John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[GodsGrace]

That "I" shall lose none...That's on Him not us. Care to Comment?

Hi Randy,
Yes,,,I'd like to comment.

Jesus shall lose nothing.....
Unless we want to believe that after salvation we lose our free will,,,,
this statement of Jesus in John 6:39 can be understood to mean that Jesus will not turn away anyone who is given to Him and He will raise up anyone that is given to Him with the condition that they remain with Him --- and this is a matter of free will.

In verse 27 Jesus tell those following Him that they should not work for food that does not endure and perishes,,,
but for food which endures. (our faith...our good works....our belief in God).
John 6:27
27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

Jesus said in Matthew 24 that those that endure to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:10-13
10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


We can indeed trust that Jesus will give to us eternal life if we continue in the faith till our end.
Salvation is not a one time event - but a life-long journey in which we abive/live in Jesus.

§We are assured our salvation as long as we abide in Christ.

So it is not Jesus who will lose anyone....
but some persons might, and indeed have, decided to leave Christ and return to the world,,,this through their free will.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

You've posted a very wonderful idea,,,
unfortunately, I read some on these Forums making statements such as:
"it is not necessary to obey God".

If a person does NOT obey God...he is sinning and sinning willfully.
A person cannot be disobedient to God and remain saved.

So we agree 50%.
I'd say it this way:
No one who wishes to abide with Jesus will continue to sin because God cannot live with sinning.
I say CONTINUE to sin because we must distinguish between sinning, which everyone does, and living in sin....which will lead to death. 1 John 3:9 DO NOT PRACTICE SINNING.

I believe that if this were taught, as it was in the early church, we wouldn't have to hear Christian persons proclaim that obedience to God is not necessary. The idea of OSAS (no matter what one does he is still saved) is a poisonous idea that will lead many to forfeit their salvation.

It is those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey Gods commandments. So, faith with the fruit of obedience.
What fulfills all the law? Paul wrote "Love"

Agreed.

In Christ there is no sin. Can one who has no sin be considered unrighteous in any manner?

Not sure what you mean.
I do hear this a lot.
In Christ there is no sin...
but in man there is.

Can't be deceived away. Do not continue to sin.

7My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish NO ONE will snatch them from my hand.

Some who claims to know Him but does not do what He says is a liar.

Amen to that!

In the most sinful of environments.
Yet I will preserve 7,000 others in Israel who have never bowed down to Baal or kissed him!”

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

A judgment already made as in appointed to eternal life.
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

All those the Father gives to Jesus He will raise on the last day.

I stating those born of God will love others. The fruit of obedience. They belong to God.

I'm not preaching OSAS. As its not directly taught in the NT. But I do consider what is in the NT.

Clearly many warnings are given. But grace is grace.

Grace is grace.
Until a person doesn't want it anymore and rejects it.

 

[JLB]

Those who don't abide in Him do not belong to Him.

If a person is in Christ then they are saved.

They are joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


Jesus plainly warned them to remain in Him.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


If a person is in Christ, then they are no longer in Christ, then they no longer have eternal life, which is only found in Christ.


In Christ = eternal life
Removed from Christ = no longer have eternal life in Christ.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:12

 

[Randy]

Hi Randy,
Yes,,,I'd like to comment.

Jesus shall lose nothing.....
Unless we want to believe that after salvation we lose our free will,,,,
this statement of Jesus in John 6:39 can be understood to mean that Jesus will not turn away anyone who is given to Him and He will raise up anyone that is given to Him with the condition that they remain with Him --- and this is a matter of free will.

I disagree He is involved in not losing any the Father gives Him. He has to be for we have no defense against the spirits of disobedience. So you think on our own apart from temptation we give up? Highly unlikely.
He keeps us safe from the evil one. The one who tries to snatch us from His hands.
I believe He is capable.
Jude 1:24
How do we lose Him apart from sinning?
1John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

In verse 27 Jesus tell those following Him that they should not work for food that does not endure and perishes,,,
but for food which endures. (our faith...our good works....our belief in God).
John 6:27
27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

Jesus said in Matthew 24 that those that endure to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:10-13
10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


We can indeed trust that Jesus will give to us eternal life if we continue in the faith till our end.
Salvation is not a one time event - but a life-long journey in which we abive/live in Jesus.

§We are assured our salvation as long as we abide in Christ.

So it is not Jesus who will lose anyone....
but some persons might, and indeed have, decided to leave Christ and return to the world,,,this through their free will.



You've posted a very wonderful idea,,,
unfortunately, I read some on these Forums making statements such as:
"it is not necessary to obey God".

If a person does NOT obey God...he is sinning and sinning willfully.
A person cannot be disobedient to God and remain saved.

The very thing the one born of God CANNOT do BECAUSE God seed remains in them.
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

It must be willful denial of Him. How can one who has the Spirit of Christ in them not know He lives?
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself

So we agree 50%.
I'd say it this way:
No one who wishes to abide with Jesus will continue to sin because God cannot live with sinning.
I say CONTINUE to sin because we must distinguish between sinning, which everyone does, and living in sin....which will lead to death. 1 John 3:9 DO NOT PRACTICE SINNING.

There was a distinction made for those born of God by John.

And for those who claim to know Christ and do not do what He states John calls them liars.

I believe that if this were taught, as it was in the early church, we wouldn't have to hear Christian persons proclaim that obedience to God is not necessary. The idea of OSAS (no matter what one does he is still saved) is a poisonous idea that will lead many to forfeit their salvation.

It is necessary and I believe God instills the fear of God in us. He delights in those who fear Him.
Love does no harm to one's neighbor and fulfills the whole law.
Saints as defined in REV. Those who hold to the testimony of Jesus AND obey Gods commands.
The one born of God knows they are not free to sin.

Anyone willfully sinning after coming to the knowledge of the truth should expect judgment.

Agreed.

Not sure what you mean.
I do hear this a lot.
In Christ there is no sin...
but in man there is.

Amen to that!

Grace is grace.
Until a person doesn't want it anymore and rejects it.

Christ and the believer are one. There is no sin for those joined to Him in spirit. Our sins have been taken away.
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

 

[Randy]

If a person is in Christ then they are saved.

They are joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


Jesus plainly warned them to remain in Him.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


If a person is in Christ, then they are no longer in Christ, then they no longer have eternal life, which is only found in Christ.


In Christ = eternal life
Removed from Christ = no longer have eternal life in Christ.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:12

If one is in Christ and God keeps them safe who cause them to give-up? They have to know there are eternal consequences at stake. They would have to be completely mad to leave Him on their own. They WONT.

 

[JLB]

Christ and the believer are one. There is no sin for those joined to Him in spirit. Our sins have been taken away.
But you know that he appeared so that he migh

Our sins are taken away if we confess our sins.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


Also, remember we must forgive others if we want to be forgiven.

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15


If we hold unforgiveness then our sin remains.

 

[Randy]

Our sins are taken away if we confess our sins.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


Also, remember we must forgive others if we want to be forgiven.

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15


If we hold unforgiveness then our sin remains.

They are only taken away once. -born of God
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

In Him is no sin.

He keeps us safe from the evil one. So you think the one born again just gives up knowing the eternal consequences at stake? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

 

[JLB]

They are only taken away once. -born of God
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

In Him is no sin.

He keeps us safe from the evil one. So you think the one born again just gives up knowing the eternal consequences at stake? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

Please post the scripture where we have no need to confess our sins.

All our past sins are forgiven. However since then we have sinned.

Jesus Christ died once for all people to pay the price for all people to have their sins taken away.

The way we obtain the forgiveness of our sins is by confessing them.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Also.

Also, remember we must forgive others if we want to be forgiven.

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15


If we hold unforgiveness then our sin remains.

 

[JLB]

In Him is no sin.

Yes.

What about you and I?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

 

[JLB]

If one is in Christ and God keeps them safe who cause them to give-up? They have to know there are eternal consequences at stake. They would have to be completely mad to leave Him on their own. They WONT.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

Are you born again; born of God?

If so you certainly must learn to keep yourself from sin, so that the wicked one does not have access to you.

That is why we are to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walking according to the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

 

[Randy]

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

Are you born again; born of God?

If so you certainly must learn to keep yourself from sin, so that the wicked one does not have access to you.

That is why we are to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walking according to the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth him, and the evil one toucheth him not.
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

1 John 5:18 Greek Text Analysis

If one does not have the Spirit of Christ in them they don't belong to Him. We are discussing those born of God.

God keeps them safe from the evil one. Who is it then that causes them to give up? They must deny Christ to be denied by Christ at that point. How can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and NOT know Jesus lives? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

 

[Randy]

Yes.

What about you and I?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

In Him is continuous we are covered by the blood and as shown to deaf ears the one born of God CANNOT continue to sin. BECAUSE Gods seed remains in them. NOT MY WORDS.

 

[Randy]

Please post the scripture where we have no need to confess our sins.

All our past sins are forgiven. However since then we have sinned.

Jesus Christ died once for all people to pay the price for all people to have their sins taken away.

The way we obtain the forgiveness of our sins is by confessing them.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Also.

Also, remember we must forgive others if we want to be forgiven.

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15


If we hold unforgiveness then our sin remains.

After coming to Christ, the one born of God does not and cannot continue to sin AS I READ.

If someone keeps sinning, they are a slave to sin and no slave has a permanent place in a family. It's a sign of no reconciliation.

What sins are you confessing?
My conscience is clear before God and I keep it that way.

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree He is involved in not losing any the Father gives Him. He has to be for we have no defense against the spirits of disobedience. So you think on our own apart from temptation we give up? Highly unlikely.
He keeps us safe from the evil one. The one who tries to snatch us from His hands.
I believe He is capable.
Jude 1:24
How do we lose Him apart from sinning?
1John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.




The very thing the one born of God CANNOT do BECAUSE God seed remains in them.
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

It must be willful denial of Him. How can one who has the Spirit of Christ in them not know He lives?
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself

There was a distinction made for those born of God by John.

And for those who claim to know Christ and do not do what He states John calls them liars.

It is necessary and I believe God instills the fear of God in us. He delights in those who fear Him.
Love does no harm to one's neighbor and fulfills the whole law.
Saints as defined in REV. Those who hold to the testimony of Jesus AND obey Gods commands.
The one born of God knows they are not free to sin.

Anyone willfully sinning after coming to the knowledge of the truth should expect judgment.



Christ and the believer are one. There is no sin for those joined to Him in spirit. Our sins have been taken away.
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

I read the above carefully and believe that we basically agree but diagree on the fact that a person can walk away from God.

Also, you're right...if someone SAYS they're Christian but they do not follow Jesus and His commandments,,,,they certainly will not remain Christian for long.

Here is something someone on a different forum stated:

"Anyway, if you'd read through my posts in this thread, you'd know that I've already thoroughly answered this question. In short: No it is not necessary to obey God in order to remain His perfectly redeemed, justified, sanctified and adopted child...

The person above believes Himself to be a born again Christian.
He posts some verses that we could all agree with.
He also posts some verses that he THINKS say that salvation cannot be forfeited.

You're saying something different than those that speak as the one above.

So then I'd have to ask,,,if a Christian cannot sin, why is provision for sinning made in the NT?
1 John 1:7-10
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;


You posted a verse above which needs to be explained:
2 Timothy 2:
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.

Notice what it states:

Verse 11 If we died with Him, we will also live with Him. (dying to ourself and baptism).

Verse 12 IF WE ENDURE....we will also reign with Him. We must endure, just as the NT teaches.

Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


IF we endure.....
this means it is possible NOT to endure.
It is Jesus and Paul stating this.

Verse 13 God will remain faithful to His promises. His promise is that He will give life everlasting to whoever wants it. His promise is that HE will NOT forsake us...but we are free to leave him. His promise is that He will guide us and help us by the power of the Holy Spirit so that we can remain IN Him.

God desires a relationship with each one of us....
He will keep His promises.

But the relationship depends also on our keeping ourselves close to God and His commandments.

So, what's the difference between us?
In the end,,,do you really believe that a person cannot forfeith their salvation?
Even though there are so many warnings in scripture?

I admire that you do state that a born again person should not sin....
this is a big improvement from hearing those that state that one can do anything after salvation and still be saved.
This is a very dangerous statement for any Christian to make.

 

[GodsGrace]

After coming to Christ, the one born of God does not and cannot continue to sin AS I READ.

If someone keeps sinning, they are a slave to sin and no slave has a permanent place in a family. It's a sign of no reconciliation.

What sins are you confessing?
My conscience is clear before God and I keep it that way.

Just fell on this when posting reply.
Are you saying that you never sin??

 

[Randy]

Yes.

What about you and I?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

Are you and Christ not ONE? If so you are in HIM and HE is in you. There is no sin. It's been removed. You are CLEAN.

I would think the need for forgiveness starts with repentance. Once forgiven and born of God one should not be living a life of sin. Where they would need to continuously ask for forgiveness. Thats a sign they don't know Him. If your born of God, you are clean.

I can't imagine the

Just fell on this when posting reply.
Are you saying that you never sin??

Depends how much one wants to sift in defining sin.
I keep these except the sabbath as in the law (no work with even meals prepared in advance) As well as avoiding sexual immorality. My conscience is clear before God. I can't imagine the Apostles continuing to sin and having to continuing to confess such sin. I think they looked back at their former lives as compared to the new creation in Christ and wrote likewise. I have a very healthy fear of God. I love Him.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

Isn't this protection from above? As in keeping one safe from the evil one.
The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you and Christ not ONE? If so you are in HIM and HE is in you. There is no sin. It's been removed. You are CLEAN.

I would think the need for forgiveness starts with repentance. Once forgiven and born of God one should not be living a life of sin. Where they would need to continuously ask for forgiveness. Thats a sign they don't know Him. If your born of God, you are clean.

I can't imagine the

Depends how much one wants to sift in defining sin.
I keep these except the sabbath as in the law (no work with even meals prepared in advance) As well as avoiding sexual immorality. My conscience is clear before God. I can't imagine the Apostles continuing to sin and having to continuing to confess such sin. I think they looked back at their former lives as compared to the new creation in Christ and wrote likewise. I have a very healthy fear of God. I love Him.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

Isn't this protection from above? As in keeping one safe from the evil one.
The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them.

Apparently you're a perfect human and don't require forgiveness.

I, OTOH, am a flawed human being in need of the Holy Spirit to keep me.
Also, those 10 commandments up there are pretty easy to follow, unless, of course, if the heart is involved.

Also, I'd like to say that there are many other sins that are not listed and which most probably annoy God, our creator.

So, yes, I think I sin every day and I think I need to ask God's forgiveness.

This is because I'm acutely aware of how sensitive sin is to God.
I'm aware that we probably sin quite a few times a day.

As to being safe...yes, we are safe because God keeps us safe if we allow Him to.

I fear that those such as yourself believe there are only 10 sins.
Maybe not,,,since you don't make clear what you believe.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Those who do not remain in Christ are no longer saved.
There is no salvation outside of Christ.

In Christ = saved
No longer in Christ = no longer saved


Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB, I understand your ideas about Jesus' words, but how can you be sure that all believers are the people "abiding in him"? Isn't it possible that he is talking about the larger people of God?

The reason I ask is that Psalm 80:8-16 seems to give the background to Jesus' words:

Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!

Since Jesus says that he is the TRUE vine, just as he says that he is the GOOD Shepherd, the vine in Psalm 80 is obviously the whole people of God, including believers, who are often a remnant or minority. As a result, unfruitful professing believers are in real danger.

As a result, it seems to me that being detached from the vine doesn't have anything to do with losing our salvation, but it does have to do with unfruitful lives in the visible church.

 

[Randy]

I read the above carefully and believe that we basically agree but diagree on the fact that a person can walk away from God.

Also, you're right...if someone SAYS they're Christian but they do not follow Jesus and His commandments,,,,they certainly will not remain Christian for long.

Here is something someone on a different forum stated:

"Anyway, if you'd read through my posts in this thread, you'd know that I've already thoroughly answered this question. In short: No it is not necessary to obey God in order to remain His perfectly redeemed, justified, sanctified and adopted child...

The person above believes Himself to be a born again Christian.
He posts some verses that we could all agree with.
He also posts some verses that he THINKS say that salvation cannot be forfeited.

You're saying something different than those that speak as the one above.

So then I'd have to ask,,,if a Christian cannot sin, why is provision for sinning made in the NT?
1 John 1:7-10
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;


You posted a verse above which needs to be explained:
2 Timothy 2:
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.

Notice what it states:

Verse 11 If we died with Him, we will also live with Him. (dying to ourself and baptism).

Verse 12 IF WE ENDURE....we will also reign with Him. We must endure, just as the NT teaches.

Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


IF we endure.....
this means it is possible NOT to endure.
It is Jesus and Paul stating this.

Verse 13 God will remain faithful to His promises. His promise is that He will give life everlasting to whoever wants it. His promise is that HE will NOT forsake us...but we are free to leave him. His promise is that He will guide us and help us by the power of the Holy Spirit so that we can remain IN Him.

God desires a relationship with each one of us....
He will keep His promises.

But the relationship depends also on our keeping ourselves close to God and His commandments.

So, what's the difference between us?
In the end,,,do you really believe that a person cannot forfeith their salvation?
Even though there are so many warnings in scripture?

I admire that you do state that a born again person should not sin....
this is a big improvement from hearing those that state that one can do anything after salvation and still be saved.
This is a very dangerous statement for any Christian to make.

I believe we are chosen not meaning prechosen. Children don't start with a corrupt mind. They may grow into later but none of us start that way. Then can believe in what their parents teach them even if its Santa or whether or not the parents are mistaken or not. They can believe in Jesus and He sees their faith in Him and responds.

And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven

“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
(Those born of God should/would know this as well as the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent)
68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Do this work and you will live and never die.
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB, I understand your ideas about Jesus' words, but how can you be sure that all believers are the people "abiding in him"? Isn't it possible that he is talking about the larger people of God?

The reason I ask is that Psalm 80:8-16 seems to give the background to Jesus' words:

Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!

Since Jesus says that he is the TRUE vine, just as he says that he is the GOOD Shepherd, the vine in Psalm 80 is obviously the whole people of God, including believers, who are often a remnant or minority. As a result, unfruitful professing believers are in real danger.

As a result, it seems to me that being detached from the vine doesn't have anything to do with losing our salvation, but it does have to do with unfruitful lives in the visible church.

Do you not enjoy speaking to the female part of humanity?

You've stated above that unfruitful professing believers are in real danger.
Yes,,, this is what Jesus has stated in John 15:1-6

Does cutting off branches not sound like something or someone is being CUT OFF?
Does burning the cut off branches not sound like something or someone is being burned due to unfruitfulness?

Why fight the obvious words of Jesus?
Why do some navigate through muddied waters because the clear water Jesus presents does not suit them?

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
From the above we learn:
1. Jesus is the vine.

2. The Father is the vinedresser.

3. Father takes away braches from the vine that do not bear fruit.
Jesus is the vine...so the Father is TAKING AWAY branches from the vine that do not bear fruit.
IOW..
They were in the vine.
But now they've been cut off and are NO LONGER in the vine.
They've lost something by being cut off....
what do YOU believe it is?

4. And look....the Father wants so much fruit that He PRUNES branches that ARE producing fruit,
so that they can produce even more!

This brings to mind the parable of the talents:

Matthew 25:19-26
19 "Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.
20 "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
21 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
22 "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe we are chosen not meaning prechosen. Children don't start with a corrupt mind. They may grow into later but none of us start that way. Then can believe in what their parents teach them even if its Santa or whether or not the parents are mistaken or not. They can believe in Jesus and He sees their faith in Him and responds.

And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven

“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
(Those born of God should/would know this as well as the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent)
68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Do this work and you will live and never die.
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Right.
And what does BELIEVE mean?

And with that I bid you a good evening!
Tomorrow.