Jesus the Man Before John !

[Randy]

I believe that Jesus' spirit, soul, and body were all God. His human spirit was certainly Divine. It was not just God's Spirit indwelling a non-Divine man. Your belief is too close to Apollinarianism, in my judgment. Jesus was fully man and fully God both, by virtue of the "hypostatic union." The Council of Chalcedon affirmed this for the entire Church.

That's Ok. I disagree. If Jesus had a human spirit and human body what part of Him was God? It's clear to me, the Son who was, His spirit was in the body prepared for Him. His spirit descended and ascended to where He was before. AND He testified to what He saw and heard while in the Fathers presence from "His" mind. So while His spirit is not deity He was before all things so I wouldn't ever state He had a human spirit. The only Deity I read I Him with His spirit in the Fathers. They are ONE.

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hand I commit "My" spirit"?

Why would Jesus need to receive His own Spirit from the Father?
Acts 2
God has raised this Jesus to life,and we are all witnesses of it. 33Exalted to the right hand of God,he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

The Deity of the First and Last is the Fathers.

Fathers promise
In the last days I will pour out "My" Spirit

That's Spirit is sent by the Father in Jesus's name.

“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Advocate,the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

From the Will of Another at a point in History before all things and God reconciled all things to "Himself", (Singular). through Christs blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

True God from True God? I see God from true God for the source Deity of the first and last is and remains the Fathers the only true unbegotten God.

In Him not Him. It's the Fathers Deity in Him. If Jesus is true Deity that has no beginning why the need?
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Begotten of the Father before all things but not made.
I agree in apart. The Son's spirit is the Firstborn of the Father. The Deity gifted to dwell in Him, the Father, is unbegotten.

About the Son - Why the need?
When God brings the Firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him.

Jesus's God is our God. Jesus's Father is our Father.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies. (He lives forever by the Fathers Deity in Him just as we live forever by Him)
Yes, He is all that the Father is. (For in Him the fullness was pleased to dwell) The Son has the Fathers very nature.He is the "image" of the invisible God. The radiance of "Gods" glory and the imprint of Gods very being.
No, He has always been the Son. (The Firstborn of all creation, the beginning of the creation of God) (His spirit) The Deity of the Father in Him is unbegotten.

The eternal life in the Son is the Father.
Hes not talking about life in the flesh as atheists and unbelievers live in the flesh.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.


As it was stated in the beginning.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Jesus's testimony
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jesus has made us a kingdom of priests to serve His God and Father
...and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father...

The only like to like begotten Son of the Father has a God. The Father is unbegotten and has no God and No Father.
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

 

[brightfame52]

RandyK

It's not possible that this is speaking of Jesus as a man "before all things."

Sure its possible, men needed a Mediator at Creation. You dont believe Adam and Eve had a Mediator ? Where did Adam get his shape and form from as a Man ?

 

[brightfame52]

I agree, but the son of man was the Word before He descended to the earth.

No he was the Son of Man and the Word ! He plainly said He was in heaven before his incarnation Jn 6:62


What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? Just like He was God Man on Earth, likewise in Heaven

 

[Hopeful 2]

No he was the Son of Man and the Word ! He plainly said He was in heaven before his incarnation Jn 6:62

He was in heaven, as the Word.

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? Just like He was God Man on Earth, likewise in Heaven

The Word had not taken on flesh until He had been born of a woman.
So there was no God-man in heaven.

 

[RandyK]

That's Ok. I disagree. If Jesus had a human spirit and human body what part of Him was God? ...

Jesus's God is our God. Jesus's Father is our Father.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies. (He lives forever by the Fathers Deity in Him just as we live forever by Him)
Yes, He is all that the Father is. (For in Him the fullness was pleased to dwell) The Son has the Fathers very nature.He is the "image" of the invisible God. The radiance of "Gods" glory and the imprint of Gods very being.
No, He has always been the Son. (The Firstborn of all creation, the beginning of the creation of God) (His spirit) The Deity of the Father in Him is unbegotten.

The eternal life in the Son is the Father.
Hes not talking about life in the flesh as atheists and unbelievers live in the flesh.

When the Disciples were offered the Eucharist, they were told to eat the bread as if Jesus' flesh. That's because Jesus' flesh was divine. But it was only symbolic because the flesh of Jesus is not a carnal salvation, but rather, a spiritual one. The point is, Jesus' entire body, soul, and spirit were divine, and we need to partake of him in order to obtain eternal life.

It doesn't matter if you fully understand it. He is the source of our salvation as he in body went to the cross, offered to God himself as a sacrifice on our behalf and for our redemption.

How can the Father be distinguished in eternity from the Son in time and space? Well, what is everywhere is also in particular places. What is infinite must be stated as such, but nevertheless can be visible in time and place.

God simply has this capacity, to stand in Eternity and express, via His Word, who He is in finite, created expressions, which is what His Son was.

So the Son existed from eternity as God's Word. But he never existed in created form as a human until God decided to express him as such in time.

 

[RandyK]

Sure its possible, men needed a Mediator at Creation. You dont believe Adam and Eve had a Mediator ? Where did Adam get his shape and form from as a Man ?

Adam and Eve were granted *hope* at the beginning, after they transgressed God's Word. This means God's Word itself was the source of hope even when it was that Word that Adam and Eve transgressed against.

The Word of God, in the beginning, was the source of the creation of Jesus' human body at the time of his conception. But Jesus, as a man, could not have preexisted his conception *as a man.* At best there were angel-like appearances, or theophanies, in the OT era that anticipated Jesus' actual conception.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Word of God,

Randy, do you see the Word as an individual who was with God and was God ?
I do.
Or do you see the Word as the spoken words of the Father ?
I don't.

 

[brightfame52]

Hopeful 2

He was in heaven, as the Word.

And Mediator !

 

[brightfame52]

RandyK

Adam and Eve were granted *hope* at the beginning

Because they had a Mediator, the Man Christ Jesus, He was at the beginning Col 1:15-18

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

1 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the

Prov 8:22-23;30-31

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 ;I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

30 ;Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2



And Mediator !

Who was the Word mediating for, before He put on the flesh and blood of a man and endured the things of men ?

 

[brightfame52]

Hopeful 2

Who was the Word mediating for

Between God and Man. Adam and Eve

before He put on the flesh and blood of a man and endured the things of men ?

That part of His Mediatorship would come later when He became incarnate as the servant Phil 2:5-8

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 ;But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I believe b4 His Incarnation Jesus looked like whet He looked like on the Mt of Transfiguration Matt 17:1-2

and after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

 

[RandyK]

Randy, do you see the Word as an individual who was with God and was God ?
I do.
Or do you see the Word as the spoken words of the Father ?
I don't.

That's a difficult question for me. I would say it's both, with the caveat that we determine, in advance, what "an individual" means. The Word of God is stocked with multiple persons--actually, an infinite number of persons as we understand "person."

And that's because God's "speech" is much more than human speech as we experience it. When God speaks He can create things, including expressions of His own Person within the finite, created world.

There is one Divine Person identifying one Deity in stasis, ie before creation. But within that one Deity there is an infinite number of expressions of God as a person within the sphere of finite, creative expressions. The Word, being God's "speech," is able to activate any number of His finite personal expressions at any time, or simply contain the potential to do so.

God can reveal Himself in the person of an angel, in the person of a human, and in the person of an alien. What matters is if God's Word is expressing the finite person created as an extension of His own infinite Being, identifying the person as containing His own infinite substance and expressing identification with His own Divine Person.

This is as opposed to creating things that may look like Him but are not to be identified as His own Divine Person. For example, human beings who were created in the image of God are not created by God's Word to present themselves as God Himself, but only agents of God at best. And they do not carry the substance of God's Being, nor represent an extension of His Deity from eternity into time.

God can speak through human prophets, but they do not identify the prophet as a representation of the Divine Person Himself. They represent Him only as spokesmen, or agents, but are not identified as God Himself.

The Word of God, representing the speech of an infinite God can express Himself as a person within the finite, created world in an infinite number of ways--not just in 3 Persons, such as the Trinity.

That's my view of it. I hope it helps, and doesn't sound like so much empty speculating. ;)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2
Between God and Man. Adam and Eve

I don't agree.
Adam and Eve didn't need a mediator, as they walked and talked with God Himself.
Jesus became man's mediator after His death and resurrection.
That was thirty some years after Jesus' birth.
Before His birth, Jesus did not exist, so could not mediate anything.

That part of His Mediatorship would come later when He became incarnate as the servant Phil 2:5-8

I agree, as Jesus had to be born of a woman in order to exist first.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's a difficult question for me. I would say it's both, with the caveat that we determine, in advance, what "an individual" means. The Word of God is stocked with multiple persons--actually, an infinite number of persons as we understand "person."

And that's because God's "speech" is much more than human speech as we experience it. When God speaks He can create things, including expressions of His own Person within the finite, created world.

There is one Divine Person identifying one Deity in stasis, ie before creation. But within that one Deity there is an infinite number of expressions of God as a person within the sphere of finite, creative expressions. The Word, being God's "speech," is able to activate any number of His finite personal expressions at any time, or simply contain the potential to do so.

God can reveal Himself in the person of an angel, in the person of a human, and in the person of an alien. What matters is if God's Word is expressing the finite person created as an extension of His own infinite Being, identifying the person as containing His own infinite substance and expressing identification with His own Divine Person.

This is as opposed to creating things that may look like Him but are not to be identified as His own Divine Person. For example, human beings who were created in the image of God are not created by God's Word to present themselves as God Himself, but only agents of God at best. And they do not carry the substance of God's Being, nor represent an extension of His Deity from eternity into time.

God can speak through human prophets, but they do not identify the prophet as a representation of the Divine Person Himself. They represent Him only as spokesmen, or agents, but are not identified as God Himself.

The Word of God, representing the speech of an infinite God can express Himself as a person within the finite, created world in an infinite number of ways--not just in 3 Persons, such as the Trinity.

That's my view of it. I hope it helps, and doesn't sound like so much empty speculating. ;)

Then we have differing beliefs.
I see the Word standing next to God, and being God, from the very beginning of everything, before the earth was even thought of.
When the Word took on flesh and bones, He became Jesus.

 

[RandyK]

Then we have differing beliefs.
I see the Word standing next to God, and being God, from the very beginning of everything, before the earth was even thought of.
When the Word took on flesh and bones, He became Jesus.

Feel free to express your views, as you see it. Putting God into our words is much more difficult than God putting Himself into His own words!

 

[brightfame52]

I don't agree.
Adam and Eve didn't need a mediator, as they walked and talked with God Himself.
Jesus became man's mediator after His death and resurrection.
That was thirty some years after Jesus' birth.
Before His birth, Jesus did not exist, so could not mediate anything.

I agree, as Jesus had to be born of a woman in order to exist first.

Thats fine you dont have to agree.

 

[Randy]

When the Disciples were offered the Eucharist, they were told to eat the bread as if Jesus' flesh. That's because Jesus' flesh was divine. But it was only symbolic because the flesh of Jesus is not a carnal salvation, but rather, a spiritual one. The point is, Jesus' entire body, soul, and spirit were divine, and we need to partake of him in order to obtain eternal life.

It doesn't matter if you fully understand it. He is the source of our salvation as he in body went to the cross, offered to God himself as a sacrifice on our behalf and for our redemption.

How can the Father be distinguished in eternity from the Son in time and space? Well, what is everywhere is also in particular places. What is infinite must be stated as such, but nevertheless can be visible in time and place.

God simply has this capacity, to stand in Eternity and express, via His Word, who He is in finite, created expressions, which is what His Son was.

So the Son existed from eternity as God's Word. But he never existed in created form as a human until God decided to express him as such in time.

I leave you to your divine flesh belief. I know Jesus's body was human. (fully human) The Son of Man.
I have no need to debate and I understand and know who my Lord is. It's very easy to understand.
"Begotten of the Father before all things but not made" I agree in part
True God "From" True God I see God from true God as the source true God remains unchanged and forever, the Father
In Him the fullness was pleased to dwell. -From the will of another at some point in time before the world began. If Jesus was Deity then why the need? In Him as opposed to being Him.
The image of the invisible God as opposed to being stated the invisible God.

Again I leave you to your belief.

Mine remains unchanged. One God the Father; One Lord Jesus Christ

 

[RandyK]

I leave you to your divine flesh belief. I know Jesus's body was human. (fully human) The Son of Man.
I have no need to debate and I understand and know who my Lord is. It's very easy to understand.
"Begotten of the Father before all things but not made" I agree in part
True God "From" True God I see God from true God as the source true God remains unchanged and forever, the Father
In Him the fullness was pleased to dwell. -From the will of another at some point in time before the world began. If Jesus was Deity then why the need? In Him as opposed to being Him.
The image of the invisible God as opposed to being stated the invisible God.

Again I leave you to your belief.

Mine remains unchanged. One God the Father; One Lord Jesus Christ

You are using modalism-type arguments. And yes, I'll leave you to your beliefs as well.

 

[Randy]

You are using modalism-type arguments. And yes, I'll leave you to your beliefs as well.

I don't accept your premise "modalism-type arguments" but we shall disagree. Jesus has always been the Son.

I didn't read anything about Jesus's flesh being divine. I read put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. Can divine flesh die?
At the resurrection we will have imperishable bodies like the resurrected Lords.

 

[RandyK]

I don't accept your premise "modalism-type arguments" but we shall disagree. Jesus has always been the Son.

I didn't read anything about Jesus's flesh being divine. I read put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. Can divine flesh die?
At the resurrection we will have imperishable bodies like the resurrected Lords.

For someone who doesn't want to speak anymore about it you sure have a lot more to say? But I don't mind.

Jesus' flesh was temporal matter. At the same time it was produced by a Divine revelation originating from the eternal God.

And so, that revelation was that Jesus was God, the Divine Son--body, soul, and spirit, regardless of how temporary the flesh of Jesus was. It was the *revelation* that made the body Divine.

The body was produced by the revelation of God and was the revelation of God. It was the body of Jesus, and that body was Jesus.

The revelation depicted Jesus as both man and Divine. And that revelation belonged to God and is trustworthy. The comparison of temporal flesh to eternal Spirit is irrelevant. It is what the revelation was saying that is relevant in this matter.