John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[JLB]

I have always come down on the side of OSAS but there is a verse that is troubling:
Acts 3
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal judgment:

Can a saved person blaspheme their salvation away?

Of course.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

we know angels can be seen by humans, and not seen by them. I don't know how that works, but it does.

Paul says there is a physical body and a spiritual body:

"If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44 NASB italics in origianal)

And, apparently, the spiritual body looks like the physical body. That's why disembodied souls/spirits look like the person.

 

[Papa Zoom]

It can be unbelieved away.


19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:19-29


"They" in verse 28 is referring to unbelieving Jews, who are enemies of the Gospel.

The gifts and calling of the Gospel to repent, remain open to them, if they will believe.

The context is a reference to unbelieving Jews who are enemies of the Gospel.


Do you think they have eternal life?

How could unbelievers, enemies of the Gospel, have eternal life?

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have always come down on the side of OSAS but there is a verse that is troubling:
Acts 3
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal judgment:

Can a saved person blaspheme their salvation away?

Yes, a believer can blaspheme his salvation away. That is what the author is talking about in Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB.

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB italics in original)

Note the "by the which he was sanctified" in vs.29. He's talking to believers about trampling on the Son of God, regarding his blood as an unclean thing. And if there is any doubt about them being believers read the very next part of the chapter:

"32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one." (Hebrews 10:32-34 NASB)

 

[Edward]

The thread is John 15:1-6, but I found that verses 7-10 are also very relevant.

John 15:7-10
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.../

John certainly is talking to believers, and if you would notice the "Ifs" in the passage, I believe it becomes very clear. I did believe in OSAS foe quite awhile, but once I began to see what the scriptures said about it, I realized that I had been cherry picking verses that fit in with what I wanted them to say. I wanted to believe in OSAS. Deep down, I knew that it had to agree with all scriptures or it was a false teaching. When I was honest with myself, and quit dismissing scriptures because they didn't fit with what I wanted to believe...I had to realize that OSAS is false.

A couple big things stick out to me. One, where is the fear of God with OSAS? And the verse which says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling...has to mean something and be significant or it wouldn't be in there!

Jesus did quite a bit of warning about us falling away. What's He talking about if OSAS is true? For instance, Matthew 5:13, Matthew 11:6, Matthew 24:12-13, Luke 8:13, John 6:66-67, John 15:6, John 16:1, Revelation 3:11

I found all of those without much study at all. Fast. I know that I can find more with a little more time. All scripture must agree with all other scripture. OSAS is a nice idea, but I suppose that I've been praying too much (ha!) to not be deceived. Because that's sure not what I find with closer examination of my own. You Brothers & Sisters that do believe in OSAS...What are all those scriptures in there for about falling away, if OSAS is true? How do you reconcile them?

I've listened to some well respected Pastors, Brothers & Sisters, and read articles on OSAS and standing alone they sound good, and true. But when I got into the Word for myself and considered the bigger context, OSAS didn't make sense at all. I have a hard time dismissing scriptures. I realized that when I have a problem with God’s word, it is clearly me that must change, not God’s word or interpretation of it. This calls for HUMILITY. I have more faith in the Word than I do my intellect, lol.

 

[Edward]

Oh, and the verse about, and no man can snatch you from my hand? It doesn't say anything about believers who fall away themselves, just that we can't be stolen from Him.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, a believer can blaspheme his salvation away.

Mat 12:31 Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

 

[atpollard]

Acts 3
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal judgment:

Can a saved person blaspheme their salvation away?

I offer the following from the New King James Version:

Matthew 12:22-37

Pharisees Blaspheme the Holy Spirit
Mark 3:22–27; Luke 11:17–23
22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the 4blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by 5Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

Pharisees Commit the Unpardonable Sin
Mark 3:28, 29
31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure 7of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
(Headings and references in original)

From this example, "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" would appear to be the state of heart (and attendant actions) of viewing good as evil and evil as good: a complete rejection of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Strictly my opinion, but this seems a state of heart unlikely for a believer and far more indicative of one reprobate from first to last. Whether or not one can "lose their salvation", it would not seem that "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" is something one would stumble into by a careless accident. It seems a settled and determined opposition to the work of God and a deliberate twisting and rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit.

Pax Christus.

 

[JLB]

You Brothers & Sisters that do believe in OSAS...What are all those scriptures in there for about falling away, if OSAS is true? How do you reconcile them?

Thanks Edward, for you honest sincere heart... No wonder you are God's favorite! :yes


One of the ways I have found in dealing with the folks who believe in the OSAS, that they keep their doctrine going, in the face of so many scriptures that teach the opposite, is they "redefine" biblical words, and their meanings.

One of the other beliefs they promote is: There is no such thing as freewill... Man does not have a freewill to chose.

Another is: People are either predestined to be saved or predestined to be lost. There is no way to change it.

If a person is predestined to go to hell, there is nothing they can do to change their destiny, even if they get believe the Gospel, and are baptized in water and the Holy Spirit, they will still be lost.

This is what excuse they use when a Spirit filled Christian backslides: "They were never saved".

This doctrine leads a person to doubt. How can a person ever know they are saved?

• [The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God]

Can you see how devastating this is to a person, who goes through a time of struggle?


They think that "I must not have ever been saved", "I might as well live it up in this life, because I am predestined to be lost"... instead of hanging in there and continuing to believe in Christ Jesus [overcoming], and never giving up, even though you may be backsliden and living is sin.


Be there and done that, and realized just how weak I was without His grace; the power of His Spirit.

When we neglect the things the bible tells us to do, and associate with the wrong people, in the wrong place doing the wrong thing, we will backslide sooner or later.

It's a hard, pride-breaking lesson, that can work together for your good, if you don't have the mindset set [stronghold] that you must have been predestined to hell, and can never be saved.


Thank you again, for being honest, and not rejecting the truth !



JLB

 

[JLB]

Whether or not one can "loose their salvation", it would not seem that "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" is something one would stumble into by a careless accident. It seems a settled and determined opposition to the work of God and a deliberate twisting and rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit.

Good observation, and insightful.


However, those who blaspheme the Spirit "may" be have been taught in their denomination that "tongues" or healing's" or the gifts of the Spirit are of the devil, since all that has ceased after the last Apostle died [cessation].

Another example is a Christian who falls away, and becomes hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, could Blasphem the Holy Spirit.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Hebrews 3:12-15


Did you know the word "fall away" and "depart from" are the same Greek word?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Did you know the Luke 8:13 and Hebrews 3:12-15 pertain to the same exact subject matter.

• Hebrews is a legal argument showing who Christ is and comparing the law of Moses, the High Priest, and those things, so that the believing Jews would have the truth they needed to stand when persecution comes, and a warning to those who turn away and go back to the law of Moses.

A Christian believer who turns away, departs from, or falls away from Christ under persecution from unbelieving Jews, who are in a religion who rejects Jesus as Messiah, can not be brought to repentance again.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6







JLB

 

[WIP]

Oh, and the verse about, and no man can snatch you from my hand? It doesn't say anything about believers who fall away themselves, just that we can't be stolen from Him.

The counter-argument to this that I've heard is that we can't fall away ourselves because that would be us snatching ourselves out of His hand.
I don't necessarily believe this but just sharing what I've heard.

 

[Nathan]

The counter-argument to this that I've heard is that we can't fall away ourselves because that would be us snatching ourselves out of His hand.
I don't necessarily believe this but just sharing what I've heard.

Always got to be something.....

 

[JLB]

The counter-argument to this that I've heard is that we can't fall away ourselves because that would be us snatching ourselves out of His hand.
I don't necessarily believe this but just sharing what I've heard.

Yeah, Iv'e heard that one, also.

There always seems to be the underlying current in these types of responses, that man has no free will to choose between right and wrong, or good and evil.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

I think the problem people have, with falling away/departing from the Faith, is how people cannot "come back". I think that it comes from a lack of understanding what the Faith is to begin with, and what falling away/departing from that is.

If you look at Faith as just a belief that Jesus was a man who died on a cross and then was risen again - then it is hard to understand why departing from the Faith is such a big deal to begin with, much less why a person could not "believe" it again.

However, if you understand the Faith as God sending His Son, who died on the cross for your sins because you could never do anything to gain favor with God, and then was risen again to not only show you there is life after earthly death - but an eternal life and kingdom to go to......our great hope.......

Then, you would understand that if you really believed all of that by faith, and you turned away from that as in saying you no longer believe Jesus is sufficient for your sins....then it would be impossible to come to a point of repentance - belief in the former - again. Not impossible as in God would not allow it, but rather impossible because the human soul does not work like that.

To turn away from something so wonderful(precisely why the writer of Hebrews uses the word "tasted") would make a persons heart so hard that to believe Jesus paid for their sins *again, would not be rational as it would be like crucifying Jesus again - because on the cross, the purpose of the crucifixion, was to pay for our sins. If a person willingly decided to forgo that forgiveness, after truly understanding their inability to have it, then there is no reason why they would want it again.

Some think that this falling away is just a big sin, or some other sort of human emotion, or worse yet a slip and fall that no one saw coming. It quite simply was a warning to those believers who were constantly trying to get those who had indeed - for some reason or another - decided they did not need Jesus to be their savior, to come back into fellowship/Faith. It was not directed as a "warning" to the believers who were reading it to be careful of becoming one of them. That is why the writer followed it up with this statement to the readers;

Hebrews 6:9
Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

 

[Edward]

The counter-argument to this that I've heard is that we can't fall away ourselves because that would be us snatching ourselves out of His hand.
I don't necessarily believe this but just sharing what I've heard.

That doesn't make sense to me. My earthly dad used to be Christian, but after my mom wanted a divorce and left him...for some reason he blamed it on Jesus and left the faith. He wasn't snatched from Jesus's hand, and it's a big stretch to think that he's not lost his salvation. He walked away from it, and God does not force salvation on anyone.

Now I don't think that Jesus made her leave. So he's got it mixed up in his mind somehow. That's usually the case anyhow,. So I believe that what we have in this case could be accurately described as a, falling away.

 

[JLB]

I think the problem people have, with falling away/departing from the Faith, is how people cannot "come back". I think that it comes from a lack of understanding what the Faith is to begin with, and what falling away/departing from that is.

If you look at Faith as just a belief that Jesus was a man who died on a cross and then was risen again - then it is hard to understand why departing from the Faith is such a big deal to begin with, much less why a person could not "believe" it again.

However, if you understand the Faith as God sending His Son, who died on the cross for your sins because you could never do anything to gain favor with God, and then was risen again to not only show you there is life after earthly death - but an eternal life and kingdom to go to......our great hope.......

Then, you would understand that if you really believed all of that by faith, and you turned away from that as in saying you no longer believe Jesus is sufficient for your sins....then it would be impossible to come to a point of repentance - belief in the former - again. Not impossible as in God would not allow it, but rather impossible because the human soul does not work like that.

To turn away from something so wonderful(precisely why the writer of Hebrews uses the word "tasted") would make a persons heart so hard that to believe Jesus paid for their sins *again, would not be rational as it would be like crucifying Jesus again - because on the cross, the purpose of the crucifixion, was to pay for our sins. If a person willingly decided to forgo that forgiveness, after truly understanding their inability to have it, then there is no reason why they would want it again.

Some think that this falling away is just a big sin, or some other sort of human emotion, or worse yet a slip and fall that no one saw coming. It quite simply was a warning to those believers who were constantly trying to get those who had indeed - for some reason or another - decided they did not need Jesus to be their savior to come back into fellowship/Faith. It was not directed as a "warning" to the believers who were reading it to be careful of becoming one of them. That is why the writer followed it up with this statement to the readers;

Hebrews 6:9
Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

You make some good points here Nathan.

I tend to agree with many things you have said.


JLB

 

[Nathan]

You make some good points here Nathan.

I tend to agree with many things you have said.


JLB

There was one thing I would change in that post. I said;

It quite simply was a warning to those believers who were constantly trying to get those who had indeed - for some reason or another - decided they did not need Jesus to be their savior, to come back into fellowship/Faith.

I would take out the some "reason or another". There really is only one reason that a believer would choose to leave the faith, at that is sin. Its seems complicated, but its not. As I stated, just "a" sin, or even a bunch of sinful acts, is not what separates us anymore than a life of right living unites us.

But a continual sin, in the life of a believer, will bring that person to the point where they indeed question the need for Jesus, and worse yet the ability of the Spirit to save. That is why Jesus said ALL sin will be forgiven men, but the blaspheme of the Spirit. To blaspheme the Spirit would be to say He is incapable of doing what He does - which is drawing us to Christ.

Its interesting to see that the root words of the word blaspheme are;

to hurt, harm, or injure & fame, report

Oh how much it must hurt God when His creation willfully decides to not want what He gives.

Truth be told. I came close to this point one time. After coming to Faith, I fell into a life of sin. At one moment I found myself starting to question God's ability to forgive me. As if, that sin I had committed then was any worse(in His eyes) than the life of sin I had lead before Faith. It was at that point I understood what this passage meant, along with all the other warnings in the Bible.

Sin leads a person down this path. But the point at which one leaves the path is the point at which ones purposefully and willfully decides God is not able to save them, or cover their sin. That is why it is imperative to not live a life of sin, or to even take sin lightly as a believer. No, your not going to become "lost" just because you committed that one sin or another, but sin after sin after sin will begin to take its toll and left unchecked, sin always leads to death.

Needless to say, while I would not say it was God's "plan" that those sins in my life took place, or that I found myself at that point of questioning, I do believe in that moment He choose to teach me something I might not have otherwise ever understood.

So, all of that to say, take out the "reason or another" from my original post and read it like this;

It quite simply was a warning to those believers, who were constantly trying to get those who had indeed decided they did not need Jesus to be their savior, to come back into fellowship/Faith.

 

[Jim Parker]

The counter-argument to this that I've heard is that we can't fall away ourselves because that would be us snatching ourselves out of His hand.

Being snatched out of His hand requires that a third party (devil?) do the snatching of the believer. (2nd party)
Jumping out of His hand is an entirely different action which does not require a 3rd party. An ex-believer can do that all on his own.

 

[Jim Parker]

From this example, "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" would appear to be the state of heart (and attendant actions) of viewing good as evil and evil as good: a complete rejection of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Strictly my opinion, but this seems a state of heart unlikely for a believer and far more indicative of one reprobate from first to last. Whether or not one can "lose their salvation", it would not seem that "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" is something one would stumble into by a careless accident. It seems a settled and determined opposition to the work of God and a deliberate twisting and rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit.

:amen

 

[Papa Zoom]

http://www.str.org/articles/eternal-security-cheap-grace-and-free-will#.WLewiDw76Ee

I fully agree with this guy. And John Piper and John MacArthur and hundreds of other theologians. You can't lost the gift of salvation. It's a gift. Forgiveness is totally on Gods terms. Isolated verses shouldn't be used to form an entire doctrine. When god makes a promise He keeps it. The above article is clear thinking on the topic. Many won't agree. It's worth reading.