John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[JLB]

You can't lost the gift of salvation.

You receive salvation, as an end [completed] result of faith.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

• If you depart from the faith, before the end result is attained, the you have discarded the means and the gift by which you are saved.

... receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 John 1:9


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8


Faith is the gift and substance and unseen evidence of salvation.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

http://www.str.org/articles/eternal-security-cheap-grace-and-free-will#.WLewiDw76Ee

I fully agree with this guy. And John Piper and John MacArthur and hundreds of other theologians. You can't lost the gift of salvation. It's a gift. Forgiveness is totally on Gods terms. Isolated verses shouldn't be used to form an entire doctrine. When god makes a promise He keeps it. The above article is clear thinking on the topic. Many won't agree. It's worth reading.

The ONLY thing that would make salvation not able to be lost is the believer ultimately can never stop believing permanently, and that all the warnings in the Bible to not stop believing, or else be lost, will ultimately be successful in persuading the believer to never leave the faith, or eventually come back. Sounds good, right? I respect the argument. I believed that for many years. But when we hear of death bed refusals to come back to the faith.....well....that kind of sours that argument.

Regardless, the Bible says to keep believing, or else be lost, and that's what we need to be telling believers. Whether you or I want to believe that warning will always be successful or not is an individual conviction between us and God, and I can accept that (and have). But this ridiculous hyper/free grace doctrine that has former believers who now hate and deny and reject Christ to his face still retaining the gift of eternal life and being saved on the Day of Wrath is so ludicrous it's amazing to me that any Christian would believe such an outrageous anti-gospel/ anit christ message. But traditional OSAS is what opened the door to that teaching.

The bottom line is, it's not a question of what will happen to the person who stops believing. The Bible is very clear about that. It's a question of whether they really can permanently stop believing. I think they can. But I respect the person who believes they can't. At least the person who thinks they can't stop believing retains the necessity for the righteousness of faith in the life of the believer as the condition for being saved.

 

[JLB]

But this ridiculous hyper/free grace doctrine that has former believers who now hate and deny and reject Christ to his face still retaining the gift of eternal life and being saved on the Day of Wrath is so ludicrous it's amazing to me that any Christian would believe such an outrageous anti-gospel message. But traditional OSAS is what opened the door to that teaching.

So true.

It is my belief that this is one of the doctrine of demons that Paul, by the Spirit, warned us about, in which believing and giving heed to such nonsense will cause many to depart from the faith in Jesus Christ, running headlong towards destruction and wrath, while believing that their salvation can never be lost no matter they do, or how they live, eventually being overcome by the sinful lifestyle they have returned to.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[Nathan]

I was contemplating this last night. I've said before, I understand why people believe in not "loosing" salvation. So I was thinking why is there such a stark difference in opinions on such a wonderful thing?

I truly believe it is because we have such differences in idea's of what salvation is to begin with. When this topic is brought up, both sides go instantly to the passages that deal with their respective beliefs - verses that deal with having eternal salvation, and those dealing with leaving the Faith.

How about instead, the thought process turns to understanding what salvation is? Not how we get, keep, or loose it. Kind of like building something, start from the ground with a sturdy foundation, then build up.

 

[reba]

I was contemplating this last night. I've said before, I understand why people believe in not "loosing" salvation. So I was thinking why is there such a stark difference in opinions on such a wonderful thing?

I truly believe it is because we have such differences in idea's of what salvation is to begin with. When this topic is brought up, both sides go instantly to the passages that deal with their respective beliefs - verses that deal with having eternal salvation, and those dealing with leaving the Faith.

How about instead, the thought process turns to understanding what salvation is? Not how we get, keep, or loose it. Kind of like building something, start from the ground with a sturdy foundation, then build up.

Really Nathan? a common sense approach ? Wouldn't that be wonderful.. nice post

 

[WIP]

Really Nathan? a common sense approach ? Wouldn't that be wonderful.. nice post

I agree. Interesting observation. Is it possible we are focusing too much on the how we achieve rather than from where/whom it comes?

 

[Edward]

I have a question that I've been thinking about asking for awhile. In John 1:2 it says to those that received Him, He gave the power to become the sons of God...So apparently, we're not the sons of God just because we're born again and have salvation, but is within our reach if we press forward and pursue it. This thought alone makes me wonder...Are we really born again at the moment that we say the sinners prayer, or is it possible that it comes later?

I know that the popular opinion is that we're saved right then and there. Boom, done deal. But! it also says thatmany honor Him with their lips, but their heart is far from Him. So to me, this might mean that perhaps not all receive salvation at that particular moment? Is there scripture that says, we receive salvation instantly?

 

[reba]

What does a new born baby know?
can he walk
how about talk
we live and grow

 

[atpollard]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

Like Muslims have ... starting with praise for the Gospels and the Prophet Isa (Jesus) and twisting it into something very much not part of Christianity.

Of Jehovah's Witnesses, with Jesus as the greatest of the created things.

Have they fulfilled the warning of 1 Timothy 4:1 without ever being saved?
(Not an attack, simply exploring the possibility that Grace really is grace and "will never leave you or forsake you" means exactly that ... NEVER.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"will never leave you or forsake you" means exactly that ... NEVER.

This from the old testament. A simple read of the passage shows us it does not mean God will never forsake his people, no matter what.

6“Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you.” (Deuteronomy 31:6 NASB bold mine)

Now let's skip down to vs.16 and see where God himself says HE WILL FORSAKE THEM, AND WHY:

"16The LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17“Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?’ 18“But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods." (Deuteronomy 31:16-18 NASB bold and underline mine)

Are we now safe in this New Covenant to turn to other God's and not be forsaken by God? Hyper-grace doctrine says, "yes, grace is a license for you to turn to other gods and continue to be safe from the wrath of God." And if OSAS wants to argue that the disobedient believer will indeed suffer the penalty of their rebellion in this life, and lose out on rewards in the kingdom, and be forsaken in that sense, then they have to insist this is not an OSAS passage but rather a rewards passage and should never be used to defend OSAS.

 

[Nathan]

I agree. Interesting observation. Is it possible we are focusing too much on the how we achieve rather than from where/whom it comes?

Makes sense. This is the theology forum......

 

[atpollard]

Regardless, the Bible says to keep believing, or else be lost, and that's what we need to be telling believers. Whether you or I want to believe that warning will always be successful or not is an individual conviction between us and God, and I can accept that (and have). But this ridiculous hyper/free grace doctrine that has former believers who now hate and deny and reject Christ to his face still retaining the gift of eternal life and being saved on the Day of Wrath is so ludicrous it's amazing to me that any Christian would believe such an outrageous anti-gospel/ anit christ message. But traditional OSAS is what opened the door to that teaching.

1 John 2:18-26 [NIV]
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

I disagree with your view on eternal security, but agree with your concern and rejection of a 'saved' God-hater. I take my que on this matter from the above quote from 1 John. It says "but they did not really belong to us." I do not throw that out in the usual trite defense that it is often used. It is a very real thing for me. Of the people that I grew up with, only one lived to adulthood (besides myself). The person who led me to Christ, who reached out to an atheist gang member, eventually abandoned his wife and children to become a gay activist and one of the first same-sex marriages in Massachusetts. So it is more than some hypothetical 'what if' to me. It is a very real thing. Yet I know with the same certainty, that when I was beaten down and at my lowest ... when I was ready to walk away, God intervened and would not allow me to 'curse him and die' (as Job's wife suggested). So I know, experientially, EXACTLY what is required for ME to lose my salvation. I could not do it, even when I was willing.

So this is an issue that I am personally invested in and torn over. From 1 John, I take away the reality that I am called to work out MY SALVATION with fear and trembling ... I have no hope to really see into the heart and soul of another to know the truth about their salvation. A faith can be so battered that to all outward appearances, it is not merely dead, it never lived ... then the Holy Spirit can suddenly fan the flames and re-ignite a blaze. A life can appear to be so full of faith that you think "I want what they have" and suddenly, nothing was what it appeared to be. I have given up even trying to guess about the faith of another. My new mantra is "I am not their mother". Good or bad. I can "give a reason for the hope that is within me" and I can share my thoughts and experiences, but I have no idea what soil is good or bad. Whose heart is transformed or deceitful.

Back to 1 John. Over and over, the bible paints a picture of "us and them". Two different groups that are superficially mixed, but seem to be headed in different directions. (v.19) "THEY went out from US", and (v.20) "But you" ... have an anointing and know the truth. That's a pretty fundamental difference between US (stayed, anointed, truth) and THEM (left, not anointed, liars).

Then we come to 1 John 2:26 "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray."
Look at why he is giving all of these warnings. The anointing remains in US (v.27) but the need is to be wary of THEM ... the false teachers.

So for me, the issue is to never forget that there is an US and a THEM and 'US' has the anointing and responsibility to be on guard against the mischief of 'THEM'. Until we get to Heaven and God clearly sorts US from THEM, we cannot tell who God has chosen to forgive. That is God's business, and not mine. I can just maintain a healthy skepticism about anyone who does not care to please God and point them to some of the many US and THEM scriptures if they ever ask. Ultimately, making disciples means introducing people to the God that introduced himself to me. Their relationship is ultimately between them. Who am I to judge another man's servant?

 

[atpollard]

This from the old testament. A simple read of the passage shows us it does not mean God will never forsake his people, no matter what.

I was thinking of Hebrews 13 and a general reference to the faithfulness of God.
Hebrews is interesting because it teaches us that the OT is not to be viewed literally and applied to the NT, but that the NT Truth is the lens through which the OT is searched and understood and viewed based on Typology. As God was faithful to the people through Moses, how much more will God be faithful to the spiritual children of Abraham through one greater than Moses (Jesus Christ). Thus by the typology of the new covenant, God will truly NEVER forsake his elect, those he fore-loved.

 

[civilwarbuff]

On the support side of OSAS there is the Prodigal Son.....welcomed back to his Father's house no questions, no condemnation, no recrimination.....the father cuts off his admission of guilt....a cloak, ring and feast given to him....the father even corrects his other son, who had obeyed his father, for objecting to the celebration.
Either side of OSAS is not so easy to lay to rest......

 

[WIP]

I have a question that I've been thinking about asking for awhile. In John 1:2 it says to those that received Him, He gave the power to become the sons of God...So apparently, we're not the sons of God just because we're born again and have salvation, but is within our reach if we press forward and pursue it. This thought alone makes me wonder...Are we really born again at the moment that we say the sinners prayer, or is it possible that it comes later?

I know that the popular opinion is that we're saved right then and there. Boom, done deal. But! it also says thatmany honor Him with their lips, but their heart is far from Him. So to me, this might mean that perhaps not all receive salvation at that particular moment? Is there scripture that says, we receive salvation instantly?

What concerns me is that, now this is of course just my opinion, too often people get the impression that praying the sinner's prayer is enough. In other words, if in a moment of being caught up in the excitement of a situation (evangelistic event for example) I mouth the words of the sinner's prayer as presented to me by another that instructs, "Repeat after me" I am saved and from that moment on nothing else matters because I cannot lose said salvation no matter what. I can leave the situation return or continue in my old ways with the understanding that life is good now because I'm in.

Mouthing a prayer is not praying, is it? Repeating words as instructed by another is not prayer, is it? My understanding of prayer is a personal, intimate conversation with God Almighty expressed from within.

Is being saved something that just happens at a single blink or moment in time and done or is it something that results in a complete renovating change of the person lasting a lifetime and beyond? That is, not only the salvation lasts for eternity but the change in the person as well would go hand-in-hand. Is a person completely changed in a moment or is the change lifelong growth process to maturity?

 

[WIP]

On the support side of OSAS there is the Prodigal Son.....welcomed back to his Father's house no questions, no condemnation, no recrimination.....the father cuts off his admission of guilt....a cloak, ring and feast given to him....the father even corrects his other son, who had obeyed his father, for objecting to the celebration.
Either side of OSAS is not so easy to lay to rest......

But it did take an initiated action by the lost, dead son....to return to the father, right?

 

[WIP]

When I read the prodigal son story I read that the son was lost/dead. Can one be lost if he/she was not held or owned first? Can one be dead if he/she was not once alive first?

 

[Nathan]

I have a question that I've been thinking about asking for awhile. In John 1:2 it says to those that received Him, He gave the power to become the sons of God...So apparently, we're not the sons of God just because we're born again and have salvation, but is within our reach if we press forward and pursue it. This thought alone makes me wonder...Are we really born again at the moment that we say the sinners prayer, or is it possible that it comes later?

I know that the popular opinion is that we're saved right then and there. Boom, done deal. But! it also says thatmany honor Him with their lips, but their heart is far from Him. So to me, this might mean that perhaps not all receive salvation at that particular moment? Is there scripture that says, we receive salvation instantly?

This is kind of what I am talking about.

We see in the Bible that we only posses(have) salvation through Faith;

1 Peter 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.


And we know that Faith is;

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.



So, in essence, you do not have control over this salvation. It is kept in heaven for you.

The issue is by Faith we can say "I am saved". This is where I believe OSAS gets their belief. Its true, I can say "I am saved" - although because of the mixup we have seen over this I personally tend to not say it just like that. Because the truth is there is more than that. The more being;

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Salvation is not a "once and done" thing, its a life - more importantly - it is Life!

Before we understand this "life" we have to understand that Christ is the Life. Here is where the rubber meets the road. If Christ is Life, you do not posses Him - He posses you. At least, that's the way you want it.

1 John 1:1-2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—

Just so your not confused that the "life" John talks about here is non other than Jesus;

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

So understanding that Jesus is (the)Life, we understand how this works. Salvation is not a ticket. Its not a thing to be held, figuratively, physically, or spiritually. Salvation is Life. More specifically, eternal life.

This is why in the Garden God said They needed to stop Adam and Eve from "eating" from the Tree of Life. That's a whole nother study, but point being Jesus is this Tree of Life. So Salvation - Life - is given through Jesus. And the reason we see passages talking about "bringing salvation when He comes" or "being held in heaven", we understand that is where Jesus is now.

We also see why this Salvation is important, and how its not a once and done thing. How pompous of us to think that we can be eternal - like God. How prideful is that? Disastrously prideful. We only have eternal life through Christ. Just like our bodies have life because of the blood in us. Take away the blood, and our bodies die. Jesus is the Life that will sustain us through eternity. We will get to freely eat from the Tree of Life in heaven.

So, Salvation received by Faith is indeed instantaneous, but disconnect yourself from that Faith and you disconnect yourself from Salvation.

 

[JLB]

I have a question that I've been thinking about asking for awhile. In John 1:2 it says to those that received Him, He gave the power to become the sons of God...So apparently, we're not the sons of God just because we're born again and have salvation, but is within our reach if we press forward and pursue it. This thought alone makes me wonder...Are we really born again at the moment that we say the sinners prayer, or is it possible that it comes later?

I know that the popular opinion is that we're saved right then and there. Boom, done deal. But! it also says thatmany honor Him with their lips, but their heart is far from Him. So to me, this might mean that perhaps not all receive salvation at that particular moment? Is there scripture that says, we receive salvation instantly?

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34

• We will be sons of God in reality, when we have attained the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

• For now we are sons of God by faith, which means we have the hope of salvation to come, when He returns.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26 KJV


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin,
for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

but is within our reach if we press forward and pursue it.

Paul calls this "pressing forward" and this "pursuing"; perseverance.


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


Paul uses the language associated with faith, to describe this glorious struggle of perseverance.


Faith is the substance of the thing hoped for...


Those who have this faith, have the hope of salvation [the redemption of our body; the resurrection] to come, though it is not seen.




JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Isolated verses shouldn't be used to form an entire doctrine.

That is exactly what is done to give the appearance of scriptural support for the OSAS heresy.