John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[chessman]

I am having trouble understanding what you mean by "They will have immortality and incorruptibility". When/where/how do they get this, and most importantly why?

By reading the verse and context, we can see that it is the brethern (all of us brethren, BTW) that will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (AKJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

Some traditions go ahead and extend this change to non-brethren. Oddly.

 

[Nathan]

By reading the verse and context, we can see that it is the brethern (all of us brethren, BTW) that will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (AKJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

Some traditions go ahead and extend this change to non-brethren. Oddly.

Right, I get that believers have this happen, but the post seemed to indicate this also happens to non-believers sometime before being put in hell.

 

[Jim Parker]

I am having trouble understanding what you mean by "They will have immortality and incorruptibility". When/where/how do they get this, and most importantly why?

Man was not created to die. He was created in the image and likeness of God. (Gen 1:26)
God does not die.
God alone has life because of who/what he is. (Jhn 1:4)
God gave life to Adam. (Gen 2:7)

Adam separated himself from God by his disobedience (Gen 2:17) and began to die physically. (Gen 5:5)
We all inherit from Adam the wages of sin (Ro 2:23) because we are all made in Adam's image and likeness by being descendants of Adam through his son Seth. (Gen 5:3)
Because of sin, all mankind became mortal. We all die.
That is the work of Satan, who deceived Eve, by which he defaced the image and likeness of God in mankind.

By His death and resurrection, Jesus destroyed Satan's work. (1Jo 3:8)
He destroyed the power of death and all of mankind will be raised from the dead never to physically die again. (1 Cor 15:52-57)

So, even though our bodies decay (corrupt) and "return to dust" in the grave, everyone will be raised from the dead as a perfect human being according to God's original plan which was that we should not die. (1 Cor 15:53-54)

But "where" we spend eternity is determined by whether or not each person was "in Christ" or if he was separated from Christ by his choice to reject God's gift of eternal life.

Eternal life is being both physically alive and physically perfect and eternally and intimately united to Christ. (John3:16, Eph 5:29-32)
The "second death" (Rev 21:8) is being both physically alive and physically perfect and eternally separated from God.

Hope that helps.


iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

Kind of, not really though. That whole chapter of Corinthians deals with believers. I do not see any mention of unbelievers in it?

Also, God said very specifically that Adam and Eve would die in the very day they ate. He did not say they would start to die.

 

[Jim Parker]

Kind of, not really though. That whole chapter of Corinthians deals with believers. I do not see any mention of unbelievers in it?


Also, God said very specifically that Adam and Eve would die in the very day they ate. He did not say they would start to die.

Does 1 Cor 15 say only believers are resurrected?
1Co 15:35 But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
Is it not the teaching of scripture that all of mankind will be resurrected? (Mark 12, Rev 20:12)
Is punishment in hell not eternal? (Mat 25:46) How can it be eternal unless those who are punished are also eternal?
Did A & E drop dead as soon as they ate the fruit?

 

[Nathan]

Are those who are not believers not resurrected?
Is punishment in hell not eternal?
Did A & E drop dead as soon as they ate the fruit?

I find that they are judged, but never where it says they are "resurrected".

Punishment and hell is eternal, as in, there is no end of it.

A and E did die that day, spiritually.

That is the essence of the resurrection - Spiritual. Although we will also have heavenly bodies, whatever those are like. Can't wait to see!

From 1 Corinthians 15;

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; git is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; it he last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

 

[Jim Parker]

I find that they are judged, but never where it says they are "resurrected".

Mark 12,:18-24; Rev 20:12

Punishment and hell is eternal, as in, there is no end of it.

So how is anyone punished?

A and E did die that day, spiritually.

Where does scripture say they died "spiritually" and what does scripture say to die "spiritually" means?

That is the essence of the resurrection - Spiritual.

Did Jesus raise as a spirit?
No.
Luk 24:36-39 As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them. But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Where does scripture say the general resurrection will be different?
It does not.
1 Cor 15"42-49, which you quoted, says that the resurrected body will be a spiritual body. It will be like Christ's resurrected body which was flesh and BONES, not flesh and BLOOD, because His life was no longer in the blood but in the Spirit.
It says that believers will be like Jesus. (1 John 3:2)
NOWHERE does scripture states (or even suggest) that those who are not saved will be raised without a body as spirits.

 

[Kidron]

Edited


Let look at the CORRECT verses that actually DEAL with Eternal LIFE as JOHN explains them, so that we get the DOCTRINE of ETERNAL LIFE down, solid, and keep it secure.

1Jn 5:11 : And this is the testimony: God = has given us eternal life,= and this life is in his Son.

1Jn 5:12 : Whosoever HAS the Son HAS Eternal LIFE;.... >whoever does not have< the Son of God does not have eternal life.

SEE THE CONDITION?

1Jn 5: 13 : I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, who has Eternal life?.....= Christians.....(believers)., as only Christians have JESUS INSIDE THEM.
See it?
"He that HAS THE SON = HAS ETERNAL LIFE".
See it?
Are you not "the temple of the Holy Spirit"?
See it?
"Christ IN YOU the hope of Glory".
See it?
"If any person has not the SPIRIT OF GOD (Christ in you), then he is NON OF GOD's.
See it?
So, its not about your abiding, but rather its about "whosoever has the SON" on the inside of them = ALL BELIEVERS.
See it?

Now, did you read those verses that tell you WHO is Eternal life, and that you HAVE HIM , and that because you have HIM, ..JESUS<.. who IS ETERNAL LIFE Living inside you, = then THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
Its because you have HIM< who IS ETERNAL LIFE, in YOU.
In YOU.
IN YOU.
IN YOU.
IN IN IN IN YOU.
See it?
So, if you have JESUS who IS Eternal life IN YOU then.......wait for it......wait........ YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE !!!
GLORY TO GOD !
This is why the verse says...."He (YOU) that HAS THE SON, = YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE".

See, you dont abide in Him to have Eternal life, but rather He WHO IS ETERNAL LIFE IS ABIDING IN YOU. = WHY YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

<K><

 

[civilwarbuff]

Man was not created to die.

No, does not seem like it......
Gen 3
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also ofthe tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

 

[Nathan]

Mark 12,:18-24; Rev 20:12

So how is anyone punished?

Where does scripture say they died "spiritually" and what does scripture say to die "spiritually" means?

Did Jesus raise as a spirit?
No.
Luk 24:36-39 As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them. But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Where does scripture say the general resurrection will be different?
It does not.
1 Cor 15"42-49, which you quoted, says that the resurrected body will be a spiritual body. It will be like Christ's resurrected body which was flesh and BONES, not flesh and BLOOD, because His life was no longer in the blood but in the Spirit.
It says that believers will be like Jesus. (1 John 3:2)
NOWHERE does scripture states (or even suggest) that those who are not saved will be raised without a body as spirits.

The passages you list first deal speak nothing of unbelievers, just of resurrection in general. The Revelation passage does speak of the unbelievers, but its interesting how it does not use the word resurrection. I mean, think about it, the passages just before use the word a lot about believers, but then you get to the unbelievers and the word is not used - just that they are "standing" there. I don't find that a coincidence

How were Adam and Eve punished? They were separated from God. Eternal life is reunification with God the same as eternal death is forever separation.

We know God does not lie. So if He said they would die, they had to die. We see that their physical bodies did not die, so something had to. We also see that "something" happened and they saw they were naked. As far as a passage saying "and Adam and Eve died spiritually....", sorry, I do not think there is one.

Jesus raised in flesh and spirit. We see that from the wounds in His side and how he could eat. But we also know He also has the Spirit inside Him.

Matter of fact, we who believe do also. That's why Paul tells believers to take heart with the ones who have "died" referring to them as "sleeping".

I never implied that we would be raised without bodies. We will be, that is one of our rewards. Can't wait to see mine!

 

[Nathan]

Even though I've been a member here for a while, I have not been around in a long time. Guess it's gonna take a while to see everyone's ideas. I do enjoy seeing different viewpoints.

 

[Nathan]

Another thought on "bodies". All we know is they will be like the Angels. And we know angels can be seen by humans, and not seen by them. I don't know how that works, but it does.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I cannot lose my salvation. God has sealed me and Jesus is keeping me. He refuses to let me go. He won't let the enemy snatch me out of HIS Hand! My salvation is guaranteed by God. /thread

Me------><-----Jesus

 

[JLB]

I cannot lose my salvation. God has sealed me and Jesus is keeping me. He refuses to let me go. He won't let the enemy snatch me out of HIS Hand! My salvation is guaranteed by God. /thread

Me------><-----Jesus

Just continue in the faith, by which you now stand, so at the end of your faith you will receive the salvation of your soul.

It's under persecution, and the threat of death to ourselves and our loved ones that our faith may not be able to endure.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

The disciples lived through these things, and knew the very real day to day persecution that was experienced in the early Church.

The Lord warned them of this very thing and demonstrated His faithfulness to yield Himself to be crucified on the cross.

These words were taught to His disciples:

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:18-23


Jesus warned us, about the days just before His coming, that there would be world wide hatred towards the Church, and it was those who endured to the end, will be saved.


9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:9-14


Do you know what the word "witness" in verse 14 is referring to?



JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

Here's a link worth reading. Most of us here read a passage of Scripture and filter it though our limited knowledge and experience. Not to mention our present day cultural understanding. Few of us dig deeper and ask the hard questions. The Bible was not written to you and I. Stop trying to understand it from your perspective. On this point, I know I am right. It's a standard principle of biblical interpretation.

http://www.comereason.org/bible-verses-on-salvation.asp
http://www.comereason.org/can-you-lose-your-salvation.asp

I thought both articles were helpful in sorting out the differences of the two sides.

also good: https://www.gty.org/library/questions/QA198
http://www.backtothebible.org/is-my-salvation-in-Christ-secure-or-can-I-lose-my-salvation
"The gift of God is eternal life" (Rom. 6:23). How can eternal life be anything else but eternal? It cannot be lost, forfeited, or sinned away, for "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29). Eternal life once given is an everlasting gift. - See more at: http://www.backtothebible.org/is-my...-can-I-lose-my-salvation#sthash.iexKBy3K.dpuf

Imagine a young believer in Jesus reading the endless debate and getting discouraged in the Faith. How about spending more time on encouraging one another in the faith. You cannot make a biblical case for losing your salvation without ending up with contradicting verses. The Bible doesn't contradict. If you are saved, your salvation is sure.

 

[Papa Zoom]

NOW GO!!!! Live a life worthy of your calling in Christ!!! This is the message we're to preach!!!

 

[JLB]

SEE THE CONDITION?

I see the condition.

Here's a condition for receiving eternal life, also.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


See the condition, by which some Christians will receive eternal life, and some Christians will receive indignation and wrath?

...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good

...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8



JLB

 

[JLB]

It cannot be lost, forfeited, or sinned away, for "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29).

It can be unbelieved away.


19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:19-29


"They" in verse 28 is referring to unbelieving Jews, who are enemies of the Gospel.

The gifts and calling of the Gospel to repent, remain open to them, if they will believe.

The context is a reference to unbelieving Jews who are enemies of the Gospel.


Do you think they have eternal life?



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

The passages you list first deal speak nothing of unbelievers, just of resurrection in general.

"In general" would includen the believers and those who do not believe.
Unless you are saying that only believers are resurrected.

We know God does not lie. So if He said they would die, they had to die. We see that their physical bodies did not die, so something had to.

But your conclusion is speculation.
There were expelled from the garden and denied any further access to the tree of life. (Gen3:22-24)
Eventually, they both died.
They both died because they were cut of from the source of life. (The tree of life)
The tree of life is (metaphorically) Jesus. (John 1:14)

I never implied that we would be raised without bodies.

OK. Just checking.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I have always come down on the side of OSAS but there is a verse that is troubling:
Acts 3
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal judgment:

Can a saved person blaspheme their salvation away?