Jesus: Our Substitute and Representative

[Robert Pate]

Believing that Jesus is our substitute and representative is the key to understanding the Gospel.

A substitute is one that takes your place. When Jesus died on the cross, he took our place. We were the ones that sinned, we were the ones that should have been crucified. Jesus took our sins upon himself and died in our place as our substitute. The results are that all of our sins have been atoned for.

A representative is one that acts in our name and on our behalf. There is a fine line between a substitute and a representative. Jesus in our name and on our behalf fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law as our representative. The results are that we have been justified, Romans 3:26.

God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man. 1. A life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law. 2. A perfect atonement for man's sins and the sins of the whole world. Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has victoriously met both of these requirements. The results are that we are perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity. All that Jesus is and all that Jesus did was for our salvation and justification. God sees ALL THINGS in Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil and now sits in heaven as "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

When Jesus had accomplished the will of the Father and was accepted back into heaven, we were accepted in him. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God sees us in Christ, Colossians 3:3.

 

[Mungo]

Believing that Jesus is our substitute and representative is the key to understanding the Gospel.

A substitute is one that takes your place. When Jesus died on the cross, he took our place. We were the ones that sinned, we were the ones that should have been crucified. Jesus took our sins upon himself and died in our place as our substitute. The results are that all of our sins have been atoned for.

A representative is one that acts in our name and on our behalf. There is a fine line between a substitute and a representative. Jesus in our name and on our behalf fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law as our representative. The results are that we have been justified, Romans 3:26.

God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man. 1. A life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law. 2. A perfect atonement for man's sins and the sins of the whole world. Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has victoriously met both of these requirements. The results are that we are perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity. All that Jesus is and all that Jesus did was for our salvation and justification. God sees ALL THINGS in Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil and now sits in heaven as "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

When Jesus had accomplished the will of the Father and was accepted back into heaven, we were accepted in him. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God sees us in Christ, Colossians 3:3.

If your claim is true then you believe in universalism. Everyone is saved.

 

[Robert Pate]

If your claim is true then you believe in universalism. Everyone is saved.

Salvation has been provided for everyone by the doing and the dying of Jesus, Hebrews 2:9. But nothing is ours until it is received by faith, John 1:12.

 

[Mungo]

Salvation has been provided for everyone by the doing and the dying of Jesus, Hebrews 2:9. But nothing is ours until it is received by faith, John 1:12.

So you agree there is something WE have to do to be saved.

 

[Robert Pate]

So you agree there is something WE have to do to be saved.

Not really. Faith is not a work; it is a mental ascension to a truth.

Jesus didn't come into the world to show you the way. Jesus came into the world to be the way, John 14:6.

 

[Mungo]

Not really. Faith is not a work; it is a mental ascension to a truth.

Jesus didn't come into the world to show you the way. Jesus came into the world to be the way, John 14:6.

Scripture doesn't say anything about a "mental ascension to a truth." Scripture says believe. we are preached the gospel and have a choice whether we believe it or not. It is something WE have to do.

 

[Robert Pate]

Scripture doesn't say anything about a "mental ascension to a truth." Scripture says believe. we are preached the gospel and have a choice whether we believe it or not. It is something WE have to do.

If you believed the Gospel, you would not need Catholicism. You would be resting in Jesus Christ, Hebrews 4:10.

 

[Mungo]

If you believed the Gospel, you would not need Catholicism. You would be resting in Jesus Christ, Hebrews 4:10.

That comment is a total avoidance from answering my post.
Let me repeat it:
Scripture doesn't say anything about a "mental ascension to a truth." Scripture says believe. we are preached the gospel and have a choice whether we believe it or not. It is something WE have to do.

 

[Robert Pate]

That comment is a total avoidance from answering my post.
Let me repeat it:
Scripture doesn't say anything about a "mental ascension to a truth." Scripture says believe. we are preached the gospel and have a choice whether we believe it or not. It is something WE have to do.

Those that believe the Gospel do not continue to be religious. They cease from their own works and enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10. You are not there.

 

[Mungo]

Those that believe the Gospel do not continue to be religious. They cease from their own works and enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10. You are not there.

I believe the gospel. It's you who seem to have invented your own gospel.
And you are avoiding answering my points.

Scripture doesn't say anything about a "mental ascension to a truth." Scripture says believe. We are preached the gospel and have a choice whether we believe it or not. It is something WE have to do.

 

[Robert Pate]

I believe the gospel. It's you who seem to have invented your own gospel.
And you are avoiding answering my points.

Scripture doesn't say anything about a "mental ascension to a truth." Scripture says believe. We are preached the gospel and have a choice whether we believe it or not. It is something WE have to do.

No, you don't believe the Gospel. You still think that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the Gospel. The Gospel is the work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf, that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

 

[Mungo]

No, you don't believe the Gospel. You still think that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the Gospel. The Gospel is the work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf, that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

And Matthew, Mark, Luke and John recorded all that Jesus did in our name. The apostles witnessed it all and Jesus said they were to witness that to the world.
Luke writes in Acts:
In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God........But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:1-3 & 8)

And in Acts 2 they taught this
"Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. But God raised him up, having loosed the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.....This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear. (Acts 2:22-24 & 32-33)

They did not learn this for the first time at Pentecost.

 

[Robert Pate]

And Matthew, Mark, Luke and John recorded all that Jesus did in our name. The apostles witnessed it all and Jesus said they were to witness that to the world.
Luke writes in Acts:
In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God........But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:1-3 & 8)

And in Acts 2 they taught this
"Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. But God raised him up, having loosed the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.....This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear. (Acts 2:22-24 & 32-33)

They did not learn this for the first time at Pentecost.

Of course they did. After Jesus was crucified they hid themselves for fear of persecution. But on the day of Pentecost when they heard what Jesus had accomplished on their behalf, they became powerful preachers of the Gospel. The Pharisees tried to stop them from preaching Jesus, but they stood up to them, Acts 4:18-20.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Believing that Jesus is our substitute and representative is the key to understanding the Gospel.

I disagree with your understanding of the gospel.

A substitute is one that takes your place. When Jesus died on the cross, he took our place.

God doesn't allow any person to pay the "penalty for that person."

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

We were the ones that sinned, we were the ones that should have been crucified.

Yes and our Savior was crucified in violation of Moses' law.

if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother Deu.18:18-19

This shows clearly that our Lord suffered unjustly, according to what the law says.

Jesus took our sins upon himself and died in our place as our substitute. The results are that all of our sins have been atoned for.

A representative is one that acts in our name and on our behalf. There is a fine line between a substitute and a representative. Jesus in our name and on our behalf fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law as our representative. The results are that we have been justified, Romans 3:26.

Atonement, or oneness with our Father, happens when we're made aware of our sins and repent of them.
Then we're in agreement with him.

God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man. 1. A life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law.

Where fallen man is concerned, the law was instituted by God to show us we're all sinners in need of mercy and should show mercy to others.

enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2

2. A perfect atonement for man's sins and the sins of the whole world. Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has victoriously met both of these requirements. The results are that we are perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

The Son came in his Fathers' name and on his Fathers' behalf. The result of sinning against the Son will be judgment without mercy for not repenting of it. In fact, there is no greater sin against God than what was done to his Son,

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God Heb.10:29

Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity. All that Jesus is and all that Jesus did was for our salvation and justification. God sees ALL THINGS in Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil and now sits in heaven as "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

When Jesus had accomplished the will of the Father and was accepted back into heaven, we were accepted in him. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God sees us in Christ, Colossians 3:3.

In Col.3, Paul telling us that believers put their own flesh to death. That's what being "in Christ" means, because that's what Jesus did and we follow him.

 

[Mungo]

Of course they did. After Jesus was crucified they hid themselves for fear of persecution. But on the day of Pentecost when they heard what Jesus had accomplished on their behalf, they became powerful preachers of the Gospel. The Pharisees tried to stop them from preaching Jesus, but they stood up to them, Acts 4:18-20.

Jesus spent 40 days teaching them after his resurrection.
"To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God".
That was before Pentecost. They knew what he had done for them before Pentecost.

They then stayed together praying in the upper room because Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem and wait until the Holy Spirit came upon them (Acts 1:4-5).

 

[Robert Pate]

I disagree with your understanding of the gospel.

God doesn't allow any person to pay the "penalty for that person."

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

Yes and our Savior was crucified in violation of Moses' law.

if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother Deu.18:18-19

This shows clearly that our Lord suffered unjustly, according to what the law says.

Atonement, or oneness with our Father, happens when we're made aware of our sins and repent of them.
Then we're in agreement with him.

Where fallen man is concerned, the law was instituted by God to show us we're all sinners in need of mercy and should show mercy to others.

enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2


The Son came in his Fathers' name and on his Fathers' behalf. The result of sinning against the Son will be judgment without mercy for not repenting of it. In fact, there is no greater sin against God than what was done to his Son,

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God Heb.10:29

In Col.3, Paul telling us that believers put their own flesh to death. That's what being "in Christ" means, because that's what Jesus did and we follow him.

Your doctrine is basically Roman Catholicism. Are you a Catholic?

Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Repentance is not going to save you.

 

[Robert Pate]

Jesus spent 40 days teaching them after his resurrection.
"To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God".
That was before Pentecost. They knew what he had done for them before Pentecost.

They then stayed together praying in the upper room because Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem and wait until the Holy Spirit came upon them (Acts 1:4-5).

What happened on the day of Pentecost was astounding. Can you imagine 8,000 Jews converting to Christ at one time? What happened? What did they hear? Whatever it was it literally turned Jerusalem upside down.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Your doctrine is basically Roman Catholicism. Are you a Catholic?

My doctrine isn't Catholic. I believe everyone is saved by believing that God will freely forgive anyone who desires forgiveness of their sins. This is what Jesus demonstrated, as people spit on him and committed many other terrible sins against him.
And if people truly desire our Lord in their lives, their lives will reflect that.

Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

"Propitiation" means "appeasement." Our Father was "appeased", or "satisfied" by how his Son withheld his anger against sinners who miserably abused him. You need to understand that what mankind did to Jesus, they did to God himself. Our Saviors anger isn't going to be withheld forever.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

Heb.2:9 says by grace, Jesus tasted death for every man. In other words, by his grace, he didn't exact justice from those who brutally mistreated him, even to death.
He's simply saying, his long suffering is for all mankind.

Repentance is not going to save you.

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:3

repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:47

God.....commandeth all men every where to repent: Act.17:30

"Christianity" teaches God was happy at the abuse inflicted on his Son.
The truth is, God was happy at how his Son loved the unlovable.

 

[Robert Pate]

My doctrine isn't Catholic. I believe everyone is saved by believing that God will freely forgive anyone who desires forgiveness of their sins. This is what Jesus demonstrated, as people spit on him and committed many other terrible sins against him.
And if people truly desire our Lord in their lives, their lives will reflect that.

"Propitiation" means "appeasement." Our Father was "appeased", or "satisfied" by how his Son withheld his anger against sinners who miserably abused him. You need to understand that what mankind did to Jesus, they did to God himself. Our Saviors anger isn't going to be withheld forever.

Heb.2:9 says by grace, Jesus tasted death for every man. In other words, by his grace, he didn't exact justice from those who brutally mistreated him, even to death.
He's simply saying, his long suffering is for all mankind.

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:3

repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:47

God.....commandeth all men every where to repent: Act.17:30

"Christianity" teaches God was happy at the abuse inflicted on his Son.
The truth is, God was happy at how his Son loved the unlovable.

The only ones that are going to be saved are those that believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins and in doing so has reconciled them and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

 

[Mungo]

What happened on the day of Pentecost was astounding. Can you imagine 8,000 Jews converting to Christ at one time? What happened? What did they hear? Whatever it was it literally turned Jerusalem upside down.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with your claims.