laws were k…

biblicalgenderroles.com

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed, so circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, and tithing have nothing to do with salvation...like Paul made clear in many places.

I feel that every day is the Lord's day, since my conversion, so have no seed to set only one day aside for Him.

Agreed.

Every day is a day to worship God.

Some do indeed take it that far...unfortunately.
Others use it to forbid repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, calling those who preach either "legalists".

Agreed.
As it is written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: " (Rom 3:21-22)

Agreed 100%.

 

[Highway54]

I did post scripture.
But here it is again:

The 10 Laws (The commandments) are from the hand of God:

Leviticus 22:31
“So you shall keep my commandments and do them: I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 4:13
And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Exodus 31:18
And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deuteronomy 10:4
And he wrote on the tablets, in the same writing as before, the Ten Commandments that the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain out of the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly. And the Lord gave them to me.



The New Covenant is based on Jeremiah 31.
Here it is:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

The above states that God will make a New Covenant.
NOT like the one when the Israelites came out of Egypt and God depended on them to keep the commandments.
The New Covenant's Law will be written on their hearts....
NOT abolished,
but written on the heart.
This will be the new way to keep the Commandments...
Not by Law, but by Love.
But the commandments are not abolished.


There is no middle ground.
This is true.
We, as born again Christians, are REQUIRED to keep the 10 Commandments....
which were the Moral Law of the Old Testament.

The law covenant consisted of over 600 laws maam, the 10 just being part of them that was written on stone tablets. Jesus' death fulfilled that covenant, as it was really invoked to show the need for Christ, a tutor leading to him.

The new covenant was a moving forward in God's purpose for us humans, it opened the way for non-Israelites to become God's people. It opened the way for some to go to heaven to serve as Kings and Priests over the earth. Very few are actually part of that covenant, but all Christians will benefit from it.

 

[GodsGrace]

The law covenant consisted of over 600 laws maam, the 10 just being part of them that was written on stone tablets. Jesus' death fulfilled that covenant, as it was really invoked to show the need for Christ, a tutor leading to him.

The new covenant was a moving forward in God's purpose for us humans, it opened the way for non-Israelites to become God's people. It opened the way for some to go to heaven to serve as Kings and Priests over the earth. Very few are actually part of that covenant, but all Christians will benefit from it.

What do you mean that very few are part of the New Covenant?

 

[jaybo]

I did post scripture.
But here it is again:

The 10 Laws (The commandments) are from the hand of God:

Leviticus 22:31
“So you shall keep my commandments and do them: I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 4:13
And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Exodus 31:18
And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deuteronomy 10:4
And he wrote on the tablets, in the same writing as before, the Ten Commandments that the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain out of the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly. And the Lord gave them to me.



The New Covenant is based on Jeremiah 31.
Here it is:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

The above states that God will make a New Covenant.
NOT like the one when the Israelites came out of Egypt and God depended on them to keep the commandments.
The New Covenant's Law will be written on their hearts....
NOT abolished,
but written on the heart.
This will be the new way to keep the Commandments...
Not by Law, but by Love.
But the commandments are not abolished.


There is no middle ground.
This is true.
We, as born again Christians, are REQUIRED to keep the 10 Commandments....
which were the Moral Law of the Old Testament.

Okay, we're done. You either don't understand what I have written or you are deliberately distorting it. You are following your own logic, but not what the Bible clearly says.

If you actually think that "we, as born again Christians, are REQUIRED to keep the 10 Commandments" then you have no understanding of the new covenant, for which Jesus died. You have created a false theology which disagrees with Scripture.

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal bodies, so that you obey their desires. No longer present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." Romans 6:12-14

You can manufacture all kinds of unBiblical doctrine, claiming that Christians are under the OT law, but if that is the case you must keep all of it, starting with sacrificing animals for your sins and stoning to death those who violate the law. In the process, you are denying what Jesus died for: to free us from the requirements of the law -- all of them -- and give us righteousness before God.

That is the basis of Christianity. Take it or leave it.

 

[Highway54]

What do you mean that very few are part of the New Covenant?

Early on the day of his death, with the millions of attendees around, Jesus made a covenant with the faithful 11 as recorded for us in Luke 22:28-30. They are later referred to by many titles, little flock, saints, anointed, holy ones, enlightened, etc. They will leave the earth to serve as Kings and Priests with Jesus in the Kingdom of God. They are numbered at Rev 14:3 as 144,000.

 

[jaybo]

Early on the day of his death, with the millions of attendees around, Jesus made a covenant with the faithful 11 as recorded for us in Luke 22:28-30. They are later referred to by many titles, little flock, saints, anointed, holy ones, enlightened, etc. They will leave the earth to serve as Kings and Priests with Jesus in the Kingdom of God. They are numbered at Rev 14:3 as 144,000.

The reference to "millions of attendees" is false.

 

[Highway54]

The reference to "millions of attendees" is false.

It may very well be Jay, I was not there sir, and therefore have no substantial evidence to support such. The Bible does not number them. We do know that it was a commanded celebration, and therefore most of the Jews would definitely try to be there, but then again we don't know the actual population of the Jews in Jesus' day.

With a grain of salt, realizing this is not the Bible so may or may not be true but: Josephus records that, at one Jewish Passover feast in the days of Roman emperor Nero, they found “the number of sacrifices was two hundred and fifty-six thousand five hundred; which, upon the allowance of no more than ten that feast together, amounts to two millions seven hundred thousand and two hundred persons that were pure and holy.”—Wars of the Jews, Book 6, chap. 9, ¶3.

Although you may be correct that I might have erred on the count, the point was that although there was a very large crowd of God's people attending the Passover in Jerusalem, Jesus only broke the bread and wine and made the new covenant with his faithful 11 apostles, not with the entire populace of God's people. Jn 10:16 shows the distinction between those and the other group of God's people.

 

[GodsGrace]

Early on the day of his death, with the millions of attendees around, Jesus made a covenant with the faithful 11 as recorded for us in Luke 22:28-30. They are later referred to by many titles, little flock, saints, anointed, holy ones, enlightened, etc. They will leave the earth to serve as Kings and Priests with Jesus in the Kingdom of God. They are numbered at Rev 14:3 as 144,000.

Jesus didn't have millions of attendees. What do you mean?

Also the number 144,000 is 12X12 .... the tribes of Israel.

Are you saying there are only 144,000 persons in the New Covenant?

The New Covenant is for anyone that wants to be a part of it.
John 3:16 is extended to both Jews and Gentiles

 

[Highway54]

Jesus didn't have millions of attendees. What do you mean?

Also the number 144,000 is 12X12 .... the tribes of Israel.

Are you saying there are only 144,000 persons in the New Covenant?

The New Covenant is for anyone that wants to be a part of it.
John 3:16 is extended to both Jews and Gentiles

Jesus didn't have millions of attendees. What do you mean?

Josephus records that, at one Jewish Passover feast in the days of Roman emperor Nero, they found “the number of sacrifices was two hundred and fifty-six thousand five hundred; which, upon the allowance of no more than ten that feast together, amounts to two millions seven hundred thousand and two hundred persons that were pure and holy.”—Wars of the Jews, Book 6, chap. 9, ¶3.

Also the number 144,000 is 12X12 .... the tribes of Israel.

The Israel of God Gal 6:16

Are you saying there are only 144,000 persons in the New Covenant?

Yes

The New Covenant is for anyone that wants to be a part of it.
John 3:16 is extended to both Jews and Gentiles

The covenant maam:
(Luke 22:28-30) . . .you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. . .
They were bought out through Jesus' blood to: (Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Although not from that fold, the rest of Christians will be the citizens of the Kingdom under their rule Wondering. John 10:16