jesus of nazareth - the 'law' must be written on our hearts?

[newbie_404]

test post (may be deleted after finishing) ;

Moderators, i have submitted a post (before this one) in this thread an hour ago and it hasn't yet appeared. is it lost? do i have to rewrite it? do i still need to do something for my registration?
I will try to rewrite it and post it again

thank you

 

[Free]

test post (may be deleted after finishing) ;

Moderators, i have submitted a post (before this one) in this thread an hour ago and it hasn't yet appeared. is it lost? do i have to rewrite it? do i still need to do something for my registration?
thank you

Should see it now. Not sure what the issue was.

 

[newbie_404]

Personally I think the whole issue here can be simply resolved by just remembering a specific and magnificent phrase uttered by none other than God himself through His Son.
Jesus: ~~God made the sabbath for Man not Man for the sabbath~~

-we (have to) reason and think freely and progressively but always accordingly to our hearts ( with Love towards everything, love towards others and towards God ), and so our hearts lead our thinking minds.


i very much appreciate your responses.

Thank you

 

[smaller]

Many will claim no gain from the O.T.

Men and women however gave their lives exactly for this purpose, so that 'we' would find understandings DIVINE in the accounts of their lives and more importantly 'how' God 'dealt' with them.

Paul did not teach us to turn away from the scriptures. They are in fact for our exact benefit and in this way:

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

I have learned many matters of great HOPE therein and deny none of His Words for this purpose.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Elijah674]

Moses law was not the Eternal Law that God alone wrote on Stone & then recreated into the Born Again heart.

Deut. 31 in part.
[9] And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

....

[24] And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

[25] That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
[26] Take this book of the law, and put [it in the side] of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

This seems clear! And inside of the Ark is the tables of the Eternal Covenant.
One might consider the Word of Ordinance in 2 Chron.? (cermonial laws, not the contents of the Royal Covenant inside the Ark)

2 Chron. 2
[1] And Solomon determined to build an house for the name of the LORD, and an house for his kingdom.
....
[4] Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

(Again, nothing to do with the 10 Commands that God penned. Even note the plurals used in Col. 2
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
....
[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

But had nothing to do with the law of God except 'putting them into the fleshy table of the heart'! [ALL OF THEM!] Heb. 8:10 + Heb. 10:15-16.

But, what were the commandments of Moses? 2 Chron. 8 has this to say:

[12] Then Solomon offered burnt offerings unto the LORD on the altar of the LORD, which he had built before the porch,

[13] Even after a certain rate [[every day]], offering [[according to the commandment of Moses]], on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.

Yes, these were the 's'abbaths of Moses ordinances. Not anything to do with the Eternal Heb. 13:20 Covenant of the Godhead.

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

Moses law was not the Eternal Law that God alone wrote on Stone & then recreated into the Born Again heart.

Yes, these were the 's'abbaths of Moses ordinances. Not anything to do with the Eternal Heb. 13:20 Covenant of the Godhead.

--Elijah

Moses Law/Ordinances were Gods Words. ALL of them.

There is no way to avoid that conclusion to dodge the laws.

It's problematic to divide Gods Words from each others by trying to put some ahead of others. They are all His Words.

They spoke to both natural/carnal command and in the Spiritual to allegory and parable.

s

 

[Elijah674]

Moses Law/Ordinances were Gods Words. ALL of them.

There is no way to avoid that conclusion to dodge the laws.

It's problematic to divide Gods Words from each others by trying to put some ahead of others. They are all His Words.

They spoke to both natural/carnal command and in the Spiritual to allegory and parable.

s

Then you do teach that one must be circumcised in the flesh to be saved, right? If not then your post to 'dodge the laws' is in error as 'i' see it.

And the animal sacrifice is still to be done because we cannot 'divide Gods Word from each others by trying to put some ahead of others' as you say. I don't by that either!

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

Then you do teach that one must be circumcised in the flesh to be saved, right? If not then your post to 'dodge the laws' is in error as 'i' see it.

Paul gave us understanding of exactly how to follow every single jot and tittle of the LAW, every line item, in Romans 13:8-10. Circumcision is a matter of heart is it not? Read down a few more lines in Romans 13 and you'll see what to cut yourself away from as well. If you don't see it, the reason is right there as well, also a 'heart' matter.

And the animal sacrifice is still to be done because we cannot 'divide Gods Word from each others by trying to put some ahead of others' as you say. I don't by that either!

The Law is Spiritual. (Romans 7:14)

The Law is also parable. (Psalm 78:1-2)

Who is the beast of sacrifice but the man controlled by the darkness in their hearts and can not walk as Paul showed us above?

s

 

[John 8:32]

You seem to have not read my entire post. For I said, the Law is not for us in regards to salvation. It is a tutor to show us that we are, in fact, sinners and in need of a Savior. It leads many, if not all, to Christ and grace.

The Old Testament serves a different purpose when one is under grace and not Levitical Law.

John seems to see this differently...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Our right to the tree of life seems to be tied to keeping the commandments here.

 

[John 8:32]

Should you stop at a stop sign? Yes, of course. Are there stop signs on an interstate highway? No. If there were, would you be obliged to stop? Yes. There are some laws that cannot and some that do not apply today.

The laws concerning the Levitical priest hood cannot be applied today because the priesthood has changed to a Melchizidec priesthood. The book of Hebrews explains this pretty well. If there were still a Levitical priesthood, would we follow those laws? Only if you wanted to receive eternal life.

There are some other laws to consider...

Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

One is not supposed to shave a circle on the top of your head or shape one's beard the way the Egytians did to honor their pagan gods. One should not were a beany as those of the RCC do to honor the sun. Hmmm, maybe this is not such a bad law after all. Maybe we should not do things that honor false gods. So the next time someone starts the malarkey about "beard trimmings", think about this.

None of the laws were "nailed to the cross" or done away, the Ultimate Authority says so...

Mat 5:18 For verily Isay unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


If the law is done away, then I have no sin...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


If this is truly the case, I am sinless without Christ and have no need of a Savior. See how dumb this really is? As Paul said...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Elijah674]

Paul gave us understanding of exactly how to follow every single jot and tittle of the LAW, every line item, in Romans 13:8-10. Circumcision is a matter of heart is it not? Read down a few more lines in Romans 13 and you'll see what to cut yourself away from as well. If you don't see it, the reason is right there as well, also a 'heart' matter.


The Law is Spiritual. (Romans 7:14)

The Law is also parable. (Psalm 78:1-2)

Who is the beast of sacrifice but the man controlled by the darkness in their hearts and can not walk as Paul showed us above?

s

I was just taking you at your word in your above post? It was kind of 'in error' as 'i' see it until you disagreed with yourself;) 'you'll see what to cut yourself away from as well'.
But yes, there are indeed other scripture to do away with Moses temp. laws.

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

I was just taking you at your word in your above post? It was kind of 'in error' as 'i' see it until you disagreed with yourself;) 'you'll see what to cut yourself away from as well'.
But yes, there are indeed other scripture to do away with Moses temp. laws.

--Elijah

It is not an uncommon reaction for people to not understand when long held beliefs are put to test and their positions found wanting.

s

 

[Former Christian]

Paul said of the OT:

2 Timothy 3:
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(NIV)

This is meaningless to the Gentile believer if the law in the OT is the law of Moses. For if it’s true that the OT law is just the law of Moses, then it would also be true that this law, and the rest of the OT that is a commentary on that law, is only for the Jews and no one else. Certainly has nothing to do with Gentiles.

Hebrews is written to Jews, not to Gentiles. What meaning does it have for the Gentile?. If the law referred to in Hebrews is the law of Moses, what does Hebrews to do with Gentiles?

Go ahead and take this idea to its logical conclusion. That the law written in the OT is the law of Moses and not the Law of God, and you’ll find that the whole bible, including the NT wasn’t written for Gentile believers at all. Creates quite a paradox considering how often the Gentiles are mentioned in the NT.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(NIV)

The Law written in the Torah is not the law of Moses. It’s the Law of God given through Moses. It’s the same Law that’s written on the heart of the believer. The KJV translation gives a wrong impression because it reads:

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The Greek preposition used in both phrases in that verse is dia, and means through. The Greek verb translated as given in the first phrase is translated correctly. But the Greek verb translated as came in the second phrase means became, not came. Even the modern translations don’t translate this Greek verb correctly. Apparently because of a Tradition. The NASB translates the Greek verb in the second phrase as realized, which is a little closer to the meaning of the Greek.

As John 8:32 has pointed out, if the OT law is just the law of Moses, then the Gentile has no sin. There then is no need of a Saviour, except for the Jews to whom the law of Moses applies and to whom Jesus Christ came. And verses such as John 14:6 and Acts 4:12 only applies to the Jews, to whom they were written according to context.

But we know we’re dealing with an interpretation of men because Jews and Gentiles alike die. Just as did Adam, who lived well before the time the Law was given through Moses. The death that is the source of sin to all except Adam is present in all. In Adam, the source of death was sin.

The Law of God is the Law of God. It doesn’t change nor is it abrogated. The appropriate parts of the Law of God has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. All of the Law, including the part fulfilled in Jesus Christ, is written on the hearts of the one who is in Christ. Whether this Law has been misunderstood through the practice of interpretation or not.

FC

 

[smaller]

This is meaningless to the Gentile believer if the law in the OT is the law of Moses. For if it’s true that the OT law is just the law of Moses, then it would also be true that this law, and the rest of the OT that is a commentary on that law, is only for the Jews and no one else. Certainly has nothing to do with Gentiles.

Hebrews is written to Jews, not to Gentiles. What meaning does it have for the Gentile?. If the law referred to in Hebrews is the law of Moses, what does Hebrews to do with Gentiles?

Go ahead and take this idea to its logical conclusion. That the law written in the OT is the law of Moses and not the Law of God, and you’ll find that the whole bible, including the NT wasn’t written for Gentile believers at all. Creates quite a paradox considering how often the Gentiles are mentioned in the NT.

Please allow the obvious to enter into your 'interpretations.'

The Words that were given to Moses were GODS WORDS.

Jesus Himself said that man shall live by EVERY WORD of God. That would be how many in the interpretive sense? Some or EVERY...? hmmmm? Nope, no interpretation required to see EVERY as EVERY.

The only difficulty would be, interpretation! The very thing you claim to be against.

Now, if you want to NOT interpret what ALL of those Words of Moses mean, Words given BY and FROM God, Paul has already 'fast tracked' the entirety, that is ANY COMMAND and how they should be understood in Romans 13:8-10.

So anywhere you see ANY COMMAND, just run it back to the Apostles teaching in Romans 13:8-10 and every single command in the entire Bible MEANS what the Apostle said, and not how 'any' particular individual may 'interpret' same.

Interpretation not required.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Law of God is the Law of God. It doesn’t change nor is it abrogated.

It has changed in regard to what is still literally required to be done by the people of God (meaning those who believe in Christ).

The appropriate parts of the Law of God has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Yes, fulfilled, not abolished. And fulfilled so that no further literal action is legally required anymore in regard to those fulfilled parts of that law for purposes of remaining in covenant with God.

All of the Law, including the part fulfilled in Jesus Christ, is written on the hearts of the one who is in Christ. Whether this Law has been misunderstood through the practice of interpretation or not.

The fulfilled parts of the law are written on our hearts spiritually, not literally in that they are binding commands that the people of God do not have to continue to fulfill literally. We 'keep' (satisfy, meet, fulfill, etc.) certain worship requirements of the law when we believe in Christ. And since those certain requirements remain satisfied, there is no more legal obligation to the literal. Faith in Christ has fulfilled, and continues to fulfill, the outstanding debt of the law for those things such that no literal Mosaic debt of sacrifice and worship remains to be paid.

 

[John 8:32]

It has changed in regard to what is still literally required to be done by the people of God (meaning those who believe in Christ).

At this point I would ask, what has changed about dishonoring your parents? Committing murder? Adultery? Lying? etc. not to mention the first four? What has changed about them is to think thoughts of this, to commit these sins in your heart is just as sinful as acting them out. This is what Christ said about fulfilling them.

Yes, fulfilled, not abolished. And fulfilled so that no further literal action is legally required anymore in regard to those fulfilled parts of that law for purposes of remaining in covenant with God.

Take two styrofoam cups, one in each hand. Crush the one in your left hand and discard it. Fill the one in your right hand with water to the brim. Now tell me which one you fulfilled?

The fulfilled parts of the law are written on our hearts spiritually, not literally in that they are binding commands that the people of God do not have to continue to fulfill literally. We 'keep' (satisfy, meet, fulfill, etc.) certain worship requirements of the law when we believe in Christ. And since those certain requirements remain satisfied, there is no more legal obligation to the literal. Faith in Christ has fulfilled, and continues to fulfill, the outstanding debt of the law for those things such that no literal Mosaic debt of sacrifice and worship remains to be paid.

How do you not murder someone in your heart, all the while you are pumping them full of lead? How do you not commit adultery while lusting and drooling over pornographic material?

Christ added a dimension to the law, He did not take anything away from it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

At this point I would ask, what has changed about dishonoring your parents? Committing murder? Adultery? Lying? etc.

Nothing. The "continuing debt to love one another" remains (Romans 13:8 NIV1984).

...not to mention the first four?

The fourth was fulfilled by the work of Christ on the cross. It is no longer literally required to keep it in order to remain in covenant with God and avoid death. The people of God remain in Covenant with God and enter into His ordained rest and avoid death through faith in Christ now. The old way of the Sabbath Rest is no longer needed to do that.

What has changed about them is to think thoughts of this, to commit these sins in your heart is just as sinful as acting them out. This is what Christ said about fulfilling them.

Well, actually, it was always against the law to "hate your brother in your heart" and "bear a grudge against one of your people", and "covet your neighbor’s wife" (Lev. 19:17-18, Exodus 20:17 NIV1984).

The point being, law keeping did in fact demand inner obedience--a total rebuke to the Pharisees who took pride in the "outside of the cup and dish" but who were "full of greed and self-indulgence" (Matthew 23:25 NIV1984).

Take two styrofoam cups, one in each hand. Crush the one in your left hand and discard it. Fill the one in your right hand with water to the brim. Now tell me which one you fulfilled?

In keeping with the illustration, the one that got filled with water of course, but, whether or not it is required to do that depends on what the law regarding the cup is, and whether the work of Christ on the cross makes the literal fulfilling of the cup obsolete and no longer needed or not.

How do you not murder someone in your heart, all the while you are pumping them full of lead? How do you not commit adultery while lusting and drooling over pornographic material?

You can't, but as I said these particular obligations of the law remain outstanding debts of godly love that we owe others. These obligations are "summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself" (Romans 13:9 NIV1984).

Christ added a dimension to the law...

This is true. He added the dimension of having "sincere love for your brothers...deeply, from the heart" (1 Peter 1:22 NIV1984), serving God "in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code" (Romans 7: NIV1984).

...He did not take anything away from it.

This is correct in that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. But the fulfilling of the first covenant worship laws did make them not required to be literally fulfilled by us anymore. That doesn't mean you can't. It means you don't have to.

 

[John 8:32]

I would like to see the words the law is done away or something to that effect from the mouth of the one who gave the law on Mt. Sinai. One can argue that it was "nailed to the cross" or that Jesus did it for us, but Christ, Himself said to keep His commandments...

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

 

[jasoncran]

christ also said go and sell all and he also said we ought to do as the pharisees bid.

so that means when the jews say fast we should fast and also when the temple is built should we then also go to there for the yearly sacrifice?

 

[Former Christian]

Put the Law aside through your interpretations and the OT will have little real meaning to you apart from further interpretations. That’s what happened to the Sadducees and Pharisees. They were deceived by the web of their own interpretations.

Whatever Paul said was what he believed the OT itself said. The NT isn’t something separate from the OT. It’s simply a continuation of the OT after the ascension of Christ. When sufficient was written that God deemed sufficient, there was no more revelation. Interpretations, even though they purportedly are explanations of that revelation, are interpretive additions to that revelation. Since interpretations have their source in man, they will be as variable as is man in his thinking.

If the Law as given in the Pentateuch is the Law of God and the rest of the OT is commentary on that Law, then in order to be one who follows Christ, the one who kept the Law perfectly, as seen in the claim that he didn’t sin, Then Paul must of necessity also keep that same Law.

Only the Tabernacle ritual was a type of Christ and the Body of Christ. Christ and the Body of Christ fulfills that part of the Law. And because of that fulfillment, those who are in Christ today participate in a different sacrifice than the one delineated in the Law. But a sacrifice that isn’t a different sacrifice. Only a fulfilled sacrifice of which those who are in Christ are eternally a part. Nothing has changed but form. A form prior to Christ’s fulfillment and a form after Christ’s fulfillment. Nothing at all has changed in the rest of the Law. The moral, dietary, and societal aspects of the Law continue to be what they always were intended to be. A guide to daily living according to the intention of God. The Law was never intended to become a source of the Traditions of men as it did among the Jews of the first century. Nor was the Law ever intended to become of no effect as it has in Christianity. Even the part of the Law governing sexual activity has come into question in Christianity through the practice of biblical interpretation.

The Law that came through Moses isn’t something different from the Law of God. The Law that came through Moses isn’t something different from the Law written on the hearts of those who are in Christ. The Law was initially written on stone, then on parchment and paper, then on electronic devices available today. And for two millennia this same Law has been written on the hearts of those who are in Christ.

To fulfill the Law isn’t the same as destroying the Law. Seems to me that Jesus was pretty clear about that. Yet anyone who says that the Law was changed to the degree that it’s no longer applicable to us today has destroyed the Law in his own mind. Jesus wasn’t for this, nor was Paul.

Those who are in Christ are intended to fulfill the Law as did Christ, through the Spirit. That’s what Rom 8 is all about. There is only one purpose for those who are in Christ on the earth. To be conformed to the image of Christ, the one who kept the Law perfectly, and to express that image in the world.

Both the Jew and Gentile converts must without judgment be allowed to learn and grow. And until they grow to the point that they understand what the Law is and how it is to be used, they should be allowed freedoms. But today the Freedoms themselves have become the laws in Christianity. Like Rom 14 and 15. The law in Christianity today is that you can eat what you want. It doesn’t matter that the Law of God says something different. There can be no growth in real knowledge so long as the only knowledge available are the laws of the Traditions of men.


The Law obviously hasn’t yet been written on the hearts of those who would reject the same Law written on stone.


Jethro Bodine

“But the fulfilling of the first covenant worship laws did make them not required to be literally fulfilled by us anymore. That doesn't mean you can't. It means you don't have to.â€

And the natural inclination of man is if we don’t have to do it, then why do it? But it’s not about have to or not. It’s not about forcing ourselves to love God with all our heart or to love our neighbor as ourselves. It’s all about being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ so we will be as he is. The one who loves God with the whole heart. The one who loves the neighbor as the self. When Paul said “love is the fulfilling of the law.†(Rom 13:10 KJV), he certainly didn’t intend to imply that the whole of life is to be built around that idea. He had just got through naming many moral laws. Building Traditions around an emphasis is the forte of Christians.

FC