Jesus the Man Before John !

[Runningman]

Runningman

Lev 25:1 - And the LORD spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying,

The LORD then gave His laws to Moses.
This was done on Mount Sinai when it is explained in Exodus that Moses had gone to the top where the LORD had descended.
But when Moses asked to see the LORD’s glory, God had said no man can see My face and live. However, God did allow Moses to see His back as God walked away.
This is the LORD who no man has seen His face and lived.
The LORD who was seen face to face was the Angel of the LORD but not the one true God whom no mortal man can see less he die.

The image of God includes the Angel who man has seen, and the God who does not allow mortals to see His face.

These are the “us” in whom man was made in the image and likeness.

So, both Moses and Paul are correct when they say what was formed from the ground called man, is the image of God. And still the image of God when the man became a living man.

Who is the Angel then?

 

[LeviR]

Who is the Angel then?

Michael.
I believe he was the Angel of His presence. And the Angel whom Jesus is said to come in (with) the authority of the archangel.

 

[LeviR]

Do you believe the Father has a physical body like a man then?

Yes.
I’m am suggesting that the ideas of the pagan philosophers like Plato and Socrates heavily influenced the teaching of the early “church fathers”.

Jesus could not be a life giving spirit unless he himself was raised from the dead in the imprint image of God.

 

[Runningman]

Michael.
I believe he was the Angel of His presence. And the Angel whom Jesus is said to come in (with) the authority of the archangel.

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence for that, but I don't agree with it because it isn't solid enough. I don't believe Jesus literally pre-existed and he's a glorified man foreordained and predestined in God's foreknowledge.

 

[Runningman]

Yes.

Do you find any idolatry issues with that?

I’m am suggesting that the ideas of the pagan philosophers like Plato and Socrates heavily influenced the teaching of the early “church fathers”.

Agreed.

Jesus could not be a life giving spirit unless he himself was raised from the dead in the imprint image of God.

I don't see how that makes Jesus different if all of the same things that apply to him also apply to others.

 

[LeviR]

Do you find any idolatry issues with that?

Agreed.


I don't see how that makes Jesus different if all of the same things that apply to him also apply to others.

It would be very easy to say God has no body like man. But nowhere in Scripture does anyone say anything like that.
In fact, what is said in Ex 33 is that no man can see God and live.
That would not be said unless God did have a body, and to see Him (His face) would cause instant death.

 

[LeviR]

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence for that, but I don't agree with it because it isn't solid enough. I don't believe Jesus literally pre-existed and he's a glorified man foreordained and predestined in God's foreknowledge.

i didn’t say Jesus preexisted. He did not. The angel Michael existed before Jesus. I believe Michael was the angel of God’s presence.
Jesus has been given authority over all of God’s angels, even Michael. Jesus is now the Messenger or Man of God’s presence.
Where it was the angel who had carried the name of the LORD, it is now Jesus.

 

[LeviR]

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence for that, but I don't agree with it because it isn't solid enough. I don't believe Jesus literally pre-existed and he's a glorified man foreordained and predestined in God's foreknowledge.

He is the image of the invisible God. The word invisible does not mean immaterial. It means not able to be seen.

There is the story of a King who had a twin brother. The brother was a criminal and charged to be hanged. When the people saw the brother hanged, they said “The King has been hanged”.

 

[RandyK]

Again, I suggest we listen to Moses and Paul and stop rejecting them.
They say the man became a living soul. He was not given a soul he became one.
When you look at a living person, you are looking at a living soul who is made in the image and likeness of God.
God said He forbid killing a living soul because they are made in His image. To strike and kill a person is to deface the image of God.

Yes, man is a spirit who by definition is encased in a soul. We know he is a spirit because he can survive without a body, even though he is designed to live in a body. The soul was created at the moment the spirit was joined to the body, indicating that they belong together. The combo spirit-body of Man is created in the Image of God.

 

[RandyK]

i didn’t say Jesus preexisted. He did not. The angel Michael existed before Jesus. I believe Michael was the angel of God’s presence.
Jesus has been given authority over all of God’s angels, even Michael. Jesus is now the Messenger or Man of God’s presence.
Where it was the angel who had carried the name of the LORD, it is now Jesus.

What is this--a new doctrine? How do angels carry the name of the Lord and become the "angel of God's presence?" They may represent God, but I don't see them actually "carrying" God's presence. God owns His own presence, doesn't He? Why would He give it to others?

If Jesus carries God's presence it is because he *is* God!

 

[LeviR]

Yes, man is a spirit who by definition is encased in a soul. We know he is a spirit because he can survive without a body, even though he is designed to live in a body. The soul was created at the moment the spirit was joined to the body, indicating that they belong together. The combo spirit-body of Man is created in the Image of God.

Ok, so you don’t believe the text of Moses and Paul. I do.

 

[LeviR]

What is this--a new doctrine? How do angels carry the name of the Lord and become the "angel of God's presence?" They may represent God, but I don't see them actually "carrying" God's presence. God owns His own presence, doesn't He? Why would He give it to others?

If Jesus carries God's presence it is because he *is* God!

I didn’t say angels, I said Angel, singular. He carried the name of the LORD when God said “My name is in him”.
You can believe the philosophers all you want. I believe the scripture instead.

 

[RandyK]

Ok, so you don’t believe the text of Moses and Paul. I do.

What do you mean "believe in the text of Moses and Paul?" Moses' covenant is no longer in play? I believe what Moses said, as it applies to the things of God. He was a prophet and trusted spokesman for God. He was not "God's Presence," nor did he say any angel was "God's Presence."

 

[RandyK]

I didn’t say angels, I said Angel, singular. He carried the name of the LORD when God said “My name is in him”.
You can believe the philosophers all you want. I believe the scripture instead.

I didn't bring up "the philosphers"--you did! I don't know what "philosophers" you're even referring to, nor is this even relevant.

I believe there might've been a theophany when reference is made to the "Angel of His Presence." That is, it may have been God Himself.

In the Revelation, angels often took on the appearance of the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. But they were not really Christ--just pictures of him, performing his work at his will. They were not God Himself!

What do you mean, "carry the name of the Lord?" You have yet to explain that?

Heb 1. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

 

[LeviR]

What do you mean "believe in the text of Moses and Paul?" Moses' covenant is no longer in play? I believe what Moses said, as it applies to the things of God. He was a prophet and trusted spokesman for God. He was not "God's Presence," nor did he say any angel was "God's Presence."

Moses referred to the Angel who appeared to him as both LORD and God. The Angel was therefore the presence of God who was seen. The true God no mortal man has ever seen and lived.

 

[LeviR]

I didn't bring up "the philosphers"--you did! I don't know what "philosophers" you're even referring to, nor is this even relevant.

I believe there might've been a theophany when reference is made to the "Angel of His Presence." That is, it may have been God Himself.

In the Revelation, angels often took on the appearance of the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. But they were not really Christ--just pictures of him, performing his work at his will. They were not God Himself!

People bring their own philosophy into the Scripture. Things they learned from other philosophers. They find a few text and use them as “proof” to teach what they think.
There is no text that says God does not have a body. But many that do.
The philosophers bring their philosophy with them and say “Spirt” as it refers to God’s nature and that of angels means “immaterial”.
Spirit, when it refers to God’s nature, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of those raised when he returns is Spirit body.
A spiritual body is a body that never dies. It is a body like God and Jesus and the angels who all never die.

 

[LeviR]

RandyK

A main reason people reject what the Bible says about God and angels having a body is because they believe demons are angels.
There is no text that says demons are angels. And neither is there any text that says Satan is an angel.
It’s all made up bs.

 

[RandyK]

Moses referred to the Angel who appeared to him as both LORD and God. The Angel was therefore the presence of God who was seen. The true God no mortal man has ever seen and lived.

So this "angel" is not really an angel as we understand the term otherwise? This Angel is really God Himself appearing in the form of an angel, just as he would assume the form of a man.

This is called a "theophany." If so, this "angel" was not really an angel, but only the appearance of an angel. He was actually God Himself, and I believe that is what Moses was indicating. And I do believe Moses, and not "the philosophers."

 

[LeviR]

So this "angel" is not really an angel as we understand the term otherwise? This Angel is really God Himself appearing in the form of an angel, just as he would assume the form of a man.

This is called a "theophany." If so, this "angel" was not really an angel, but only the appearance of an angel. He was actually God Himself, and I believe that is what Moses was indicating. And I do believe Moses, and not "the philosophers."

if you believed Moses and Paul you would know that man was formed from the ground and is called man before he became a living man.

 

[RandyK]

RandyK

A main reason people reject what the Bible says about God and angels having a body is because they believe demons are angels.
There is no text that says demons are angels. And neither is there any text that says Satan is an angel.
It’s all made up bs.

This is non sequitur reasoning. People can believe "demons are angels" and still accept what the Bible says about God and angels!

You're talking about various interpretations held by people, all of whom believe the Bible! And so, you wish to tar all those who do not agree with your interpretation as "unbelievers."

This isn't a respectable way of disagreeing with your brothers and sisters in Christ. Some may be unbelievers, but not all who disagree with your interpretationare unbelievers! I, for one, am not an unbeliever!

I happen to think, as an opinion, that the Bible views demons as fallen angels. Do I have enough evidence to declare this as a doctrine? Perhaps not. Perhaps. It's just a view, brother!

I don't know what your intention is to claim that God and angels "have a body." A body suggests something created, and God is uncreated--He is the Creator of "bodies."

So if God is said to be "spirit," which He is, then all it is saying is that He is distinct from created bodies--not that His Person has no formulation. His "formulation" is indicated by His Word, which is infinite. We cannot define any so-called "body," or formulation, for God!