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Jesus the Man Before John !

Hopeful 2 said:
Jesus likened Himself to God, His Father.
Click to expand...

Jesus plainly said these words -

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

Jesus never mentioned His Father.

He said before Abraham was, I AM.

He was plainly saying He was I AM, which of course is saying He was before Abraham because He was God.

This is the phrase that the Angel of the LORD used when speaking to Moses.


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6


And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Exodus 3:14


The Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses.

Moses said He was afraid to look upon God.


The Angel of the Lord is the Son of God; God the Son.


Do you understand this?
 
JLB said:
Jesus plainly said these words -
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58
Jesus never mentioned His Father.
Click to expand...
Who did the Jews think said those words, initially ?
JLB said:
He said before Abraham was, I AM.
He was plainly saying He was I AM, which of course is saying He was before Abraham because He was God.
Click to expand...
Actually, Jesus was still the Word: who was with God and was God.
JLB said:
This is the phrase that the Angel of the LORD used when speaking to Moses.
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Exodus 3:14
The Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses.
Moses said He was afraid to look upon God.
The Angel of the Lord is the Son of God; God the Son.
Do you understand this?
Click to expand...
What I understand is, that you don't seem able to conceive of "the Word being with God and was God?
 
The Shepherd Man !

Zech 13:7

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

This Prophecy ensured that the coming redeemer of Gods People, His Sheep, would be a Man, its the Man Christ Jesus [which means "Yahweh saves" (or "Yahweh is salvation").]

Christ Jesus is the Man Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 , and He would be also God and Man, in fact earlier the same Prophet identifies that Man as Jehovah Himself Zech 12:10

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The piercing here is equivalent to the sword in Zech 13:7 they both belong to the Justice of God rendered in His Redemptive and substitutionary Death for the Sheep, So the Prophet knew that the Shepherd Man the fellow was God, and again that He was known to be a Divine Man by the Prophet is seen here Zech 6:12

12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

This Man shall build the Temple of the Lord ! See Matt 16:18 ! The Man Christ Jesus is responsible to build the Temple of the Lord, not a material , physical temple, but a Spiritual One made of Lively stones that He through His Spirit quickens to Life !

The same ones it is written of them this Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Its said soon after this Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

This Temple was Built by the Shepherd Man who is God Zech 6:12;13:7;12:10 ! 6
 
Hopeful 2 said:
Who did the Jews think said those words, initially ?

Actually, Jesus was still the Word: who was with God and was God.

What I understand is, that you don't seem able to conceive of "the Word being with God and was God?
Click to expand...

Please address my point from Exodus 3 where we see the phrase “I AM” mentioned.

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

Jesus never mentioned His Father.

He said before Abraham was, I AM.

He was plainly saying He was I AM, which of course is saying He was before Abraham because He was God.

This is the phrase that the Angel of the LORD used when speaking to Moses.


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6


And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Exodus 3:14


The Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses.

Moses said He was afraid to look upon God.


The Angel of the Lord is the Son of God; God the Son.
 
Who is the Man, the Angel/Messenger of the Lord here ?


Judges 13:10,11;15-23

10 And the woman[Sampsons Mother] made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.

15 And Manoah said unto the angel/messenger of the Lord[The Man of Vs 10-11], I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.

16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? This word secret is the same word wonderful in Isa 9:6 which describes Christ !

19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.

20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.

22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God[elohim]
. This is a Testimony that the Man, the Angel of the Lord they seen was God ! It was God as a Man, the Mediator, the Man Christ Jesus, I believe !

23 But his wife said unto him, If the Lord were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.

The Only One who could be God and Man at the same time is the Mediator Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 2:5 who is also God the Word Jn 1:1 !

Who is also Wonderful and the Mighty God Isa 9:6 ! 6
 
Jesus was a Man before He came down from Heaven !


Jesus was a Man before He came down from Heaven , this is a Great Mystery of our Faith, the Faith of Gods Elect, for we read in 1 Cor 15:47

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. What can be a more clearer testimony of scripture that Christ was a Man from Heaven or from above as stated also here Jn 8:23

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus is speaking in this context as the Son of Man Jn 8:28

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

So as the Son of Man He is from above Jn 8:23 !

Also we read Him say as a Man on Earth Jn 6:38

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

This is Christ as the Mediatorial Man, between God and Man 1 Tim 2:5, and this Manhood of Christ is not from Mary but from Heaven Jn 8:23, its origin is not the womb of the virgin, but its from the womb of the Morning Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
 
Who is this Angel Jacob speaks of here?

Gen 48:16
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. 6
 
brightfame52 said:
Who is this Angel Jacob speaks of here?

Gen 48:16
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. 6
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The Angel Jacob speaks of here is The Preincarnated Jesus Christ, the Angel/Messenger of the Covenant who would in the future give Himself for the sins of His People and redeem them from all sin, evil, and iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 7
 
brightfame52, can you provide even one legitimate scholar who believes Jesus was truly human before the incarnation, not including theophanies?
 
Free said:
brightfame52, can you provide even one legitimate scholar who believes Jesus was truly human before the incarnation, not including theophanies?
Click to expand...
So you want human authority instead of the scripture Im providing ? A man is a man moreso by the Spirit of a Man than being in a human body. Paul speaking of himself spoke of a Man having a experience, yet he wasn't sure if the Man was in the body or not 2 Cor 12:2-3

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)

Hence Jesus being a Man prior to the body of His incarnation isnt out of the question. Now grant it, He would need a body to be incarnate in to perform His covenant engagement of being made under the law and dying as the redeemer of His people, yet He didn't need that body in His preincarnate state as Mediator Man. And yes others believe what i believe, but Im not going to research them now because of your challenge, yet later i will refer to one or two. Why dont you research it yourself ?
 
brightfame52 said:
So you want human authority instead of the scripture Im providing ?
Click to expand...
You are providing your own authority. The only difference between you and a scholar is their level of knowledge is vastly superior.

brightfame52 said:
A man is a man moreso by the Spirit of a Man than being in a human body.
Click to expand...
I don't understand what you're saying here.

brightfame52 said:
Paul speaking of himself spoke of a Man having a experience, yet he wasn't sure if the Man was in the body or not 2 Cor 12:2-3

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
Click to expand...
Most accept that Paul is speaking of himself; he just didn't want to appear as boasting.

brightfame52 said:
Hence Jesus being a Man prior to the body of His incarnation isnt out of the question.
Click to expand...
What does this have to do with Paul's experience? Jesus was the Word of God incarnate. Nowhere in Scripture is he said to be a human being prior to that. That would actually undermine the incarnation.

brightfame52 said:
Now grant it, He would need a body to be incarnate in to perform His covenant engagement of being made under the law and dying as the redeemer of His people, yet He didn't need that body in His preincarnate state as Mediator Man. And yes others believe what i believe, but Im not going to research them now because of your challenge, yet later i will refer to one or two. Why dont you research it yourself ?
Click to expand...
Because you are the one making the claim.
 
Free said:
You are providing your own authority. The only difference between you and a scholar is their level of knowledge is vastly superior.


I don't understand what you're saying here.


Most accept that Paul is speaking of himself; he just didn't want to appear as boasting.


What does this have to do with Paul's experience? Jesus was the Word of God incarnate. Nowhere in Scripture is he said to be a human being prior to that. That would actually undermine the incarnation.


Because you are the one making the claim.
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Are saying I haven't provided scripture for my view ?
 
The Lord Jesus Christ was and is both Man and God. Now as God He is uncreated, self existing, very God of very God ! But as Man, He was the first created before creation, I believe scripture indicates this Rev 3:14

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This speaks of the Man Christ Jesus as Mediator 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This Mediatorial Manhood was not derived from mary when He was born of a virgin in time, but this Manhood as Mediator began the Creation of God for Creation. 7
 
brightfame52 said:
Who is the Man, the Angel/Messenger of the Lord here ?


Judges 13:10,11;15-23

10 And the woman[Sampsons Mother] made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.

15 And Manoah said unto the angel/messenger of the Lord[The Man of Vs 10-11], I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.

16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? This word secret is the same word wonderful in Isa 9:6 which describes Christ !

19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.

20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.

22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God[elohim]
. This is a Testimony that the Man, the Angel of the Lord they seen was God ! It was God as a Man, the Mediator, the Man Christ Jesus, I believe !

23 But his wife said unto him, If the Lord were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.

The Only One who could be God and Man at the same time is the Mediator Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 2:5 who is also God the Word Jn 1:1 !

Who is also Wonderful and the Mighty God Isa 9:6 ! 6
Click to expand...

Jesus.
 
brightfame52 said:
Well then I have nothing else to say to you, because I have used scripture for my view.
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Well, everyone here, including those you strongly disagree with, all “use Scripture for their view.” That you seem unable to produce a legitimate scholar that supports your view is very telling.

You don’t seem to realize thaf you’re completely undermining the incarnation and that ever so important claim in John 1:14–“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”
 
JLB said:
Jesus.
Click to expand...
So didn't He appear as a Man before the incarnation here ?

Judges 13:10,11;15-23

10 And the woman[Sampsons Mother] made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.
 
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