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Bible Study Jesus the Deceiver

JohnDB

JohnDB

Member
Today we were talking about Jacob. Everyone wanted to point out his sin of lying and deceiving his father Isaac.

Nobody wanted to hear how Jesus was a Deceiver...
Jeremiah claimed that God deceived him.
And considering who Jesus really was versus how He portrayed himself...He actually was a Deceiver.

Jesus deserved EVERY honor and Glory afforded to man...and instead was reviled and belittled regularly.

Jesus created the universe but yet so poor he had to borrow a gravesite...Pharoahs of Egypt were buried in Pyramids...

Jesus is the Son of God but when facing possible pardon for the trumped up charges the crowd gave the pardon to a political hack instead.

No honor, no glory, completely humble... even though He could have gotten it all (as He deserved)

God is definitely smart enough to promote his Son to some kind of prominence...but didn't...and in that was a Deceiver.
 
I would not call it deception. A prime characteristic of Christ was humility.
It seems odd only in the perception humans have of what power and authority look like. People often flaunt that sort of thing.
Christ did not have that human weakness.
 
JohnDB said:
Today we were talking about Jacob. Everyone wanted to point out his sin of lying and deceiving his father Isaac.

Nobody wanted to hear how Jesus was a Deceiver...
Jeremiah claimed that God deceived him.
And considering who Jesus really was versus how He portrayed himself...He actually was a Deceiver.

Jesus deserved EVERY honor and Glory afforded to man...and instead was reviled and belittled regularly.

Jesus created the universe but yet so poor he had to borrow a gravesite...Pharoahs of Egypt were buried in Pyramids...

Jesus is the Son of God but when facing possible pardon for the trumped up charges the crowd gave the pardon to a political hack instead.

No honor, no glory, completely humble... even though He could have gotten it all (as He deserved)

God is definitely smart enough to promote his Son to some kind of prominence...but didn't...and in that was a Deceiver.
Click to expand...
Or, by showing his true nature as a servant. Did he actually expose all who decieve? Could it be he actually uncovers and exposes our own deceptions?
 
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As Jesus is in the full glory of the Lord high and lifted up even at His birth he could never appear to man in that glory and his deceit of being a lowly man was justified in who He had to be as a servant unto man.
 
His ways are higher than our ways.

not to take it to a hippie extreme--even I recognize that Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world, not at this time--but a lot of His teachings run against the grain of the world. low status, rub people the wrong way, speak truth to power...yeah, I'm beginning to see some of what went into the "powers that be" pushing for Jesus' Crucifixion.

He valued children and women, and gave them a place at the table and a voice and a place in His Kingdom. He also spoke frequently of Hell and the need to repent, right now, for The Kingdom of God is at Hand. so...

I dunno. I think, personally, I sometimes deceive myself re: Jesus. As in..."Oh, I had AIDS, so I'm totally, 110% humbled now, I got this..." and/or "Jesus approves, I know this because this --feels-- like a Christ-like thing to do..." Jeremiah 17:9-10 most definitely applies to the latter...

anyway, I think because Truth--even a bit of truth mixed with lies, even a veneer of truth over fluff--has an appeal, lots of profiteers deliberately deceive with their own versions of "Jesus" (note the " "). To a certain extent, I think believers can deceive ourselves with our own "Jesus," or at least...I do, and the Barna studies make it seem like a significant majority of believers do, in far more fundamental ways.

:)
 
JohnDB said:
God is definitely smart enough to promote his Son to some kind of prominence...but didn't...and in that was a Deceiver.
Click to expand...

John,

Please provide biblical evidence to support your claim.

Oz
 
Jesus was only a deceiver in the eyes of the high priest and elders in the temple as they were waiting for a priestly king from the tribe of Levi and would hold to their teachings of the law. What they saw was a lowly man that would not tell them what and where His authority came from, Matthew 21:23-27.

Jesus became a stumbling block and many were confounded by Him as they did not know who He was as a high priest come to them, 1 Peter 2:4-8.

The law of Moses says that only the male descendants of the tribe of Levi be commissioned to serve as Jewish priest before the God of Israel and the Jewish nation Numbers 8; Exodus 29:9-30; Leviticus 8:12; 16:32.

The high priest and elders deemed Jesus not eligible to be a priest because He was from the tribe of Judah and that He was making changes to the law. This is why they asked Him by what authority and who gave Him the authority to teach the things He taught in the temple, Matthew 21:23-27; Hebrews chapter 7. They went as far as accusing Jesus of blasphemy and a mere man claiming to be God because He forgave others of their sin as this was deceit in their eyes and a stumbling block to others, Luke 5:21.

What Jesus taught was considered deceit and caused a stumbling block before the high priest and elders as the new and better covenant He taught came against the covenant the Levitical priesthood is under. It was after the order of Melchizedek that Jesus would come from, meaning after the same righteousness that was found in Melchizedek, which is the righteousness of God.
 
Jeremiah 20:7
Very famous verse...
It is provacative.
But it is accurate.
Jesus, the Agent of Creation (John 1:3 Colosians 1:16) is due more honor than Caesar, Pilate, or the High Priest that condemned him.
It is his seat (Mercy Seat) on the Ark of the Covenant covered by the Cherabim in the Holy of Holies that the High Priest could only enter once a year...those improperly doing it were drug out (because they were dead)by the rope attached to their ankle.

Yet, Jesus claimed to have no place to rest his head. (Matthew 8:19-20)
[Although the Ark of the Covenant was probably lost during the Babylonian occupation; at least confiscated and probably looted during the Persian occupation)

I'm not claiming that Jesus lied...but His outward appearance was very deceptive considering His true place in society...worthy of more honor and Glory than Caesar at a minimum...
 
I understand what your saying John. But as you know, calling Jesus a deciever just doesnt sit well and can be misunderstood. I know you are saying that God could have called 10,000 Angel's, but he didnt and you want to bring out his Power and might that is rightly deserved. We should never underestimate our Lord.

2 Corinthians 11:14 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Satan is a deciever and the light, that is simply to say the truth exposes his deception.

We understand that in Chist dwells all truth for He is the light of the world whome created this world and the whole universe.

Jesus gives us an example of his true nature when he washed his diciples feet and taught us to do the same. There is no deception in that act, nor was there deception when he hung on the cross.

The question for me really is this. What is Gods very nature and when I look at the life of Jesus knowing He is the radiant glory of God, why did He come?
 
StoveBolts said:
I understand what your saying John. But as you know, calling Jesus a deciever just doesnt sit well and can be misunderstood. I know you are saying that God could have called 10,000 Angel's, but he didnt and you want to bring out his Power and might that is rightly deserved. We should never underestimate our Lord.

2 Corinthians 11:14 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Satan is a deciever and the light, that is simply to say the truth exposes his deception.

We understand that in Chist dwells all truth for He is the light of the world whome created this world and the whole universe.

Jesus gives us an example of his true nature when he washed his diciples feet and taught us to do the same. There is no deception in that act, nor was there deception when he hung on the cross.

The question for me really is this. What is Gods very nature and when I look at the life of Jesus knowing He is the radiant glory of God, why did He come?
Click to expand...

I'm not in any way saying that Jesus did anything wrong whatsoever. He regularly understated and over delivered. (The exact opposite of a con-man)

But like that television show Undercover Boss...He deceived.
 
I have avoided posing beyond my warning because the very construction of the title screams heresy. I realize, having on finished 8 years of schooling that I am a poor Word Smith, as are many of us but the addition of a simple is or was to the title avoids the appearance of https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Blu...d=1544280577&sr=1-103&keywords=headphonesevil. There would, perhaps, be a lessor number that would open the string, perhaps, but that would be because ofhttps://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Bluetooth-Headphones-Prolonged-Zihnic/dp/B07K516XPS/ref=sr_1_103?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Bluetooth-Headphones-Prolonged-Zihnic/dp/B07K516XPS/ref=sr_1_103?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544280577&sr=1-103&keywords=headphonesqid=1544280577&sr=1-103&keywords=headphones the loss of shock value. The truth is that we are not Radio nor TV Shock Jocks though. Without the 2 or three letter opener, the title of the thread is repulsive.

I'll back off again.
 
JohnDB said:
I'm not in any way saying that Jesus did anything wrong whatsoever. He regularly understated and over delivered. (The exact opposite of a con-man)

But like that television show Undercover Boss...He deceived.
Click to expand...
I'm going to push back lightly on this just because the word decieved conjures the idea of evil.

I have watched undercover boss many times and I love that show. And from that perspective I understand what your saying. But to say Jesus was a deciever still rubs me the wrong way. Here's why.

Under cover boss intentionally hid his identity. While Jesus never shouted with a microphone with a big spotlights and jazzy music that he was God while tap dancing, he certainly didnt deny it or he let folks decide for themselves in many cases.

The way I understand things, I prefer to say that God exposed his very nature to us.

How do you understand 1 Peter 2:22 ESV

He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
 
StoveBolts said:
We understand that in Chist dwells all truth for He is the light of the world whome created this world and the whole universe.
Click to expand...



Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


If Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life; then how do some hold truth in unrighteousness? What is the difference between holding the truth in unrighteousnees versus holding the truth in righteousness. How does one then come to hold the truth in righteousness?
 
StoveBolts said:
I'm going to push back lightly on this just because the word decieved conjures the idea of evil.

I have watched undercover boss many times and I love that show. And from that perspective I understand what your saying. But to say Jesus was a deciever still rubs me the wrong way. Here's why.

Under cover boss intentionally hid his identity. While Jesus never shouted with a microphone with a big spotlights and jazzy music that he was God while tap dancing, he certainly didnt deny it or he let folks decide for themselves in many cases.

The way I understand things, I prefer to say that God exposed his very nature to us.

How do you understand 1 Peter 2:22 ESV

He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
Click to expand...
Exactly what it says...no differentiation whatsoever from a flat reading of 1Peter.

Never once said or intimated that Jesus lied or deceived with words...

Just was trying to express the thought that Jesus' surface appearance was very deceptive. If anyone got beyond a very shallow perception of the man Jesus, there was a huge huge difference in the shallow knowledge of appearance.

I believe that this is important for people to understand. To go beyond that shallow understanding of Jesus...to learn more about his passion and fury of competing emotions that comes from a deep love for people. To understand the very personality of God. That shallow deception He performed was necessary (as someone above stated) to get a very clear and clean relationship with people...one not clouded by tons of fortune and fame.

In order to explain further...
One needs to understand some of the other con men in the area...the exorcist.
Now it was not difficult for the average person to understand their con. Back then medicine was in it's infancy. A fever would be a big deal. (Today we just get some drugs store over-the-counter stuff)
Neurology didn't exist. Often neurological disorders we're labeled as a person having an evil spirit or demon inhabiting them...a twisting of Mazdaism and Judaism together. But that was the targets for the exorcists... people a little slow but thinking that they were smart.
These exorcists would always need to "give" a person a special hallucinogenic potion that allowed them to see these demons...(it also happened to be very addictive) and then the patient would help the exorcist get rid of the demon. (A hefty fee was charged for this service and demons always seemed to return or other demons would come and do the same things or worse)
Jesus also claimed to be able to get rid of demons... except that Jesus charged no fees and used no potions. And people stayed cured without needing further treatments. Again... very unusual for someone claiming to be somewhat like the others. (Let's not forget that others besides the patient would hear from the demons...and they didn't get any potions either. )

All in all this scenario is deceptive but to the benefit of the patrons and not the exorcist. Just like the rest of Jesus' "deceptions" like Jeremiah talked about.
The deceptions are for others benefits and not God's. We are accustomed to the deceptive practices of greedy and selfish people...when a benevolent and truly kind God practices deceptions we, the people, come out on top.
 
There, simply, was no deception (lie) found in Yashuah. He was, and is, completely man and completely our Elohim, there is no deception there. To Deceive is to Lie in some form to promote that which was and is not true.
 
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