John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[JLB]

It has to do with 2 Peter because of what he said. That they had become entangled in sin again. The "again" means they had been set free from sin.

I believe the Bible, God, is clear that the only way to be free from sin is through Christ.

John 8:31-38
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33 They answered him, "We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, 'You will become free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.
35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.
36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.
38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father."

 

[atpollard]

It has to do with 2 Peter because of what he said. That they had become entangled in sin again. The "again" means they had been set free from sin.

"THEY" had been set free?

2 Peter 2 [NLT]
1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.


... This 'they' had been set free from sin? Is that your final answer?

 

[Nathan]

There you go getting all logical and rational on us!

(heh heh heh heh heh)

I believe God is not the author of confusion. I believe He set things in a specific order. I believe His Word is not confusing to His Children.

His creation may be complex, but it has an order.

Logic is simple. It's only when man chooses to defy Gods order that things seem illogical.

 

[Nathan]

"THEY" had been set free?

2 Peter 2 [NLT]
1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.


... This 'they' had been set free from sin? Is that your final answer?

Yes. That's my final answer. Do I win the million dollars?

What in the passage you quote indicates they never believed? Anything indicating they retain salvation?

It is not a strange thing to understand God knows who will continue in Faith and who will not. If God does not know the beginning and end then how could He be God? God knew pharaoh would harden his heart against Him. Yet He still sent Moses to him. Gods plan worked out just as He knew.

Sin does that to a person. That's the whole warning of not relying on OSAS. Again, that is the entire reason to warn and teach against the doctrine. God does not ever tell us a person of Faith cannot sin. That sin, left unchecked, will result in turning from the Faith. God knows this is going to happen, if He had deemed it not then there would be no need for warning of such.

There is no need for warning if there is not danger.

Romans 9:21-23
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-

 

[atpollard]

Luke 8:13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
"They" of 2 Peter 2

Luke 8:14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
May be "they" or "you" of 2 Peter 2 (God's call)

Luke 8:15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
Definitely "you" of 2 Peter 2

Why do you believe that the elect (Mark 13:22) / 'My sheep' (John 10:26-27) include both "They" and "You"?

 

[Nathan]

Luke 8:13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
"They" of 2 Peter 2

Luke 8:14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
May be "they" or "you" of 2 Peter 2 (God's call)

Luke 8:15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
Definitely "you" of 2 Peter 2

Why do you believe that the elect (Mark 13:22) / 'My sheep' (John 10:26-27) include both "They" and "You"?

I'm honestly confused by your question. Is there another way you could word it without loosing what your asking? I just want to respond fully knowing what your asking.

Luke 8:13 - Are you implying that these are not ones who recieved Faith? Is there more a person has to do than believe to recieve Faith?

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[atpollard]

What in the passage you quote indicates they never believed?

2 Peter 2:1 there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. [NIV]

To deny the Lord (Jesus) seems grounds for disqualification from salvation. Some translations describe it as false teachers infiltrating with these Christ denying heresies.

Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Denying the Lord, as they did in 2 Peter 2:1 would seem to disqualify them from the salvation of Romans 10:9-10. I also question the state of the heart of someone whose goal is to lie to the church to steal their money (2 Peter 2:3).

 

[atpollard]

I'm honestly confused by your question. Is there another way you could word it without loosing what your asking? I just want to respond fully knowing what your asking.

Luke 8:13 - Are you implying that these are not ones who recieved Faith? Is there more a person has to do than believe to recieve Faith?

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Probably, but it is after midnight local, and I have church in the morning. So it will have to wait. (I'm tired and at 8% battery). ;)

 

[civilwarbuff]

sigh
Do you really think that is the kind of question an adult would ask?
He did everything that someone who was nailed hands and feet to a cross could do.
The average believer is not literally nailed to a cross and unable to move.

Is it really necessary to insult people when you respond to a question? What is it with you? If you don't like the post, ignore it; if you don't like the poster put them on ignore.

 

[GodsGrace]

All of 2 Peter 2 is about the evil of False Teachers ...

2 Peter 2 [NLT]
1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.
4 For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell,[fn] in gloomy pits of darkness,[fn] where they are being held until the day of judgment. 5 And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood. 6 Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. 7 But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. 8 Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day. 9 So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment. 10 He is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desire, and who despise authority.
These people are proud and arrogant, daring even to scoff at supernatural beings[fn]without so much as trembling. 11 But the angels, who are far greater in power and strength, do not dare to bring from the Lord[fn] a charge of blasphemy against those supernatural beings.
12 These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. 13 Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception[fn] even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. 14 They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. 15 They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor,[fn] who loved to earn money by doing wrong. 16 But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice.
17 These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. 18 They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. 19 They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. 20 And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. 21 It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. 22 They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.”[fn] And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

... Can you reasonably claim this is talking about people who were once saved and have chosen to walk away from the truth? This looks more like wolves in sheep clothes leading the lost deeper into sin. More like the seed that is snatched away by the birds. What 'Repentence' is there for someone whose heart sees God's love as nothing more than an opportunity to commit far greater sins than even the most carnal of merely worldly sinners would commit?

No sir. It's about people who were once saved and now walk away.
It seem like Paul, or Peter, or James, or whoever, is always talking to someone else, but never to us.
Except in rare verses ALL OF THE N.T. is for us.

Let's go through 2 Peter 2:20-22

The beginning of chapter 2 is Titled: The Rise of False Prophets
Peter is speaking about false teachers, not unlike those who will come in the end times, that teach heresies.
God will be very mad at them, for He did not even spare the angels. verses 1-4

Then it goes on to say how God did not even spare the ANCIENT WORLD. Change of discussion.
He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah to make of them an example to those who would LIVE UNGODLY.
verses 5-6

God rescued Lot, a righteous man. Now Peter goes on to show the difference between a righteous man and one with corrups desires. verses 7-18

In verse 19 Peter is saying that these ungodly men are SLAVES TO SIN and corruption because by which a man in entangled, by this he is enslaved.

verse 20:
For AFTER they have escaped the defilements of the world...
At one point, they did indeed escape the defilments of the world. How?
By the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
KNOWLEDGE to know in the mind and in the heart the LORD and Savior.
The word LORD is very important in the N.T.

They are AGAIN entangled in them... showing that, indeed, they had escaped that entanglement at one time.
They are OVERCOME by the desires of the world and once again are slaves to them or it--the world.

verse 21:
And their last state is worse than the first. Because before they did not know the holy commandments, but now they do and they still desire NOT TO FOLLOW them. It means they WERE following the commandments because the commandments had been DELIVERED to them.

verse 22:
The above situation is like a dog returning to its vomit.

So,
The persons were unsaved.
Saved.
Unsaved.

Would you like to give "your version"?

There really is only one version. You must twist this around to suit your needs.

I'd like to hear how you understand the above.

W

 

[Nathan]

2 Peter 2:1 there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. [NIV]

To deny the Lord (Jesus) seems grounds for disqualification from salvation. Some translations describe it as false teachers infiltrating with these Christ denying heresies.

Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Denying the Lord, as they did in 2 Peter 2:1 would seem to disqualify them from the salvation of Romans 10:9-10. I also question the state of the heart of someone whose goal is to lie to the church to steal their money (2 Peter 2:3).

I think your correct, denying Christ would be grounds for disqualification.

I don't think all false teachers start out as such. The sin of greed is powerful to the flesh. Once entrapped, so deep in it, there could seem like no way out. Hearts become hard.

 

[JLB]

I think your correct, denying Christ would be grounds for disqualification.

I don't think all false teachers start out as such. The sin of greed is powerful to the flesh. Once entrapped, so deep in it, there could seem like no way out. Hearts become hard.

You both seem to make good points here.

Verse 4 is crucial to understand, when studying this subject, in which most folks just don't want to, or can't admit what is being implied and taught, because it is so controversial.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. 4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:1-5


... For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell ...

• The angels who sinned during the days of Noah, were teaching the people what was forbidden.

• These angels are sons of God.

The Point: being a son of God does not mean you can't be cast into hell. [see Lucifer]




JLB

 

[Nathan]

You both seem to make good points here.

Verse 4 is crucial to understand, when studying this subject, in which most folks just don't want to, or can't admit what is being implied and taught, because it is so controversial.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. 4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:1-5


... For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell ...

• The angels who sinned during the days of Noah, were teaching the people what was forbidden.

• These angels are sons of God.

The Point: being a son of God does not mean you can't be cast into hell. [see Lucifer]




JLB

That is a very good point. I think some will automatically say, "believers are not angles", but the point Peter was making was a comparison one.

He was comparing angels to believers, not Angels to unbelievers. Unbelievers are never referred to as "sons of God". That term is only used for believers, ones who have Faith.

 

[JLB]

That is a very good point. I think some will automatically say, "believers are not angles", but the point Peter was making was a comparison one.

He was comparing angels to believers, not Angels to unbelievers. Unbelievers are never referred to as "sons of God". That term is only used for believers, ones who have Faith.

Yes sir. Agreed.



JLB

 

[WIP]

Some have been engaging in an off topic discussion with little civility. I'm sure you know who you are. Let's drop that discussion and the sarcasm and get back on the topic hand.

 

[atpollard]

No sir. It's about people who were once saved and now walk away.

2 Peter 2:1-3 [NLT]
1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

In my church, false teachers who teach evil and destructive heresies involving shameful immorality; who deny Jesus Christ; who cause the Church to be slandered; who are full of greed and who craft clever lies to seek money ... are not viewed as 'saved'. If you view their departure as "once saved and now walking away", then so be it.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Peter 2:1-3 [NLT]
1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

In my church, false teachers who teach evil and destructive heresies involving shameful immorality; who deny Jesus Christ; who cause the Church to be slandered; who are full of greed and who craft clever lies to seek money ... are not viewed as 'saved'. If you view their departure as "once saved and now walking away", then so be it.

I respectfully disagree.

You only addressed verses 1 - 3 of my post.
I did 2 Peter 2:1-22

So you found a rather naiive way out a rebutal.
So why show a desire to discuss biblical verses unless you're really interested?

Are you not willing to give your explanation because you realized that I'm right?

 

[Pegasus]

Jesus had a beerd too.

Is OSAS even a Reformation doctrinal term? I don't think it is.

I think OSAS is a term used by others to form a straw man to beat upon.

The Reformers proclaimed, "It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone."--John Calvin

Also from Luther:

Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!

 

[Jim Parker]

Is OSAS even a Reformation doctrinal term? I don't think it is.

I don't believe it dates from the Calvinist Reformation. It seems to be a more modern derivation of the "P" in the Calvinist "TULIP"**: the "Preservation of the saints."

** 5 points of Calvinism
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

I think OSAS is a term used by others to form a straw man to beat upon.

Please explain why you think that.
How does "OSAS" differ from "Preservation of the Saints"?

The Reformers proclaimed, "It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone."--John Calvin

"Justification by faith" is a different topic from "OSAS."

Also from Luther: Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!

Just to be clear, Luther was NOT a reformer. He was just a better Catholic than his hierarchy and got tossed out for making waves by preaching against the sale of indulgences (buying a stairway to heaven??) but his theology remained essentially identical to that of the RCC.

iakov the fool

 

[atpollard]

You only addressed verses 1 - 3 of my post.
I did 2 Peter 2:1-22

So you found a rather naiive way out a rebutal.
So why show a desire to discuss biblical verses unless you're really interested?

Are you not willing to give your explanation because you realized that I'm right?

Thank you for the insults, it makes walking away SO much easier.

What possible point would there be in a verse by verse discussion in which we cannot even agree on who the chapter is talking about? I presented my view of who "they" of 2 Peter 2 described over and over in negative terms. You responded with an opening statement that "they" were saved and walked away. I offered a rebuttal from the first three verses why "they" were never saved.

What more is there to explain? We disagree about who "they" are.

2 Peter 2:1 "false teachers" = THEY; "teach destructive heresies" = THEY; "deny the Master" = THEY
2 Peter 2:2 "evil teaching" = THEY
2 Peter 2:3 "make up clever lies to get hold of your money" = THEY; "God condemned" = THEY
[new paragraph]
2 Peter 2:4-6 "He (GOD) made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people." = the point of v.4-6 as applicable to THEM.
2 Peter 2:7-9 "So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials" = the point of v.7-9 as applicable to US (but not to THEM); "even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment." = the point of v.7-9 as applicable to THEM.
2 Peter 2:10 "who follow their own twisted sexual desire, and who despise authority" = which is the exact same charge leveled against the False Teachers (THEM) of v.1-3.
[new paragraph]
2 Peter 2:12 "These false teachers" = hey! Peter is still talking about THEM, isn't he.; "unthinking animals" = THEM; "born to be caught and destroyed." = THEM (who you claim were once saved ... so they were born to be destroyed, saved, and used their free will to choose to be destroyed.; "they will be destroyed." = THEY
2 Peter 2:13 "Their destruction ... they have ... They love ... They are ... They delight .. they eat" = all abou THEY, the same THEY as the beginning of the chapter.; "with you in your fellowship meals." = YOU as distinct and very different from THEY.
2 Peter 2:14 "They commit adultery" = THEY; "their desire for sin" = THEY; "They lure" = THEY; "they are well trained in greed." = THEY; "They live under God’s curse." = THEY.
2 Peter 2:15 "They have wandered" = still THEY; "Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong." = an example of THEM and hardly a poster child for someone "once saved".
2 Peter 2:16 "But Balaam was stopped" = here we have a reason for the hope that is within US. I keep being asked why I believe that Saints WILL Persevere - if God could prevent a greedy profit (pun intended) from doing the wrong thing, why is it so hard to believe that God can do what is needed (even sending a talking donkey) to preserve His sheep?

[Last paragraph skipped because you will just want to argue and I have no desire to play that game.]