Jesus supports Gay rights

[D46]

Where is your evidence for this claim? You talk as if it has been established as "factual" that homosexuality is a "choice". I doubt that you will find support for your position in the Scriptures.

In the first book of the bible...

Ge 2:21-23 (KJV) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Adam and Eve, dear hearts-not Adam and Steve...nor Mary and Sherry for that matter. Satan is the one that distorted and perverted God's truth, and man, being of a sinful nature, took the bait that satan had whispered in the ears of the men of Sodom and offered them an "alternate lifestyle". God states plainly it is an abomination. Does anyone think God would create and abomination? Hardly.

 

[jgredline]

In the first book of the bible...

Ge 2:21-23 (KJV) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Adam and Eve, dear hearts-not Adam and Steve...nor Mary and Sherry for that matter. Satan is the one that distorted and perverted God's truth, and man, being of a sinful nature, took the bait that satan had whispered in the ears of the men of Sodom and offered them an "alternate lifestyle". God states plainly it is an abomination. Does anyone think God would create and abomination? Hardly.

:-D thats what I said :-D

 

[Drew]

Where is your evidence for this claim? You talk as if it has been established as "factual" that homosexuality is a "choice". I doubt that you will find support for your position in the Scriptures.

In the first book of the bible...

Ge 2:21-23 (KJV) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Adam and Eve, dear hearts-not Adam and Steve...nor Mary and Sherry for that matter. Satan is the one that distorted and perverted God's truth, and man, being of a sinful nature, took the bait that satan had whispered in the ears of the men of Sodom and offered them an "alternate lifestyle". God states plainly it is an abomination. Does anyone think God would create and abomination? Hardly.

This is not really a convincing argument. I have not questioned whether homosexual activity is sinful - just whether a homosexual inclination is a choice. Your statement above does not directly address the matter of choice. So I will ask. How does the Genesis 2 text deny that people can be born with homosexual tendencies?

This will be a tall order, because the text you refer to is "pre-fall" and one of the very tenets of Christianity is the notion that we are born with a sin nature as a result of that fall. Why should this not include an inclination toward homosexuality for some? If we are (in the post-fall world) born with a sin nature, why would some people not be born with an inclination toward this particular sin?

 

[jgredline]

Everything we do is a choice. Otherwise, where is our free will? If a person is destined to be a drunk, drug addict, homosexual, child molester, rapist, thief, murderer (and the list goes on), then God can't possibly hold ANYONE responsible for ANYTHING since it wouldn't be their fault. God DOES hold us responsible for everything we say and do and for all our choices and decisions.

Drew
To quote Jon-marc
Everything we do is a choice. Otherwise, where is our free will?

Let me know if you need scripture proofs for free will?

 

[Drew]

Drew
To quote Jon-marc
Everything we do is a choice. Otherwise, where is our free will?

Let me know if you need scripture proofs for free will?

Please read my posts carefully. I have never said that we do not have choice over what we do. I have questioned whether we have choice over our inclinations.

By the way, as one of the moderators here will testify to his irritation, you will find few more vocal supporters of the doctrine of free will than yours truly. So, jg, we do agree on something, after all .

 

[jgredline]

Drew
I know the hard core calvinist don't believe in free will. I do. That would make a good discussion. Imagine that Drew. You and I on the same side. :o
I should also mention that I am not a traditional calvinist. My friends that know me best call me a Charasmatic Calvinist, which is a nice way of calling me a penticostal calvinist :-D

 

[AHIMSA]

It is undeniable that homosexual inclinations are not chosen.

I am a homosexual, and therefore, have homosexual inclinations. Believe me, please, I did not choose these. There is a girl that I have loved for six years now, and we continue to remain the best of friends. My sexuality obviously gets in the way of that relationship becoming more (we are however, so involved in one another's lives that we have sometimes questioned whether or not we should just live together as though married).

I would not choose these inclinations...I have every reason not to. Yet here they are, and I have no choice but to deal with them. You might however, disagree with how I choose to deal with them.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Thank God! At last ...a REAL expert on this topic as opposed to the opinions of the 'wannabe's'. Thanks AHIMSA.

 

[jgredline]

It is undeniable that homosexual inclinations are not chosen.

I am a homosexual, and therefore, have homosexual inclinations. Believe me, please, I did not choose these. There is a girl that I have loved for six years now, and we continue to remain the best of friends. My sexuality obviously gets in the way of that relationship becoming more (we are however, so involved in one another's lives that we have sometimes questioned whether or not we should just live together as though married).

I would not choose these inclinations...I have every reason not to. Yet here they are, and I have no choice but to deal with them. You might however, disagree with how I choose to deal with them.

Well, I will likely get stoned or get 39 lashes for saying this, but the answer is simple. Commit your life to Jesus Christ, become born again and he will remove that stronghold from your life... I have 3 personal close friends who were homosexual and 6 Lezbians that once they were born again, left the life style and there has been no looking back for them..
The funny thing is that 4 of the women and 2 of the men thought they were Christians... Romans 7 AND 8 Changed their lives...

 

[SputnikBoy]

Please back it up with verifiable sources.

As is the case with 'splinter groups' they don't necessarily have a web-page that one can navigate to, soldier. I do, however, recall several years ago having stumbled on to a Christian forum where some very vicious people were spewing their venom toward others who were afflicted with deafnes, blindness, epilepsy, etc. Their strange and cruel notion was that such people are wearing the results of their own sins or the sins of their parents. Perhaps someone here can help me out as to where that site is or was or otherwise back me up on what I am saying.

Jesus told one of His 'miracle recipients' that his sins were forgiven. The man's sins, so believe certain Christians, were the cause of his being crippled. Likewise for any such affliction that is responsible for that person not being 'whole'. Barrenness (a woman unable to conceive) was once seen as a sin since it was the role of the female to reproduce ...to go forth and multiply. EVEN TODAY a woman unable to reproduce is either regarded with suspicion or otherwise patronized. Many human beings are not exactly the sharpest tools in the pack when it comes to 'thinking'.

So, while I can't substantiate my previous claim, soldier, surely you can see the clear potential for such a belief to occur. You might also bear in mind that 'barrenness' and this whole idea that procreation is the sole purpose of one's existence would have also given rise to the condemning of so-called 'unnatural' practices. It was the task of males to impregnate females. It was the task of females to produce off-spring. Nothing else mattered. Come to think of it, nothing much has changed. As if the world isn't crowded enough and thousands die of starvation every day, we have the desire to reproduce. As some of the above posts have indicated, they are still bound by the 'mechanics' of it all ...reproduction, go forth and multiply. That's all that matters.

We ARE talking here about an ANCIENT book even though many present-day Christians DO seem to have it strapped around their foreheads and can't seem to put one foot in front of the other without its 'okay'. As in the days of old, they don't attempt to understand the 'AHIMSA's' of this world. They don't even WANT to acknowledge a TRUTH that some people - MANY people in fact - are born with a sexual disposition toward the same gender. Totally devoid of any empathy whatever, like programmed robots, they just hurl condemning scriptures at the homosexual. The homosexual then has to contend with yet another 'affliction' ...GUILT . . . Oooh, I just LOVE Christians ...!

 

[Jon-Marc]

People have temptations, and I believe there is no sin in having them. The sin comes when we give in to those temptations. The fact of the mattter is there is NO sin that even a Christian is NOT capable of commiting. Sometimes the temptation is more than a man wants to resist.

I had a sister-in-law who was sex crazy. Her husband (my brother) wasn't any better. They were into swapping and tried to get my wife and me to swap with them. She had four children during their marriage. One belonged to her husband, two others belonged to two of my other brothers, and the fourth belonged to a black man. I have a niece who is half black. She wanted a fifth one by me, but I wasn't interested.

I was told that one day she was alone with one of my brothers who was the father of one of her kids. She walked out of the bedroom totally nude, spread out her arms and said, "You want it?" What's a man to do? Especially when he doesn't have the power of God to give him the strength to resist. He took her up on her offer.

God promises that we have an excape from temptation, but we don't always want to avail ourselves of it. Sometimes we WANT to give in to the temptation. Not even Christians are above yielding to temptation when the voice of desire yells louder than the voice of the Holy Spirit. The unsaved don't have the voice of the Holy Spirit to guide them, and His voice doesn't do a believer any good if we won't listen.

 

[AHIMSA]

jgredline

Commit your life to Jesus Christ, become born again and he will remove that stronghold from your life...

I am what I am. I have no bindings, I have no burden (at least the ones you speak of).. I don't allow myself to fall into despair over what I have never had control over to begin with. Homosexuality has not pained me. The reactions of society have, they were once my burden, my suffering, my guilt and nearly my destruction. Yet I have found freedom from it all.

Where was freedom found?... Yes in Christ, though, I suspect, not the Christ that you know. I have found Christ....not the one found in ink and paper, nor the one strangled lifeless by dogma and creed.

We could do well to keep in mind that Christ is alive.

 

[SputnikBoy]

jgredline



I am what I am. I have no bindings, I have no burden (at least the ones you speak of).. I don't allow myself to fall into despair over what I have never had control over to begin with. Homosexuality has not pained me. The reactions of society have, they were once my burden, my suffering, my guilt and nearly my destruction. Yet I have found freedom from it all.

Where was freedom found?... Yes in Christ, though, I suspect, not the Christ that you know. I have found Christ....not the one found in ink and paper, nor the one strangled lifeless by dogma and creed.

We could do well to keep in mind that Christ is alive.

I'm not sure, AHIMSA, but something deep inside is responding to the wisdom in your post. I really appreciate your words and there is a young man I know who I want to share them with.

 

[christian_soldier]

Well, folks, there you have it.

God really did leave some to a reprobate mind.

Sad.

All we can do is pray for them, 'cause we sure don't seem able to reason with them.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Well, folks, there you have it.

God really did leave some to a reprobate mind.

Sad.

All we can do is pray for them, 'cause we sure don't seem able to reason with them.

Offer me your 'divine credentials', soldier, and I'll allow you to do the judging. Meanwhile, get off of your high-horse, look in the mirror, and say as many times as necessary, "Thank you Lord that I am not a sinner like these others guys are."

 

[jgredline]

jgredline



I am what I am. I have no bindings, I have no burden (at least the ones you speak of).. I don't allow myself to fall into despair over what I have never had control over to begin with. Homosexuality has not pained me. The reactions of society have, they were once my burden, my suffering, my guilt and nearly my destruction. Yet I have found freedom from it all.

Where was freedom found?... Yes in Christ, though, I suspect, not the Christ that you know. I have found Christ....not the one found in ink and paper, nor the one strangled lifeless by dogma and creed.

We could do well to keep in mind that Christ is alive.

I appreciate your honest response.
Before I go any further, I want to make clear my position on the ''sin'' of homosexuality... There is one big misconception on the sin of homosexuality.. First it is important to look at this from Gods eyes. Your sin is no more of a sin than telling a little white lie.. It is no differant than looking at porn. It is no differant than coveting.. You see in Gods eyes sin is sin...

When it becomes dangerous is when you make peace with your sin. When you are living in sin.

The bible clearly says and I quote ''4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The Key word there is the word commit . That word in the Greek is ποιέω. it is a verb. It is a loaded word that our english language would require a paragraph to explian. Here is what the Apostle John is saying. He who lives in sin is not a child of God. In other words he who has a hibitual sin problem is not born again. He is not saying ''those who sin are not a child of God, but those who live in it. Those who try and hide their sins and do them in secret, those who plan their sins, example. A child of God would not plan a trip to the strip club after work. A child of God would not plan a robbery. This are all premeditated sins. Now if someone cuts me off in traffic and I swear under my tounge, I sinned, but it is still the carnal man in me. I commited a sin of the flesh...

Now sin does have its consequences. The sin of homosexuality does destroy familiy and homes. (read my previous post)..

Again if you have made peace with your sin, that is dangerous ground. If there is a war raging in you, then I am encouraged for the Holy Spirit is fighting the old man, the sinful nature, (read romans 8:5-11)....

 

[christian_soldier]

Offer me your 'divine credentials', soldier, and I'll allow you to do the judging. Meanwhile, get off of your high-horse, look in the mirror, and say as many times as necessary, "Thank you Lord that I am not a sinner like these others guys are."

Its not about being a sinner. Its about being unwilling to repent from and making justification for sin.

Huge difference.

 

[Oscar3]

Sputnikboy
Are you a homosexual? By your reactions and screen name it appears so.
I don't care if you are or not. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sputnikboy
Are you a homosexual? By your reactions and screen name it appears so.
I don't care if you are or not. Inquiring minds want to know.

Oscar, my screen name came about from my school days when I had a keen interest in astronomy and space travel. I also had an interest in UFOs and actually ran a weekly article on this topic in our local newspaper several years later. Anyway, at school after the launch of the Russian 'sputnik' I was given the name 'Sputnikboy' for a little while. I reinvented that name when I came to the forum. Sorry to disappoint you. My real name is Rod ...are there homosexual connotations linked to that name also ...?

No, I'm not 'gay' as far as I know but I DO have a fair knowledge about the issue of homosexuality. As much as some ...more than others. I have a degree in social science and the psychology/sociology part of the 4-year university course took me through many areas of human development, interaction, personality, temperament, etc. I, too, have an enquiring mind and what I've discovered over the years is that NOTHING is entirely black and white. That includes the Bible and much of what is contained within. Furthermore, that enquiring mind came from God.

As for my 'reactions' on this forum suggesting homosexuality ...well, when my reactions to the subject take on the hostility of your average and 'typical' Christian, then that is the time that I'll beg forgiveness from Jesus. I'm not your 'typical Christian' and I thank God for that.

I also studied 'rhetoric', by the way ...

 

[SputnikBoy]

Its not about being a sinner. Its about being unwilling to repent from and making justification for sin.

Huge difference.

NO ONE needs to repent from a predisposition that they had no part in, soldier. And they don't need to justify this in any way, shape, or form to you. it's between them and God. Savvy?