Bible Study Job - Book of Declaration and Transformation

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This is the break point in Job's answer. The first 13 verses are the truth about the wicked.
Verse 14starts on Job himself (declared righteous by God).

Now job will reveal what happens to God's children / family.

Then a summation.

Job 21:15 KJV
What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?
16 Lo, their good is not in their hand: the counsel of the wicked is far from me.
17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.
18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.
19 God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it.
20 His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
21 For what pleasure hath he in his house after him, when the number of his months is cut off in the midst?
22 Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.
23 One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet.
24 His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.
25 And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure.
26 They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.
28 For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?
29 Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,
30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
33 The clods of the valley shall be sweet unto him, and every man shall draw after him, as there are innumerable before him.
34 How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?

After a time I hope to go through this verse by verse.

Job helps answer a lot of NT / NC questions.

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And notice:

We are in chapter 21, and are looking at Job's answer for a chapter we haven't gone over yet (20). The purpose, hopefully, is to get truth first and then look at the error.

If we read / study error first, we may be confused. The friends do not speak truth, according to the end chapters of Job,

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In the final analysis Job saw himself accurately:

Job 42:
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

No amount of legalism or good performances by Job, previously applied, could buy Job's way out of the trouble, the evil that GOD brought upon Job.

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 42:
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

It is a seat that Abraham knew as well.

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

We may not care to hear of it, but it is a fact of scripture, and of reality as well. They are hard lessons. There are exceptionally legitimate reasons to FEAR the Lord. Not just "lip service" fear.

 

[Runner]

We may not care to hear of it, but it is a fact of scripture, and of reality as well. They are hard lessons. There are exceptionally legitimate reasons to FEAR the Lord. Not just "lip service" fear.

I really don't think fear is the message of Job. Job had no reason to fear the Lord, unless we read the book literally and believe God arbitrarily allows Satan to wreak havoc on righteous men. That interpretation is precisely why many atheists say "The God of Christianity is a monster unworthy of worship." Job happens to be my favorite book in the OT, but I believe it is essentially a parable leading to the real message at the conclusion: The God we worship is a mysterious, transcendent figure, and there will be times when all we can do is accept the mystery and keep on trusting. All attempts to explain what has occurred (as with Job's friends) will be futile. God's thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways. Job was a righteous man who did fear the Lord; what happened to him was not the result of a lack of fear. It was, from the human perspective, completely arbitrary and unfair - but it suited God's mysterious plan. What would a Christian gain by living his life in constant fear of a Job-like scenario happening to him or her?

 

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I really don't think fear is the message of Job. Job had no reason to fear the Lord,

If we are led to discount the matters, yes. I'm not so led. There are legitimate reasons to fear God. Not just lip service fear either. Paul was even more elaborate about this matter:

2 Corinthians 5:11
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

unless we read the book literally and believe God arbitrarily allows Satan to wreak havoc on righteous men.

The account is a literal account, and yes, that is literally true as well, except I wouldn't term it arbitrary, but exacting, as in Divinely Precisely on Purpose. Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

That interpretation is precisely why many atheists say "The God of Christianity is a monster unworthy of worship."

Doesn't really matter what they say or think. The Spirit of God is no friend of the flesh in any case of sights. Gal. 5:17. And rather, the enemy of same. The flesh has reason to fear this adverse relationship, as Job amply shows.

Job happens to be my favorite book in the OT, but I believe it is essentially a parable leading to the real message at the conclusion:

I don't discount the parabolic or allegoric nature of what scriptures convey in any cases of sights. The question is more of "what exactly does that entail?" In simple terms, life/death-good/evil.

The God we worship is a mysterious, transcendent figure, and there will be times when all we can do is accept the mystery and keep on trusting.

I don't disagree with that conclusion. But I don't believe it's all about waffles either. Scriptures are given to convey matters and details.

All attempts to explain what has occurred (as with Job's friends) will be futile.

Don't know why it was bothered with then. I've turned to Job's conveyances many times during my life for the same reasons it was written.

God's thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways.

That doesn't mean we can't know or see what's up. Not in the fullest senses of the terms, granted.

Job was a righteous man who did fear the Lord; what happened to him was not the result of a lack of fear.

Job's conclusion was personal abhorrence. It's identical to what Jesus also conveys to His disciples. Not a lesson for everyone. For those who discount it, they are not meant to hear of it. Luke 14:26, Luke 18:14, John 12:25 all lead to the same conclusion held by Job and Abraham.

It's faithful sight.

It was, from the human perspective, completely arbitrary and unfair - but it suited God's mysterious plan. What would a Christian gain by living his life in constant fear of a Job-like scenario happening to him or her?

There is a natural planting. There are spiritual matters that are also planted therein. God is adverse to one, and secure to the other. 1 Cor. 15:42-46, Gal. 4:29. I find it all entirely interesting and engaging and yes, quite applicable to today.

What Job and most of the writers of the O.T. DIDN'T see is Mark 4:15. Jesus' Words tend to shed more light on the subject matters, in retrospect. And on that same sight, we'll locate the basis for Godly Deserving fear. As a practical example, if we observe Paul's state in 2 Cor. 12:7, we'll see a more specific construct. God was for Paul and quite the opposite for what he was bound to in the flesh, bound by God no less. What we'll find there IS a Love/Hate relationship. I submit to the reality of the construct. Personally.

Paul's quite rightful basis of "fear of the Lord" is pinpointed, exactly, in Romans 7:21. The evil present with all of us IS our scriptural basis of fear, legitimately so. And even if so because we ARE made by God in that way. Heb. 10:22 cites the same matter.

 

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The account is a literal account, and yes, that is literally true as well, except I wouldn't term it arbitrary, but exacting, as in Divinely Precisely on Purpose. Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

Doesn't really matter what they say or think. The Spirit of God is no friend of the flesh in any case of sights. Gal. 5:17. And rather, the enemy of same. The flesh has reason to fear this adverse relationship, as Job amply shows.

I'm not going to be drawn into a debate, because whatever is going inside your head is not what is going on inside my head. However, it is important to remember that Job was "blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil." Job 1:1 (NASB). Not pretty good - blameless. God Himself held Job up to Satan as a unique and shining example of humanity: "For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” Job 1:8 (NASB). Job was no enemy of God; Job's flesh was no enemy of God. He already "feared" God. If one insists on reading the book literally, the ugly inescapable conclusion is that God indeed authorizes Satan to wreak havoc on entirely blameless men and is either a moral monster (as the atheists claim) or an exceedingly mysterious being (as Christians acknowledge). Much of what Job's friends have to say is indeed wise, but the whole point is that what they say misses the mark because it doesn't fit the context - it might apply to you or me, because we are not blameless men, but not to Job. God then appears on stage to chastise Job's friends because they have tried to "explain" a God who is inexplicable and Job himself because he has failed to simply trust that whatever God is up to is wise and just in the context of God's mysterious plan for the world. The message of Job is not "Fear God" (at least in the sense you seem to be talking about). The message of Job is "Trust God."

 

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I'm not going to be drawn into a debate, because whatever is going inside your head is not what is going on inside my head.

There never was anything to debate. We all have evil present with us and God DOES deal adversely with that evil present with us. Romans 7:21. That's the long and the short of Job, and everyone else for that matter.

Do I expect evil present with anyone to agree? Never. It won't and can't happen. Nor can that evil present concede to the terms and conditions of scriptures, other than to "resist" same.

However, it is important to remember that Job was "blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil." Job 1:1 (NASB). Not pretty good - blameless.

If you bothered to engage my prior response, WHICH you requested by engaging my post to start with in the conversation, you'd see I did not equate Job with the evil present with him NOR do I equate any person with the evil present with them.

Your sight on the other hand has no sight of this matter nor does it have this distinction of sights. You just see Job. Just as any common blinded person sees.

Here is how God sees man: Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, Romans 9:18-24, 1 Cor. 15:42-46, 2 Tim. 2:20-21 etc etc.

IF you see just a person I'd suggest a closer inspection of scriptures prior to engaging scripture conversations.

 

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In the final analysis Job saw himself accurately:

Job 42:
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

No amount of legalism or good performances by Job, previously applied, could buy Job's way out of the trouble, the evil that GOD brought upon Job.

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 42:
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

It is a seat that Abraham knew as well.

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

We may not care to hear of it, but it is a fact of scripture, and of reality as well. They are hard lessons. There are exceptionally legitimate reasons to FEAR the Lord. Not just "lip service" fear.

Job is a rather unique book. You do not have to decide who says the right thing. Job realized his sins were put in a sack and sewn up.

His friends presented other manners of salvation.

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[reba]

This is the Bible Study forum... not a debate forum ... agree to disagree and move on.. Staff

 

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Job is a rather unique book. You do not have to decide who says the right thing. Job realized his sins were put in a sack and sewn up.

His friends presented other manners of salvation.

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Whatever way we are led to see, the sufferings of Job were quite real, and without any doubt, from God. It would be a mistake to assign blame and accusations to Job. What we should be led to ask is why. Why does God not only allow, but participate in such exercises? God could have taken many other approaches. He could have simply told Satan "too bad, leave him alone." But God didn't.

A similar engagement is found even with Jesus. Why would God exercise and undertake the execution of His Own Son?

To people, readers, anyone who hasn't experienced these kinds of loss types/sufferings, to those who assign such matters to simple random chance, such questions and observations are nearly meaningless. They can't relate. From my seat I like to know why. Or I'd have no reason to bother picking up the book to find out.

 

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Job 21:15 KJV
What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?

Eternal life.

Job would see his children (both sets) in the resurrection.

Prayers regarding Job and his family.

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Philippians 2:5-11
Jesus took form of servant and received honor.

Job 1:8 KJV
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there isnone like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Praying for his children put him in a servants role. As well as later when he prayed for his friends.

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Again a review of the switch from ungodly:
21:14 KJV
Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.

To the believers ;
21:15 KJV
What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?

Now the condition of the believers:
21:16 KJV
Lo, their good is not in their hand: the counsel of the wicked is far from me.

The believers do not trust in their works for good. The believers in the good of God trust in the work He does. In spite of the friends assertion of man being justified by his works and confession.

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Now back to the wicked for two verses:
21:17-18 KJV
How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.
18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.

While nations are destroyed in God's anger, the discipline used on God's people is not present in these two verses. The plant of God's people is not described in these two verses but stubble and chaff.

To spend mega time on these two verses will bog us down. The next verses will go back to God's people.
The next verses may take the mega time.

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Flat fore headed again (where my palm strikes when I understand). Revelation comes apart from my intellect.

When Jesus taught in parables, he only told the physical part to the crowds, and in private the spiritual rest of the story to the disciples.
But
In Job he gives the stubble and chaff being scattered in the wind.
And
Tells us it is the wicked. Pre law is evidently different.

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Flat fore headed again (where my palm strikes when I understand). Revelation comes apart from my intellect.

When Jesus taught in parables, he only told the physical part to the crowds, and in private the spiritual rest of the story to the disciples.
But
In Job he gives the stubble and chaff being scattered in the wind.
And
Tells us it is the wicked. Pre law is evidently different.

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When we read Job we should understand that the long dialogs with Job's 3 friends are partial sights and are in fact erroneous on many counts. When we arrive at Elihu, the young man who was with them, who is not even mentioned until Job 32:2, then observations change and get real in the Spiritual observations.

We know that all 3 of these guys are erroneous from God Himself:

Job 42:
7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

I don't put much in the form of "truthful" stakes from the dialogs of Job's 3 buddies. They were simply wrong. That's why it doesn't pay to observe them OTHER THAN to understand their errors and why they were wrong or partly sighted.

 

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21:19 KJV
God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it.

I Peter 2:24 KJV
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Hebrews 12:8 KJV
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

The energy of chastisement / correction is directed to / for his children, and not the wicked. The wicked did not draw the Father to send his Son to bear their sin (although whosoever will may be saved).

We hear the voice and open the door. We know that all these things are true. We do understand Job telling the truth.

Hebrews 12:6 KJV
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.


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Isaiah 53:6 KJV
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Job 21:20 KJV
His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.

Jesus saw in scripture his coming suffering.

Jesus's friends / disciple (Peter) did not see how he should suffer.

Job did not have a problem with suffering.

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Job 21:21 KJV
For what pleasure hath he in his house after him, when the number of his months is cut off in the midst?

More than likely this is a prophetic question about the length of life / ministry of Jesus. Job lived on earth after his ordeal with twice what he had before.

Jesus lived on in heaven with his position at the right hand of the Father.

Types do not fit perfectly, but they do carry information that can be understood.

Amos 3:7 KJV
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

The ministery of Jesus could be expressed in months.

Great benefit came to us.

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Job 21:22 KJV
Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.

The knowledge of truth comes from God and not our personal thoughts. The Luke passage below will help us.
From Job 21:23 to the end of the chapter you can use the following reference scripture text for information / understanding. Also when we go back to chapter 20 the following reference opens 20 up.

Luke 16:19-31
Is the story of the rich ruler and Lazarus.
...............
Job 21:23 KJV
One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet.
24 His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.
(This is the rich ruler)
Luke 16:19 KJV
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
............
Job 21:25 KJV
And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure.
(This is Lazarus)
Luke 16:20 KJV
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
...........
Job 21:26
They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
(Both die)
Luke 16:22 KJV
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
...........
Job 21:26 KJV
They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which you wrongfully imagine against me.
28 For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?
29 Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,
30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
33 The clods of the valley shall be sweet unto him, and every man shall draw after him, as there are innumerable before him.
(Job knows their opposing thoughts more on this in chapter 20).

34 How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?

Shortly we will look at chapter 20 of Job.

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