Jesus on adultry

[Slider]

Hello all,

I've always thought these verses were interesting:


<dir>Mat 5:27



Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28



But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

</dir>
I'd like to know what you folks think of this and pose 3 sets of questions:

1. Is this limited to men only? (rather easy question!)
2. To what extent is this true? Does it mean if a man pursues a relationship, but never actually goes through with it? Does it mean if he dwells on it for a set period of time? Or does it mean if you just causally look and say to yourself, "She's very desirable"?
3. Is this just isolated to adultry and looking at a woman to lust, or are all sins we desire to do -- but don't go through with them -- included? For example, if you plan to tell a lie, but don't go through with it, are you guilty of lying?

What do you all think?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Slider, I'd like to give you my take on this.

Thinking lust is sin.
Dwelling on it is more sin.
Acting on it is fulfilling the sin.

We all think about it whether we want to admit it or not.
The key is not to dwell on it.
Let go and start thinking about God.
Sing a praise song.

The apostle Paul talks about working out our salvation.
We are sanctified when we are walking with God.
The falling away is when we fulfill our desires by acting on it.

When I got saved, I stayed pure praying to God for the right wife.
Three years later I got married.
I was able to tell her, "from the day I got saved I waited for you".

The spirit of God carried me the whole way because the temptations were great.
I guess for me the answer was waiting for God to give me the "right" wife and trusting that he would do just that.
Then waiting patiently until he answered my prayers.

 

[Classik]

I have thought about those a million times and have had threads on two or one of them. I am still as confused.:dunno

 

[seagullplayer]

Perhaps worth consideration;

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1. Is this limited to men only? (rather easy question!) no

2. To what extent is this true? Does it mean if a man pursues a relationship, but never actually goes through with it? Does it mean if he dwells on it for a set period of time? Or does it mean if you just causally look and say to yourself, "She's very desirable"?

To lust after something would seem to mean you desire it for your own use? Without consideration for anyone else? Temptation is not sin, Christ was tempted but sinned not, it is when we start to formulate our "plan"(conceive?). There is no set time, it could be seconds. If you feel guilty about it, that would seem to be your answer.


3. Is this just isolated to adultry and looking at a woman to lust, or are all sins we desire to do -- but don't go through with them -- included? For example, if you plan to tell a lie, but don't go through with it, are you guilty of lying?

I believe Christ's intent here was telling us that sin is not limited to what we do but starts in the mind (heart).

Matthew 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

 

[Mike]

In regard to the 3rd question, Jesus said of his people in Matthew 16:4 that it was a wicked and adulterous generation. If we, the Church, are His bride, and we stray from our first love (the Lord), we are adulterous. We do, and we are, but by His blood we are cleansed from all unrighteousness.

All earthly analogies fall short of His Love, but if I were to think about betraying my wife with another woman, the shame would be overwhelming. So it is poignant for me that He uses that word to describe our betrayal of Him. In the scripture given, I believe He's focusing literally on sexual lust.

I agree that when we dwell on an image, when it holds a place in our mind, we've crossed the line into adultery. Glancing at a hottie in the car at a red light with the fleeting thought that she is gorgeous isn't yet adultery, IMO. If the light turns green, and you're thinking about her a half mile down the road it is.

 

[Mountainshield]

Though I agree with allenwynne,

I used to listen to radio host Dennis Prager for 5 years before, he knows everything in the old testament. From what he said it is not sin to desire other women, I don't remember the justification he gave for it though but it was biological justification. Men may desire other women when staring, but men also forget them 5 seconds later.

(1) Women are also attracted to other physically attractive men than their husbands, it doesn't just have to be body form, usually a alpha attention male is more physicallly attractive than a surfer boy. Take for example that extreme makeover guy "Tygert Burton" he is not that pretty by modern standards (that want men to look like boys/girls) but he gets allot of stares from lusting women and wives :p

Though women like too see naked men, we never see tons nudity magazines or online ads displaying men.

(2) I think its sin even just to glance at another woman just for beauty in lust. I don't mean that its sin to acknowledge and appreciate beauty in other women, but if you i.e see a great censored by staff and glance at it because you know you want it, it is sin. But for example watching a movie or something similar seeing a beautifull woman and acknowledging she is beautifull without desiring her is not sin.

(3) I had to think twice and reconsider my position on your analogy. And I think it its sin either way, same with planning to lie. Because you are in effect committing sin in your mind and soul. EDIT: I agree with the other posts on this one.

 

[for_his_glory]

When we put that of the worldly desires above that of what God desires in us it all becomes adultery. Adultery isn't only lusting after the opposite sex, it is lusting after anything that becomes an idol to us or even a graven image.

 

[for_his_glory]

Though I agree with allenwynne,

I used to listen to radio host Dennis Prager for 5 years before, he knows everything in the old testament. From what he said it is not sin to desire other women, I don't remember the justification he gave for it though but it was biological justification. Men may desire other women when staring, but men also forget them 5 seconds later.

(1) Women are also attracted to other physically attractive men than their husbands, it doesn't just have to be body form, usually a alpha attention male is more physicallly attractive than a surfer boy. Take for example that extreme makeover guy "Tygert Burton" he is not that pretty by modern standards (that want men to look like boys/girls) but he gets allot of stares from lusting women and wives :p

Though women like too see naked men, we never see tons nudity magazines or online ads displaying men.

(2) I think its sin even just to glance at another woman just for beauty in lust. I don't mean that its sin to acknowledge and appreciate beauty in other women, but if you i.e see a great ass and glance at it because you know you want it, it is sin. But for example watching a movie or something similar seeing a beautifull woman and acknowledging she is beautifull without desiring her is not sin.

(3) I had to think twice and reconsider my position on your analogy. And I think it its sin either way, same with planning to lie. Because you are in effect committing sin in your mind and soul. EDIT: I agree with the other posts on this one.

There is a big difference in a statement we either speak out loud or just in our mind.
For example: That's a very beautiful women, or a very handsome man. Just a statement of fact without sexual intentions of thought or action
For Example: That's a beautiful women, or a very handsome man, I would love to get me some of that.
See the difference as this is the way God sees the intents of our heart by the way we think and also speak. First example was just a complement and the second example was sexual lust.

 

[Slider]

Hi Slider, I'd like to give you my take on this.

Thinking lust is sin.
Dwelling on it is more sin.
Acting on it is fulfilling the sin.

We all think about it whether we want to admit it or not.
The key is not to dwell on it.
Let go and start thinking about God.
Sing a praise song.

The apostle Paul talks about working out our salvation.
We are sanctified when we are walking with God.
The falling away is when we fulfill our desires by acting on it.

When I got saved, I stayed pure praying to God for the right wife.

Alllenwynne, thanks for your response. I must say it was great that you were able to do that (concerning your wife) through the Holy Spirit. I'm happy to hear (I suppose not 'happy') you say that we are all think about it whether we want to admit it or not. I believe that to be true and that the key is not to dwell on it and get our mind back on Christ. Good stuff!

I don't know if I would agree that the falling away is acting on it, but only in the sense of the phrase "falling away". Paul used that term in 2 Thes 2:3, and while it does fit on a fleshly level, it appears to me that Paul was speaking of a falling away due to false doctrine. However, I'm not opposed to what you are saying as a metaphor for that. God often used adultry and lust of the flesh as a metaphor for falling away from Truth.

You also mentioned "sin, more sin, and fulfilling the sin". On the human level I think we all agree. However, are you saying there are degrees of sin or are you saying that its still sin, but by dwelling it we are prolonging it, and by acting on it, we have filled up the sin on that particular thing? (Jas 1:15 comes to mind). The reason I ask is that it doesn't seem to me that there are degrees of sin with God, due to these teachings in Mat 5 as well as Jas 2:10 which says if we offend in one point, we are guilty of all.

I do appreciate your answers and commentary.

 

[Slider]

I have thought about those a million times and have had threads on two or one of them. I am still as confused.:dunno

It's pretty rare to hear, on message boards or on the street, someone admit they are confused and don't know. I appreciate that!

 

[Slider]

Perhaps worth consideration;

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


To lust after something would seem to mean you desire it for your own use? Without consideration for anyone else? Temptation is not sin, Christ was tempted but sinned not, it is when we start to formulate our "plan"(conceive?). There is no set time, it could be seconds. If you feel guilty about it, that would seem to be your answer.

I believe Christ's intent here was telling us that sin is not limited to what we do but starts in the mind (heart).

QUOTE]

Thanks seagullplayer. I had not considered Jas 1:15 when I started this thread and didn't even find it again until after I started writing my response to allen. Yet, you listed it! I agree with you on that lst statement...

 

[Slider]

IMO. If the light turns green, and you're thinking about her a half mile down the road it is.

Well, is a quarter mile ok? If I forget about her after a half mile, then she's at the next red light, do I get another half mile? Just kidding! I get what you are saying.

Well, I'm only half kidding. I do agree on not dwelling on it, but Jesus didn't set a time limit. I do agree that temptation is not the same thing as sinning... I also agree with Jas 1:15, as it has been mentioned. I am not so sure I agree with any "time limit".

 

[Slider]

When we put that of the worldly desires above that of what God desires in us it all becomes adultery. Adultery isn't only lusting after the opposite sex, it is lusting after anything that becomes an idol to us or even a graven image.

Amen to that!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Alllenwynne, thanks for your response. I must say it was great that you were able to do that (concerning your wife) through the Holy Spirit. I'm happy to hear (I suppose not 'happy') you say that we are all think about it whether we want to admit it or not. I believe that to be true and that the key is not to dwell on it and get our mind back on Christ. Good stuff!

I don't know if I would agree that the falling away is acting on it, but only in the sense of the phrase "falling away". Paul used that term in 2 Thes 2:3, and while it does fit on a fleshly level, it appears to me that Paul was speaking of a falling away due to false doctrine. However, I'm not opposed to what you are saying as a metaphor for that. God often used adultry and lust of the flesh as a metaphor for falling away from Truth.

You also mentioned "sin, more sin, and fulfilling the sin". On the human level I think we all agree. However, are you saying there are degrees of sin or are you saying that its still sin, but by dwelling it we are prolonging it, and by acting on it, we have filled up the sin on that particular thing? (Jas 1:15 comes to mind). The reason I ask is that it doesn't seem to me that there are degrees of sin with God, due to these teachings in Mat 5 as well as Jas 2:10 which says if we offend in one point, we are guilty of all.

I do appreciate your answers and commentary.

Hi Slider, no I didn't mean that there are degrees of sin.
I meant the way it can take hold in our lives.
I've known people to just give into it for whatever reasons.
Once you give into it, it's got you. Then the work begins to get back to where you once were.

It's interesting how I can express myself and other people see what I'm saying differently. Falling away may have been expressed better also.

I think that happens to me too when other people are writing.

 

[Slider]

Hi Slider, no I didn't mean that there are degrees of sin.
I meant the way it can take hold in our lives.
I've known people to just give into it for whatever reasons.
Once you give into it, it's got you. Then the work begins to get back to where you once were.

It's interesting how I can express myself and other people see what I'm saying differently. Falling away may have been expressed better also.

I think that happens to me too when other people are writing.

That's why I asked.... I wasn't sure which way you were going. Its always better to ask for clarification. Thanks.

 

[Mike]

Well, is a quarter mile ok? If I forget about her after a half mile, then she's at the next red light, do I get another half mile? Just kidding! I get what you are saying.

Well, I'm only half kidding. I do agree on not dwelling on it, but Jesus didn't set a time limit. I do agree that temptation is not the same thing as sinning... I also agree with Jas 1:15, as it has been mentioned. I am not so sure I agree with any "time limit".

I agree, I think. I wasn't using any measurement of time or distance as a limit. The half-mile was used to illustrate my point. I don't want to be that guy that leans on a crutch and says "I was born this way", but I do believe we are wired in a way that make noticing a beautiful woman an instinct to a certain extent. It's just that difficult for me to not notice.

My point is that when an image or thought takes hold for more than that moment, there's a case to be made that the line has been crossed. To that extent, maybe I do define a time frame.

Of course any sexual thought, no matter how fleeting, is sinful.

 

[Slider]

I agree, I think. I wasn't using any measurement of time or distance as a limit. The half-mile was used to illustrate my point. I don't want to be that guy that leans on a crutch and says "I was born this way", but I do believe we are wired in a way that make noticing a beautiful woman an instinct to a certain extent. It's just that difficult for me to not notice.

My point is that when an image or thought takes hold for more than that moment, there's a case to be made that the line has been crossed. To that extent, maybe I do define a time frame.

Of course any sexual thought, no matter how fleeting, is sinful.

I absolutely agree!

 

[Slider]

Well, you folks were kind enough to give your thoughts, so here are mine (other than what I've said in follow up discussions).

First off, yes of course it applies to women as well. Second, I see it as the second you have formed the thought, you've committed adultry in your heart, no matter how fleeting. I do agree that the more you dwell on it, the worse it becomes, but since it seems that we all agree there's no real "cut off" point, I tend to believe once it's there, it's there.

Next, this was just one little nugget in many Jesus spoke about in this discourse, so I don't think it's limited to adultry, but any lust of the flesh or eye or heart. It's showing that if you so much to think to sin in your heart, you have committed that sin.

I asked these questions because overall I get a very important point being made. the Law itself (without what Jesus explained) is hard enough to follow. None of the forefathers could keep it. Then Jesus came along and said, "yea, not only that.... But if you just think about breaking the Law of Moses, you've broken it!". Jesus made the Law even harder to keep, and it was impossible to keep in the first place!

I then think of a line in Romans 5: "Moreover, the law entered that the offense might abound, but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."

So, the conclusion I get is that Jesus was telling us we need someone bigger than ourselves!

 

[Aardverk]

.......I don't want to be that guy that leans on a crutch and says "I was born this way", but I do believe we are wired in a way that make noticing a beautiful woman an instinct to a certain extent. It's just that difficult for me to not notice.

My point is that when an image or thought takes hold for more than that moment, there's a case to be made that the line has been crossed. To that extent, maybe I do define a time frame.

Of course any sexual thought, no matter how fleeting, is sinful.

It can not be denied that we are 'born that way'. Men find women attractive and visa versa. If that were not the case the human race would die out.

Given that is the way God made us, I can not see how, 'any sexual thought, no matter how fleeting, is sinful'. God knows that we have these thoughts and he obviously wants us to have them. Without 'sexual thoughts' I doubt many people would get married and there certainly wouldn't be much begetting going on. Many of us develop an instinct to bring children into this world but for most healthy young people the instinct to satisfy their sexual desire is obviously much stronger. Are we to think that God did not give us that desire?

Given those assumptions, I can not agree that a 'fleeting sexual thought' is a sin. The sin occurs depending upon your own situation, in my opinion. If you are free and single I see nothing wrong with acknowledging your own God-given sexual desires. They may well lead to a good and healthy marriage. If you are already married or the object of your desire is married, I am certain that you should put away any such thoughts without delay. If you did not, then that is the adultery described in Matthew 5:28 - in my opinion.

I don't think we are meant to totally ignore beautiful fawns ;) and that's before we get to the fruit metaphors and the garden response.

 

[Classik]

Sexual desire is a beautiful thing. Outside of marriage?