Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[FreeGrace]

I guess I'm just one of those that understands the teaching of our Lord. I have full security in Christ alone.

And that isn't the issue. Why should anyone even think that one who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit can perish??

It really seems like you derive your security from a prayer you said, or going down front in a service, or maybe a time at an evangelistic outreach?

[edited] My security is directly in the PROMISE of Jesus. He alone provides salvation and promises recipients of eternal life will never perish.

So, why should anyone believe that any recipient of etenral life could perish??

Do you base your security in the fact you "believed" one time in your past?

My security is based solely on the promise of Jeus. John 10:28

If not, do you base it on your continual faith in Christ?

I absolutely NEVER base my salvation on ANYTHING I might do. Since I have already believed, I have already been given eternal life. Therefore, I will NEVER PERISH because Jesus SAID SO.

So again, why should anyone think that a saved person, one who has been given eernal life, could ever perish, for any reason?

There are no reasons why.

 

[FreeGrace]

So you disagree with this scripture:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

JLB

[edited]

I never said I disagree with any Scripture. Not even Rom 2:6-8. Are my posts even being read? It sure seems not.

I agree with Paul that it would take "continuance of doing good" in order to inherit eternal life. I also agree with Paul that no human is capable of doing so.

What I don't understand is why any Christian would push Rom 2:6-8 as a viable way to receive eternal life.

Such a claim renders the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins unnecessary and irrelevant. Apparently you're not seeing this.

You've been unwilling to explain what you think "continuance of doing good" means, so why even have this discussion? It's just one-sided.

Only after providing an explanation of what that phrase means will I engage in this passage again.

 

[FreeGrace]

Did Judas continually do evil?

He heard His voice and followed Him for 3 years, and became an apostle, then became a traitor, though he was destined to reign and rule with Christ and the other apostles.

Please substantiate this statement from Scripture; about Juda being "destined to reign and rule with Christ". I don't believe it.

In fact, Scripture indicates he was destined to betray Christ. A far different thing that you're claiming.
John 6:64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
John 6:71 - (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16

See verses above.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Because Jesus said they will never perish. John 10:28"

Sorry, John 10:28 doesn't say this.

He actually did. Your claim is a stunning error.

John 10:28 is a continuation of John 10:27.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

v.27 is a general description of His sheep. Not a requirement to be His sheep. The words are quite clear.

v.28 is a statement of FACT; Jesus gives His sheep (them) eternal life. And His sheep (they) will never perish.

Those who are interested in HOW to become one of His sheep, and therefore, never perish, is found in 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

What was Jesus saying about how to be saved?

Furthermore, it is when Jesus "gives them" eternal life, that they will never perish.

I've been making that point all along. Which Jesus told us back in 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Do you believe these words of Jesus?

That will be at the resurrection, when they receive immortality, and a body that will never die.

I see. Thanks for your answer.

But I will continue to stay with what Jesus said in 5:24 about WHEN one receives eternal life.

If a person "has" the Spirit of Christ in them, then they have eternal life in them, because then are one Spirit with Him, and joined to Him.

This is in direct conflict with your statement above. We know from Eph 1:13 and Gal 3:2,5 WHEN one "has" the Spirit of Christ in them; which is WHEN they believe, which agrees completely with Jesus' words in John 5:24 regarding WHEN one "has" eternal life.

Yet, above, your claim is that eternal life is at the resurrection, which would mean NO ONE has it now during this life.

Which is directly AGAINST what Jesus and Paul said about it.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

True, and refutes your claim above.

A person becomes "joined" to the Lord, receiving the life from Him, when they "believe".

There is no need to use quote marks. And this statement contradicts your statement above.

Later if they who are joined to Him, do not continue to remain in Him, then they no longer have the eternal life in them they once had when they were joined to Him.

How come no one EVER provides any Scripture when this claim is made to support the claim?

There is NO REASON to believe such a claim without Scriptural support.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:8

• In Him = Eternal life
• Separated from Him = cast into the fire and burned

All who have believed are IN HIM, per Eph 1:13. All who have never believed are separated from Him, which is also called "spiritual death".

However, John 15 isn't about any of this. It's about fellowship for the purpose of producing fruit.
John 15:4 - Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

John 15:5 - “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

JOHN 15:8 - This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

As long as we remain in Him, we are joined to eternal life.

Please provide Scriptural support for this claim. I don't believe any verse supports this claim.

It is possible to become removed from Him, after we are in Him.

Then what Paul wrote in Eph 1:14 cannot be true, and is therefore, false. That is stunning.

Eph 1:14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

So, the Holy Spirit is a deposit, GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE. For when? UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. For whom? THOSE WHO ARE GOD'S POSSESSION.

Clear as day. When God guarantees something, it is final. God keeps His word. The sealing with the Holy Spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance. That's eternal security.

Our inheritance is guaranteed until the day of redemption. Another statement about eternal security.

Why? Because those who have believed are God's possession. Again, eternal security.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

This is about fruit production from being in fellowship, not loss of salvation.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4 NASB

This is also about fellowship because of the Galatian believers trying to be justified by keeping the law.

One thing is sure; the verse says NOTHING about losing salvation. That HAS TO BE assumed. It is not stated.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you said he gives his sheep eternal life, I would agree. But when you say 'recipient', that can mean anyone. The truth is His sheep will never perish.

I've never suggested just anyone. The context is clear from v.27 that "them" and "they" in v.28 only refers to His sheep.

My point, and Jesus' point, is that His sheep are given eternal life and will never perish.

So, recipient means all of His sheep, not just the faithful ones. All of them. And Jesus told us WHEN He gives eternal life back in 5:24; when one believes, they HAVE eternal life.

So, when John 5:24 and John 10:28 are considered together, we know that the promise of never perishing applies the MOMENT one first believes. That is eternal security.

The condition is that they are his sheep and they follow him, and they know him and he knows them, and they do not follow strangers.

The condition for what, specifically? v.27 isn't about conditions for being His sheep. That was settled back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Just so there is no confusion, he is not talking about former believers who have fallen into unbelief.

Impossible. The promise is CLEAR.

If your claim here were correct, this is what Jesus WOULD HAVE said:
"I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO BELIEVE, they will never perish." Did He say that anywhere? No.

Let's just stick with what He actually said.

 

[JLB]

All who have believed are IN HIM, per Eph 1:13. All who have never believed are separated from Him, which is also called "spiritual death".

However, John 15 isn't about any of this. It's about fellowship for the purpose of producing fruit.
John 15:4 - Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

John 15:5 - “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

JOHN 15:8 - This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

I see, so in your theory, a branch that is connected to a vine, is in "fellowship" with the vine, not a life sustaining relationship, with the vine, whereby the branch is depending on the vine for it's life.

• Do you believe a branch that has become disconnected from the vine, still has the same life flowing into it, when it was connected to the vine?

Jesus says that if the branch that becomes severed from the vine, will wither, and is cast into the fired and burned.

• Do you believe a branch that is cast into the fire and burned, still has the Life it once had from the Vine?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6



JLB

 

[JLB]

As I said JLB....you've condemned yourself with your "salvation" rules.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Do you believe these words?

Do you believe people who are led by the Spirit of God, are led to do evil or good?


For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Do you believe these words?

I don't believe your spin. I don't believe your OUT OF CONTEXT interpretation assigned to it.
...In fact this verse was discussed. Even posted a link to several commentaries....and you insist to present your spin?

As I said, and have defended....if your salvation depends on you...you've already lost it.

 

[FreeGrace]

I see, so in your theory, a branch that is connected to a vine, is in "fellowship" with the vine, not a life sustaining relationship, with the vine, whereby the branch is depending on the vine for it's life.

No, my point is still being missed. Jesus used these figures of speech to teach about the ONLY WAY to produce fruit among saved people.

Salvation is NOT in view here, as Jesus made very clear that they were already saved.
John 15:3 - You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

iow, they were already saved. So Jesus' point was HOW TO PRODUCE FRUIT, as a saved person.

John 15:2 - He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesso that it will be even more fruitful.

If this verse was about losing salvation, then the Bible teaches that salvation is maintained by our works. How can anyone who claims faith in Jesus Christ for salvation think that they must produce fruit in order to not lose salvation?

Jesus said that His sheep, being recipients of eteranl life, will never perish, in John 10:28. If John 15 was about how salvation can be lost, then Jesus contradicted Himself in John 10:28.

I will never believe that He contradicted Himself.

I will continue to believe that all those He gives eternal life will never perish. Which means salvation cannot be lost.

• Do you believe a branch that has become disconnected from the vine, still has the same life flowing into it, when it was connected to the vine?

Jesus says that if the branch that becomes severed from the vine, will wither, and is cast into the fired and burned.

• Do you believe a branch that is cast into the fire and burned, still has the Life it once had from the Vine?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6



JLB[/QUOTE]

 

[Nathan]

I absolutely NEVER base my salvation on ANYTHING I might do. Since I have already believed, I have already been given eternal life. Therefore, I will NEVER PERISH because Jesus SAID SO.

I think you might not see what you posted clearly?

You said you don't base your salvation on anything you might do, but then follow it up with basing it on the fact you believed.

That would be basing salvation/eternal life on something you did.

Jesus said a lot of other things also, why not believe them too?

 

[Cygnus]

If this verse was about losing salvation, then the Bible teaches that salvation is maintained by our works. How can anyone who claims faith in Jesus Christ for salvation think that they must produce fruit in order to not lose salvation?

Quite an interesting point. The OSNAS sect works to keep their butt saved...the OSAS works for the glory of God.

Both do "good" works but the motivations are different.

 

[Cygnus]

Another interesting point....the OSNAS sect is saved...and being saved can't lose their salvation.

 

[JLB]

No, my point is still being missed. Jesus used these figures of speech to teach about the ONLY WAY to produce fruit among saved people.

If you expect me to answer your questions, then you will need to answer mine, and since you have side-stepped the last question I asked you, I am going to ask that you actually answer the simple question I asked, which comes from John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Jesus says that the branch that becomes severed from the vine, will wither, and is cast into the fired and burned.

• Do you believe a branch that is cast into the fire and burned, still has the Life it once had from the Vine?

JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't believe your spin. I don't believe your OUT OF CONTEXT interpretation assigned to it.
...In fact this verse was discussed. Even posted a link to several commentaries....and you insist to present your spin?

As I said, and have defended....if your salvation depends on you...you've already lost it.

There is no explanation, there is no commentary, there is no spin.

There is only a question: Do you believe these words?

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

JLB

 

[JLB]

Let's just stick with what He actually said.

Here is what He actually said: all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


Jesus said: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.

Do you believe these words?


Do you believe being led by the Spirit is being led to do good, or to do evil?

• For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14

JLB

 

[Cygnus]

There is no explanation, there is no commentary, there is no spin.

There is only a question: Do you believe these words?

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

JLB

As i said before.....I'm not buying your misrepresentation of that verse.

It is considered as bad hermenuitics to pluck a verse out of context. Until you are willing to look at the whole thought...I can't even begin to discuss this series of verses with you.

 

[Cygnus]

Here is what He actually said: all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


Jesus said: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.

Do you believe these words?


Do you believe being led by the Spirit is being led to do good, or to do evil?

• For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14

JLB

What is good? Is it good for you to do good to save your butt from hell? Doesn't that seem somewhat self serving?

So, once again do we believe those words....the answer is yes. What we deny is your spin.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you might not see what you posted clearly?

How would that be possible? Is this a suggestion that I don't know what I post??

You said you don't base your salvation on anything you might do, but then follow it up with basing it on the fact you believed.

I am quite sure I've already explained all that to those who read my posts.

Jesus said a lot of other things also, why not believe them too?

I sure do believe everything else he said. But what He NEVER DID was contradict Himself.

So, when He taught that one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes (Jn 5:24), and He's the One who gives eternal life (Jn 10:28), and follows that up with "and they will never perish", I certainly believe in eternal security from the MOMENT one believes in Him and receives eternal life.

What I will never believe is the contrary view of some that some recipients of eternal life can perish. He never said that.

He clearly indicated that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

Quite an interesting point. The OSNAS sect works to keep their butt saved...the OSAS works for the glory of God.

Both do "good" works but the motivations are different.

Yes, sir!

 

[FreeGrace]

Another interesting point....the OSNAS sect is saved...and being saved can't lose their salvation.

I wish they knew this.