Jesus: Our Substitute and Representative

[Robert Pate]

Yes, but that has nothing to do with your claims.

It has everything to do with it. On the day of Pentecost the Gospel came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit. When they heard the Gospel and believed the Gospel 8,000 Jews were converted to Christ. Paul said, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

 

[Mungo]

It has everything to do with it. On the day of Pentecost the Gospel came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit. When they heard the Gospel and believed the Gospel 8,000 Jews were converted to Christ. Paul said, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

Faith comes by hearing. But we are not saved just by hearing and believing alone.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
You should believe Jesus.

 

[Robert Pate]

Faith comes by hearing. But we are not saved just by hearing and believing alone.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
You should believe Jesus.

You feel that you must do something to be saved. You are not able to trust in Christ alone, because you don't really trust him. Nor are you able to cease from your own works and enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

 

[Mungo]

You feel that you must do something to be saved. You are not able to trust in Christ alone, because you don't really trust him. Nor are you able to cease from your own works and enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

We have to do what Jesus instructed us to do - believe and be baptised.
Of course I trust Jesus. I believe what he said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
Why don't you believe Jesus?

 

[Robert Pate]

We have to do what Jesus instructed us to do - believe and be baptised.
Of course I trust Jesus. I believe what he said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
Why don't you believe Jesus?

You believe in the Jesus of the Catholic church, which demands that you do works to be saved.

I believe in the Jesus that saved the thief on the cross who did nothing but believe.

 

[Mungo]

You believe in the Jesus of the Catholic church, which demands that you do works to be saved.

I believe in the Jesus of the Bible who said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", not the bible of Pateism which leaves out part of what Jesus said.

I believe in the Jesus that saved the thief on the cross who did nothing but believe.

That was before Jesus died and rose again, before he instructed us to be baptised to receive salvation.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The only ones that are going to be saved are those that believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins and in doing so has reconciled them and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

No my friend. People who believe that Jesus turned his anger away (propitiated) from people who sinned personally against him and desire forgiveness for having sinned against him, are reconciled, or "changed" to a right relationship with him.
You're doing the same thing I did. I ignored the truth of all scripture, because I was indoctrinated with false teaching. Here's an example,

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Rom.5:10

A) Even when people are enemies, they're reconciled to God.

B) We were reconciled to God because Jesus didn't unleash his wrath on us when we argued with him about the scriptures, mocked him, plotted against him, spit on him, hello?

I've commented directly on every verse you've posted. You ignored my last post completely. All you have to do, is realize the Father allowed sinful conduct against his Son.....and our Father doesn't condone sinful conduct against his Son.

 

[Robert Pate]

I believe in the Jesus of the Bible who said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", not the bible of Pateism which leaves out part of what Jesus said.



That was before Jesus died and rose again, before he instructed us to be baptised to receive salvation.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith, even in the Old Testament, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he would have something to glory about, but not before God. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that does works is the reward not reckoned of Grace, but of debt. But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:2-5.

This should be the end of the debate. Religion is not an indication of faith, religion is an indication of the absence of faith.

 

[Robert Pate]

No my friend. People who believe that Jesus turned his anger away (propitiated) from people who sinned personally against him and desire forgiveness for having sinned against him, are reconciled, or "changed" to a right relationship with him.
You're doing the same thing I did. I ignored the truth of all scripture, because I was indoctrinated with false teaching. Here's an example,

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Rom.5:10

A) Even when people are enemies, they're reconciled to God.

B) We were reconciled to God because Jesus didn't unleash his wrath on us when we argued with him about the scriptures, mocked him, plotted against him, spit on him, hello?

I've commented directly on every verse you've posted. You ignored my last post completely. All you have to do, is realize the Father allowed sinful conduct against his Son.....and our Father doesn't condone sinful conduct against his Son.

The whole world has been reconciled to God. But no one will be reconciled that does not receive the reconciliation that has been provided for us by Jesus Christ. This is why Paul said, "Be reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20. To be reconciled one must trust in Christ and his Gospel.

 

[Mungo]

Salvation has always been by grace through faith, even in the Old Testament, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he would have something to glory about, but not before God. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that does works is the reward not reckoned of Grace, but of debt. But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:2-5.

This should be the end of the debate. Religion is not an indication of faith, religion is an indication of the absence of faith.

You are still failing to recognise that faith is as much a work as baptism.
So if Abraham was not justified by his works then he wasn't justified by faith.
If Abraham was not justified by his works but was justified by his faith then faith is not a work.
If faith is not a work then baptism is not a work.

Actually you problem lies with your false understanding of what is a work.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The whole world has been reconciled to God. But no one will be reconciled that does not receive the reconciliation that has been provided for us by Jesus Christ. This is why Paul said, "Be reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20. To be reconciled one must trust in Christ and his Gospel.

We are reconciled to God when we confess the sins we've committed against him and ask forgiveness. Do you see that Jesus was greatly sinned against?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

My friend,
I wanted to say, Paul told people to be reconciled, because they weren't already.
When people humble themselves before the Lord, it's the beginning of coming to know him, of becomming one with him.

This is why Paul said,

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2Cor.5:21

So in light of being "reconciled" to God, we can expect to be lied about and persecuted for our faith in Christ, because that's what happened to the Shepherd we follow.
It's really amazing how Paul shows us Christ in the next chapter. Read what happened to them. We need personal insight.

 

[Robert Pate]

You are still failing to recognise that faith is as much a work as baptism.
So if Abraham was not justified by his works then he wasn't justified by faith.
If Abraham was not justified by his works but was justified by his faith then faith is not a work.
If faith is not a work then baptism is not a work.

Actually you problem lies with your false understanding of what is a work.

Faith is not a work. Faith is a natural human attribute that we are all born with. The question is what is the object of your faith? The object of your faith is the Catholic church. The object of my faith is Christ and his Gospel.

 

[Robert Pate]

My friend,
I wanted to say, Paul told people to be reconciled, because they weren't already.
When people humble themselves before the Lord, it's the beginning of coming to know him, of becomming one with him.

This is why Paul said,

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2Cor.5:21

So in light of being "reconciled" to God, we can expect to be lied about and persecuted for our faith in Christ, because that's what happened to the Shepherd we follow.
It's really amazing how Paul shows us Christ in the next chapter. Read what happened to them. We need personal insight.

Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

 

[Mungo]

Faith is not a work. Faith is a natural human attribute that we are all born with. The question is what is the object of your faith? The object of your faith is the Catholic church. The object of my faith is Christ and his Gospel.

Faith is a work - mental work.

Actually your problem lies with your false understanding of what is a work.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

To reconcile two different people, understanding and agreement must be achieved.

Do you agree that Jesus was sinned against?

 

[Robert Pate]

To reconcile two different people, understanding and agreement must be achieved.

Do you agree that Jesus was sinned against?

Jesus was murdered by the Pharisees. We receive reconciliation by faith in Christ and his Gospel. Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God, sinners and all, but nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

 

[Robert Pate]

Faith is a work - mental work.

Actually your problem lies with your false understanding of what is a work.

Naaa, we are not saved by works, we are saved by the doing and dying of Jesus.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus was murdered by the Pharisees.

And the only thing that pleased our Father is how our Lord Jesus responded to that sickening sin being committed against him.
Any other man in that position, would have destroyed them long before the nails got pounded in, but that's the long suffering of God,

he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. Psa.78:38

Father and Son are one.

 

[Iconoclast]

We have to do what Jesus instructed us to do - believe and be baptised.
Of course I trust Jesus. I believe what he said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
Why don't you believe Jesus?

Do babies believe and be baptized in the RC. church? or do the make-believe 'GOD PARENTS" renounce Satan for them??? Mungo...think it out. You just said we must believe and be baptized. That is what I now believe as a baptist. Be consistent.