Jesus the Man Before John !

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LeviR said:
He was the Messenger of the LORD who was sent by the LORD and is the LORD?
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Yes. There is a threefold fullness being described here in the verses about this encounter between Moses and the Angel of the LORD.

The Holy Spirit is wanting us to understand Who the Angel of the LORD is.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6


The Angel of the LORD is the LORD, and is God.

God the Son, not God the Father.

God the Father is God.
God the Son is God.



And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.




JLB
 
JLB said:
No. He appeared as God the Son; the Angel of the LORD.
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In verses 10-11 does it say Man ?

Judges 13:10,11;15-23

10 And the woman[Sampsons Mother] made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.
 
Colossians points out this Manhood before Creation, Christ as Mediator and Head of His Church and Body Col 1:15-18

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 7f
 
brightfame52 said:
In verses 10-11 does it say Man ?

Judges 13:10,11;15-23

10 And the woman[Sampsons Mother] made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.
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Of course it says man.

So does Genesis 18:1-2

Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, Genesis 18:1-2


Two of the three “men” were the angels that brought destruction upon Sodom and Gomorrah.


The other was the LORD Jesus before He became flesh.
 
JLB said:
Of course it says man.

So does Genesis 18:1-2

Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, Genesis 18:1-2


Two of the three “men” were the angels that brought destruction upon Sodom and Gomorrah.


The other was the LORD Jesus before He became flesh.
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Because of the lack of evidence connecting Jesus as the Angel, it would be just as well to claim the Angel was a representative of YHWH, or from the Hebrew root meaning Deputy, or from the Latin Envoy, meaning angel.
The writer of Hebrews seems to want to reject the idea that Jesus was an angel because he implies that none of the angels God has ever said “thou are My son”, and that Jesus has been exalted above all the angels of God.
To speak as if Jesus was in fact the angel is nothing more than opinion and not fact.
 
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John 6:62

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
This scripture is indicative that Jesus existed as the Son of Man before His Incarnation in the likeness of sinful flesh

Also Jn 16:28

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
 
brightfame52 said:
John 6:62

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
This scripture is indicative that Jesus existed as the Son of Man before His Incarnation in the likeness of sinful flesh

Also Jn 16:28

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Click to expand...
We believe the person of the Son was before the world began. I would state the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body God prepared for Him. His spirit is not deity. It is the Fathers Deity that has made His home with the Son. Col 1:19 -By the will of another. One who defined the Son's being. A creation of God. Gods Firstborn. Hence the God and Father of the Son. Hebrews 1 -about that Son.

"The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."

Jesus is ALL that the Father is for in Him all the fullness of the Deity of the First and Last was pleased to dwell. He and the Father are ONE. God was the Logos. The Logos "became" flesh. The Logos has the Fathers nature in Him. That was the Son who was. One who is stated in the very FORM of God. The Word of Life. The eternal life with the Father in the beginning. That life appeared in flesh. The ONLY eyewitness of the Father that has appeared in flesh.

"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"
 
Randy said:
We believe the person of the Son was before the world began. I would state the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body God prepared for Him. His spirit is not deity. It is the Fathers Deity that has made His home with the Son.
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I believe that Jesus' spirit, soul, and body were all God. His human spirit was certainly Divine. It was not just God's Spirit indwelling a non-Divine man. Your belief is too close to Apollinarianism, in my judgment. Jesus was fully man and fully God both, by virtue of the "hypostatic union." The Council of Chalcedon affirmed this for the entire Church.
 
brightfame52 said:
John 6:62

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
This scripture is indicative that Jesus existed as the Son of Man before His Incarnation in the likeness of sinful flesh

Also Jn 16:28

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what exactly you're saying here, that Jesus existed as a *human being* before his Incarnation? If so, that's untenable.

Jesus preexisted his Incarnation, for sure, but not as a human being. He existed as the Word of God prior to his formation into a man.

The Word is distinguished from God just as our word can be distinguished from our mouth. One is the source and the other is what is emitted. Something that is emitted is separate from what issues it, even if, as in the case of God, the thing emitted is of the same Divine essence as the source of that message.

God and His Word are certainly one in terms of Divine identity. But inasmuch as the message goes out from the source of that message, the message and the source of that message can be distinguished.

In the case of God and His Word, both God and His message remain Divine. It only indicates that there must be a distinction between God in stasis and the means of His activity.

The Father, as source of all of His activity, must be identified as *before* His activity, and as such must be shown to be in stasis, or inactive. The activity that issues from Him, then, must be distinguished as non-static and active.
 
brightfame52 said:
John 6:62

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
This scripture is indicative that Jesus existed as the Son of Man before His Incarnation in the likeness of sinful flesh

Also Jn 16:28

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Click to expand...
Jesus was the Word, before coming to earth in the flesh.
 
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RandyK

I'm not sure what exactly you're saying here, that Jesus existed as a *human being* before his Incarnation? If so, that's untenable.
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He existed as the Man Mediator 1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And as the Head of His Body the Church Col 1:16-18

16;For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17;And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
 
brightfame52 said:
RandyK



He existed as the Man Mediator 1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And as the Head of His Body the Church Col 1:16-18

16;For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17;And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Click to expand...
It's not possible that this is speaking of Jesus as a man "before all things." His humanity came from when God brought into being "all things."

So Jesus, the man, originates not from a human origin, but rather, from a divine origin. We call that origin "God's Word" because it represents the distinction between God and His Word. That way God can be identified with both the Divine origin of the Son and the Divine expression of the Son in his humanity.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
Jesus came from both divine and human origins.
Without the Word taking on flesh and being born from a woman, there would be no Jesus.
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You're not making any sense. Jesus, the man, came from human origins, you say? Are you speaking of his birth from Mary, or his origin from some human being prior to the creation of the world?
 
RandyK said:
You're not making any sense. Jesus, the man, came from human origins, you say? Are you speaking of his birth from Mary, or his origin from some human being prior to the creation of the world?
Click to expand...
From Mary, of course.
Until His birth from Mary, there was no Jesus.
The Word had not yet taken on flesh and bones.
 
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