John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Nathan]

Please post a link here......

Will do once I get it going.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please cite the scripture for that.....
Romans 6
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.

Scripture for that?
1 Corinthians 9
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

CWB
I gave you the scripture.
I'm not here to state my OPINION. When it's an opinion, I say so.
I said it was Mathew 5:17-20
We are still under the Law. The Moral Law.
Please explain what you don't like about what Jesus stated in Mathew.

We are born dead and headed to hell.
Do you not agree with this?

In John 3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that we must BE BORN AGAIN. Born from above. Born of water and spirit. Only then can we be saved.
Must I post John 3:16?
I'm sure this is a misunderstanding from my post, since I'm sure you'll agree on this.

Romans 6:14
Before we were required to keep the commandments without the help of the Holy Spirit and the sacrifice of Jesus.
Sin dominated our life.
NOW it no longer dominates us because we're not TRYING TO FOLLOW THE LAW without any help.
BEFORE sin told us how to live. We inclined toward it, we tended toward sin.

But now we're not living as slaves under the Law. We still must follow the Law, but now we are FRIENDS of God and not slaves so we WANT to live as He would want us to, so we tend toward our Holy Spirit helper, we tend toward not sinning.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, trying to dodge again.
The information would be HISTORICAL not scriptural as there is not a clear description of the liturgy in scripture.

From the church's historical documents:
That the early church had a developed liturgy by the second century is attested to by the statements of Justin Martyr.

Justin Martyr: (AD 100-165) The First Apology of Justin
Chapter LXVII.—Weekly Worship of the Christians.
…… (1) And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and
(2) the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits;
(3) then, when the reader has ceased, the president1 verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.
(4) Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended,
(5) bread and wine and water are brought, and the president1 in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and
(6) the people assent, saying Amen;
(7) and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, (the Eucharist) and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons………….

Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples,

(8) He (Jesus) taught them (the apostles & disciples) these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Justin described a gathering
(a) of the entire local church,
(b) at a place which would accommodate them,
(c) on Sunday.

He then described the process of the meeting which are easily identified as:

A. the Liturgy of the word
(1) The reading of the Gospels or Prophets
(2) The sermon
(3) The prayers of the people

B. The Liturgy of the Eucharist
(4) The consecration of the bread and wine (by the presider, AKA: "priest")
(5) The “great Amen”
(6) The people receive the Eucharist

The source of this form of liturgy: Justin stated that it was Jesus who taught this form of worship. Thus, Justin refuted the notion that the Mass was a later development.

What Justin describes is the basic format of the liturgy that is followed to this day in all Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Coptic and Assyrian Churches.

1. The “president” refers to the presiding presbyter or the overseer. The word “presbyter” or “elder” (presbuteros) has come down to us in modern English as “priest” and the word overseer (episcopos) has come down to us in English as “bishop.”

B. Or a Bishop

 

[Jim Parker]

Then I accept your declination....

Cute.
More dodging - not fooling anyone

 

[civilwarbuff]

Ah, trying to dodge again.
The information would be HISTORICAL not scriptural as there is not a clear description of the liturgy in scripture.

No dodge, just hoping you would admit there is no scriptural support in the Gospels from Messiah for how the physical church is to be organized and little scriptural support (none from Messiah) in the Epistles but ample support for the universal/invisible church, the church of all believers.
The physical church is led by men, hopefully guided by the Holy Spirit (but frequently demonstrated otherwise) and is prone to error. The universal church is led by Messiah and is perfect and unfailing because it consist of believers.
Now understand, I am not critisizing traditiional Christianity because of their practices and how they worship (least ways, no more than they might criticize Protestants) if it brings them closer to Messiah.....I would simply ask the same courtesy in return.

 

[JLB]

Most of my posts were deleted by Judy the previous Admin on this site.

Ok.

Be blessed.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I gave you the scripture.
I'm not here to state my OPINION. When it's an opinion, I say so.
I said it was Mathew 5:17-20
We are still under the Law. The Moral Law.
Please explain what you don't like about what Jesus stated in Mathew.

Romans 6:14
Grace encompasses 'moral' law. I believe all law from God is moral.

We are born dead and headed to hell.
Do you not agree with this?

If you are including those who die before or shortly after birth, then no, I don't agree.

In John 3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that we must BE BORN AGAIN. Born from above. Born of water and spirit. Only then can we be saved.
Must I post John 3:16?
I'm sure this is a misunderstanding from my post, since I'm sure you'll agree on this.

And if you believe in Messiah then you are born again of the spirit.....but the key word is 'believe'......the Master says it twice.....that must mean it is very important to understand.
John 3
15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 6:14
Before we were required to keep the commandments without the help of the Holy Spirit and the sacrifice of Jesus.
Sin dominated our life.
NOW it no longer dominates us because we're not TRYING TO FOLLOW THE LAW without any help.
BEFORE sin told us how to live. We inclined toward it, we tended toward sin.

But now we're not living as slaves under the Law. We still must follow the Law, but now we are FRIENDS of God and not slaves so we WANT to live as He would want us to, so we tend toward our Holy Spirit helper, we tend toward not sinning.

Where, anywhere in NT scripture, does it say that believers must follow the OT Law? Please show me....because if that is true there should be several at least because it must be very important for us to understand this.....

 

[JLB]

Believers are under Grace, non-believers will be judged under the Law.....

Those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not live their lives according to the desires of the flesh, are the ones who will avoid condemnation.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

Those who are in Christ Jesus but do live according to flesh, will be condemned.

This means damned to hell.


JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

Those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not live their lives according to the desires of the flesh, are not the ones who will avoid condemnation.

Is there an extra 'not' in here?......

 

[Jim Parker]

No dodge, just hoping you would admit there is no scriptural support in the Gospels from Messiah for how the physical church is to be organized and little scriptural support (none from Messiah) in the Epistles but ample support for the universal/invisible church, the church of all believers.

And I bet you have no clue that those are two different topics.

I gave you historical evidence. As a Civil War buff, do you not have regard for historical evidence?

1 Ti 3:1-7 (NKJV) describes the qualifications of a bishop.
1 Ti 3:8-12 describes the qualifications of a deacon.
1Ti 5:17 instructs the church to pay their elders.
Eph 4:11 states that Christ put evangelists, apostles, prophets, pastors and teachers in the church.
But you can't find any organization......

Any way, this is all very off topic.
If you want to discuss your issues with the original church then please start another thread to do so.

 

[Nathan]

For those interested.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...ternal-life-and-salvation-in-the-bible.68656/

 

[Anto9us]

The LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS

has set us free from THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH

 

[Jim Parker]

Those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not live their lives according to the desires of the flesh, are not the ones who will avoid condemnation.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1
Those who are in Christ Jesus but do live according to flesh, will be condemned.
This means damned to hell.
JLB

At Mat 24, Jesus began to teach about His second coming.
At verse 24 He gave the Parable of the unfaithful servant.
The servant was a member of the master's household.
The parable ends with: "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Mat 24:50-51
At Mat 25:14, Jesus began the parable of the master who gave money to his servants to use. WHen he returned, two had gained a profit for their master and one did not. He was "cast out...into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (v.30) All three were servants of the master. One was cast out.

Those are parables which depict the loss of salvation.

iakov the fool

 

[civilwarbuff]

And I bet you have no clue that those are two different topics.

You would lose that bet......I like my steak medium rare please....
When talking about history in a scriptural/biblical context the history must always be supported by scripture; otherwise you are simply talking opinion.

 

[Jim Parker]

You would lose that bet......I like my steak medium rare please....

It wasn't a bet.
It was informing you that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It wasn't a bet.
It was informing you that you have no idea what you are talking about.

As I said you lost that bet......

 

[Jim Parker]

The physical church is led by men, hopefully guided by the Holy Spirit (but frequently demonstrated otherwise) and is prone to error.

The physical church is led by physical men.
All men are fallible.

The universal church is led by Messiah and is perfect and unfailing because it consist of believers.

that is a sentence which is properly defined as sentimental gibberish.

Again, please try to stick to the topic, or, as you suggested, start another thread for your issues.

 

[Jim Parker]

As I said you lost that bet......

I saw what you said.
Since there was no "bet", you appear to be babbling.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I saw what you said.
Since there was no "bet", you appear to be babbling.

And I bet you have no clue that those are two different topics.

 

[Jim Parker]

I stand corrected.
I did say "bet."
And you are clueless.
Now, I will ignore any more of you off-topic posts as they are a serious distraction from the topic of the OP.