John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[tdidymas]

Just for my own clarity, does having eternal life in hell also mean saved?

No. Saved means rescued from condemnation. "In hell" means away from God's blessing and under God's curse. Perpetual existence doesn't mean eternal life. "Life" in many places of the NT is a figure for eternal bliss in the blessing of God.

 

[tdidymas]

I don't know if I have the Holy Spirit, you decide, here is a story from my life.

There was a person who was dying from covid, and I prayed for him with a short prayer, the next moment he said: I am healed.

The healing was between him and God, though it is possible your faith was helping. But miracles does not prove the indwelling of the Spirit. Jesus said, "the tree is known by its fruit." Gal. 5:19-21 specifies how to know we have the indwelling Spirit, by the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. But we also know it is by faith, as all the apostles testify. We might have an experience and/or ongoing "inner witness" wherein Paul wrote "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." So if you trust Christ with all your heart, you can be sure you belong to Him. It's certainly not by performing miracles, since Judas did the same but didn't belong to Christ.

 

[George1]

The healing was between him and God, though it is possible your faith was helping. But miracles does not prove the indwelling of the Spirit. Jesus said, "the tree is known by its fruit." Gal. 5:19-21 specifies how to know we have the indwelling Spirit, by the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. But we also know it is by faith, as all the apostles testify. We might have an experience and/or ongoing "inner witness" wherein Paul wrote "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." So if you trust Christ with all your heart, you can be sure you belong to Him. It's certainly not by performing miracles, since Judas did the same but didn't belong to Christ.

In the Bible is not described even one miracle performed by Judas Iscariot. Also I have the Holy Spirit since I was 3 or 4 years old when I believed, this time I got change of heart toward Christ, and my only desire for Heaven was there for all childhood.

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree He is involved in not losing any the Father gives Him. He has to be for we have no defense against the spirits of disobedience. So you think on our own apart from temptation we give up? Highly unlikely.
He keeps us safe from the evil one. The one who tries to snatch us from His hands.
I believe He is capable.
Jude 1:24
How do we lose Him apart from sinning?
1John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

What's happening to the Theology Forum?
How about posting the scripture you mentioned?
Please post Jude 1:24 and 1 John 5:8 since I know that NO writer of the NT assured believers of their salvation.

Do you believe we lose our free will to sin after we become born again?
Are you one of these Christians that believes they never sin?

IF the verses you mentioned assure us of our salvation...(which I don't know since you didn't post them)
then why does Paul state that we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

Philippians 2:11-12
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

The very thing the one born of God CANNOT do BECAUSE God seed remains in them.
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

It must be willful denial of Him. How can one who has the Spirit of Christ in them not know He lives?
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself

There was a distinction made for those born of God by John.

And for those who claim to know Christ and do not do what He states John calls them liars.

OK
So you agree that we must DO what Jesus taught.
Then you post scripture without defining it.....

You posted:
2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.
If you read it carefully, you'll see that if we deny Jesus, He will also deny us.
We can deny Jesus by denying Him or by disobeying Him.
Disobedience is the denial of the Lordship of Jesus.
Jesus said:
Luke 6:46
46 "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

It is necessary and I believe God instills the fear of God in us. He delights in those who fear Him.
Love does no harm to one's neighbor and fulfills the whole law.
Saints as defined in REV. Those who hold to the testimony of Jesus AND obey Gods commands.
The one born of God knows they are not free to sin.

Anyone willfully sinning after coming to the knowledge of the truth should expect judgment.

Agreed.
So why are we debating?

Christ and the believer are one. There is no sin for those joined to Him in spirit. Our sins have been taken away.
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

So you believe that a born again Christian cannot sin?
Please clarify your position because this is something I'm not interested in debating.

 

[GodsGrace]

If we become faithless He remain faithful as He cannot disown Himself
If we deny Him He will deny us.

This suggests the writer distinguished the two.

Let's look at the scripture.

2 Timothy 2:11:13 Being faithless and denying God is the same and will have the same outcome.
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.

IF we endure, we will reign.
If we DENY Him,,,,
He will DENY us....

IF we are faithless,,,,,God will always be faithful to Himself.

If we have no faith...
We have, in effect, denied God.

Whether this happens BEFORE salvation or after salvation is of no revelence.

Having no faith is denial of God.

But God will always remain faithful to HIS word.
What God states will ALWAYS be true.


God keeps HIS promises even when we DO NOT KEEP ours.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think no one has been to heaven. This you saying.
Where in Bible this means to die?
So you can say what Jesus meant without being Jesus.
Elijah and Enoch was taken to heaven alive too, yet Jesus said no one ever ascended to heaven, he have to be judged first.

Of course we have to be judged first!
Those who go to heaven will go to heaven and those who do not go to heaven will not go to heaven.

It sounded in your post that you believe that no one is going to heaven after death.
Some persons believe in soul sleep.

Soul sleep is not taught in the New Testament.

 

[George1]

Of course we have to be judged first!
Those who go to heaven will go to heaven and those who do not go to heaven will not go to heaven.

It sounded in your post that you believe that no one is going to heaven after death.
Some persons believe in soul sleep.

Soul sleep is not taught in the New Testament.

I believe in Sheol (the grave, state of dead). A place where all dead going, except very rarely the saints, that not taste death (Sheol) that Jesus said. They don't have food, they can't visit earth and they have Guardian Spirits that limit their free will. I think Catholicism call it Purgatory, and Orthodoxy Hell. It is temporary, because there they are tormented until Jesus return. And some avoid it, with spiritual practice on earth that is against Christ, but then they make pacts with the devils and cannot be saved when Jesus return, to temporary avoid Hell, they put there themselves permanently.

 

[JLB]

I believe in Sheol (the grave, state of dead). A place where all dead going, except very rarely the saints, that not taste death (Sheol) that Jesus said. They don't have food, they can't visit earth and they have Guardian Spirits that limit their free will. I think Catholicism call it Purgatory, and Orthodoxy Hell. It is temporary, because there they are tormented until Jesus return. And some avoid it, with spiritual practice on earth that is against Christ, but then they make pacts with the devils and cannot be saved when Jesus return, to temporary avoid Hell, they put there themselves permanently.

Hi George,

Thanks for sharing.

Here is one of the ways Jesus taught us to avoid hell.

• Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Randy]

Let's look at the scripture.

2 Timothy 2:11:13 Being faithless and denying God is the same and will have the same outcome.
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.

IF we endure, we will reign.
If we DENY Him,,,,
He will DENY us....

IF we are faithless,,,,,God will always be faithful to Himself.

If we have no faith...
We have, in effect, denied God.

Whether this happens BEFORE salvation or after salvation is of no revelence.

Having no faith is denial of God.

But God will always remain faithful to HIS word.
What God states will ALWAYS be true.


God keeps HIS promises even when we DO NOT KEEP ours.

We will have differences of opinion for those sealed in Christ by the Spirit vs those who aren't. Paul is not stating Christ will remain faithful to Himself which is self-evident to all who belong to God.

Those who know really know Christ would know this.
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.

Can not and will not.
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

You don't start with the Spirit and finish with good works. Its grace through faith.

You love one another as Christ loved. That fulfills all the law. Love does no harm to one's neighbor.

We who are sealed in Christ by the Spirit have been chosen by God. We have been appointed to eternal life by God. And He will remain faithful to that appointment.

Jesus stated Never perish which can't be true in your theology. For you believe one who has been sealed in Christ by the Spirit and are one with Him could possibly perish if they change their mind which would be madness as they would know and believe Jesus alone is life without end and apart from Him is death without end.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand

I don't view this as OSAS I view it as grace.
Paul who was set apart at birth before he did good or bad knew about grace and never backed down.

God has the ability to keep us safe in the most sinful of environments.
And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Can one really lose their salvation? If asalvation is indeed a gift as the scriptures say then the only way to lose a gift unless you misplaced it is to give it away willingly at least this is how I always have understood it

IIs it a gift or is it not? I have seen plenty including me backslide and some have given up their faith but that is a willing choice, and if sin could make one lose their salvation what was the point of the blood that was shed? was it not good enough? does it not cover us and free us from the power of sin?

 

[George1]

Can one really lose their salvation? If asalvation is indeed a gift as the scriptures say then the only way to lose a gift unless you misplaced it is to give it away willingly at least this is how I always have understood it

IIs it a gift or is it not? I have seen plenty including me backslide and some have given up their faith but that is a willing choice, and if sin could make one lose their salvation what was the point of the blood that was shed? was it not good enough? does it not cover us and free us from the power of sin?

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

I'm sorry forgive my ignorance but I don't understand the point your trying to make

 

[George1]

Hi George,

Thanks for sharing.

Here is one of the ways Jesus taught us to avoid hell.

• Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

It is about the ten commandments, this is how one goes to Heaven. Those verses reflect the ten commandments as well.

 

[tdidymas]

I'm sorry forgive my ignorance but I don't understand the point your trying to make

Legalists don't know what they are talking about, according to the writings of Paul (the apostle). They deny that salvation and eternal life is a free gift, and claim that to be saved you have to obey the 10 Commandments; and it's because they don't understand the nature of grace. Eph. 2:8-10 explains it in a few words.

But the reason they don't believe it is because they fear antinomianism, which Jude and others labelled "licentiousness." They reason that if salvation is a free gift given by the grace of God, then they can commit any sin and still be saved. Paul described that reasoning in Rom. 3:8 this way: "Some slanderously claim that I teach 'let us do evil that good may come,'" and he emphatically condemns such reasoning.

But 1 Pet. 1:5 says that we are kept by the power of God, not by ourselves, our "free will," our own determination, our obedience to the 10 Commandments, or whatever else they think of with legalistic reasoning. But Paul wrote to true believers that "God is in you to will and do His good pleasure." This means that eternal life is a free gift, loving God is a free gift, holiness is a free gift, and every other spiritual blessing the Bible talks about, which is our motivation for loving God in every aspect of our lives. What Jesus did on the cross is sufficient to make our salvation (and spiritual healing) a free gift. Therefore, to those who "have it," it cannot be lost. Better words are: for those who "become sons of God."

 

[George1]

Legalists don't know what they are talking about, according to the writings of Paul (the apostle). They deny that salvation and eternal life is a free gift, and claim that to be saved you have to obey the 10 Commandments; and it's because they don't understand the nature of grace. Eph. 2:8-10 explains it in a few words.

But the reason they don't believe it is because they fear antinomianism, which Jude and others labelled "licentiousness." They reason that if salvation is a free gift given by the grace of God, then they can commit any sin and still be saved. Paul described that reasoning in Rom. 3:8 this way: "Some slanderously claim that I teach 'let us do evil that good may come,'" and he emphatically condemns such reasoning.

But 1 Pet. 1:5 says that we are kept by the power of God, not by ourselves, our "free will," our own determination, our obedience to the 10 Commandments, or whatever else they think of with legalistic reasoning. But Paul wrote to true believers that "God is in you to will and do His good pleasure." This means that eternal life is a free gift, loving God is a free gift, holiness is a free gift, and every other spiritual blessing the Bible talks about, which is our motivation for loving God in every aspect of our lives. What Jesus did on the cross is sufficient to make our salvation (and spiritual healing) a free gift. Therefore, to those who "have it," it cannot be lost. Better words are: for those who "become sons of God."

How I don't know what I speak of?

The sons of God are the angels that are higher than the saints. As scripture saying "little higher than us", us means only the saints, because the apostle wrote this is a saint. How saints are different than regular living in Heaven is said in this verse: Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;". If we don't keep the ten commandments, we sin, above verses state that righteous barely is saved. It seems you not read it. The other sons of God are those led by the Holy Spirit according to Bible. But are not the original sons of God - the angels. But one to be led by the Holy Spirit he need to have the Holy Spirit to influence his free will. Demon in you, influences you to sin, Holy Spirit to righteousness. But Holy Spirit is not in one who God is destryoing for fornication, if he/she not keeping the ten commandments and fornicate: 1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.". It is talking about temple of the Holy Spirit, the body of the one who already received him. How he can destroy him, but then he repent and again have the Holy Spirit? Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." So, the Holy Spirit is a seal that one is in Christ, being saved, correct? So, the one who defiled God's temple (his body) according to the above verse already had the Holy Spirit in him, being saved, so him God destroying for fornication, who already is saved and had the Holy Spirit, because he fornicated and not keeping the ten commandments of God. But he was already saved? Had the Holy Spirit already? So what happened?

 

[GodsGrace]

Can one really lose their salvation? If asalvation is indeed a gift as the scriptures say then the only way to lose a gift unless you misplaced it is to give it away willingly at least this is how I always have understood it

IIs it a gift or is it not? I have seen plenty including me backslide and some have given up their faith but that is a willing choice, and if sin could make one lose their salvation what was the point of the blood that was shed? was it not good enough? does it not cover us and free us from the power of sin?

The above is correct.
Some who HAD faith, have abandoned it - for whatever the reason may be.

If there are verses in scripture about losing our salvation...
it means that this is a possibility.

Some just refuse to understand this and even scripture is refused.

 

[GodsGrace]

Legalists don't know what they are talking about, according to the writings of Paul (the apostle). They deny that salvation and eternal life is a free gift, and claim that to be saved you have to obey the 10 Commandments; and it's because they don't understand the nature of grace. Eph. 2:8-10 explains it in a few words.

But the reason they don't believe it is because they fear antinomianism, which Jude and others labelled "licentiousness." They reason that if salvation is a free gift given by the grace of God, then they can commit any sin and still be saved. Paul described that reasoning in Rom. 3:8 this way: "Some slanderously claim that I teach 'let us do evil that good may come,'" and he emphatically condemns such reasoning.

But 1 Pet. 1:5 says that we are kept by the power of God, not by ourselves, our "free will," our own determination, our obedience to the 10 Commandments, or whatever else they think of with legalistic reasoning. But Paul wrote to true believers that "God is in you to will and do His good pleasure." This means that eternal life is a free gift, loving God is a free gift, holiness is a free gift, and every other spiritual blessing the Bible talks about, which is our motivation for loving God in every aspect of our lives. What Jesus did on the cross is sufficient to make our salvation (and spiritual healing) a free gift. Therefore, to those who "have it," it cannot be lost. Better words are: for those who "become sons of God."

tdidymas
JESUS said we are to obey the Commandments...
It's unfortunate that you believe obeying Jesus is being a legalist.

Here's what Jesus taught:

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Luke 9:23
23 And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily * and follow Me.
Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless * your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
John 151-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

 

[GodsGrace]

We will have differences of opinion for those sealed in Christ by the Spirit vs those who aren't. Paul is not stating Christ will remain faithful to Himself which is self-evident to all who belong to God.

Those who know really know Christ would know this.
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.

Can not and will not.
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

You don't start with the Spirit and finish with good works. Its grace through faith.

You love one another as Christ loved. That fulfills all the law. Love does no harm to one's neighbor.

We who are sealed in Christ by the Spirit have been chosen by God. We have been appointed to eternal life by God. And He will remain faithful to that appointment.

Jesus stated Never perish which can't be true in your theology. For you believe one who has been sealed in Christ by the Spirit and are one with Him could possibly perish if they change their mind which would be madness as they would know and believe Jesus alone is life without end and apart from Him is death without end.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand

I don't view this as OSAS I view it as grace.
Paul who was set apart at birth before he did good or bad knew about grace and never backed down.

God has the ability to keep us safe in the most sinful of environments.
And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

You haven't replied to my question.
You state above that God will keep us safe in a sinful environment.

I hope you realize that when you credit God with all your actions, and with no input of your own,
you are, in effect, blaming God for every time you sin.

Apparently you think you do not sin but will not admit this.

Free will is not lost when one becomes saved.
The Holy Spirit helps us to maintain a clear conscience...
but He will not FORCE us to.

§The bottom line is this since you will not repy:

1. We must believe in God to be saved.
2. We must obey God to be saved.
3. If we do not believe in §God we will not be saved.
4. if we do not obey God we will not be saved.

Our salvation comes at the end of life.
Jesus said: Those that endure till the end will be saved.

Matthew 24.13
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Peter, who was taught by Jesus, wrote that we will obtain our salvation at the end...
why? Because he knew a person could fall away from the faith before their death:
1 Peter 1:9
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
And Paul agreed that a person could fall away and taught this:

1 Timothy 4.1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe in Sheol (the grave, state of dead). A place where all dead going, except very rarely the saints, that not taste death (Sheol) that Jesus said. They don't have food, they can't visit earth and they have Guardian Spirits that limit their free will. I think Catholicism call it Purgatory, and Orthodoxy Hell. It is temporary, because there they are tormented until Jesus return. And some avoid it, with spiritual practice on earth that is against Christ, but then they make pacts with the devils and cannot be saved when Jesus return, to temporary avoid Hell, they put there themselves permanently.

George 1
You're making statements that do not represent the Christian faith.
Man's free will is NEVER limited...man is free to do what he wishes to do.

Purgatory is not hell....
§What the Orthodox call hell is the same as what EVERY Christian calls hell.
It's the place where the lost who do not believe in God go AS SOON AS THEY DIE.
Nobody in purgatory is tormented because it's not the job of God to torment persons.
Jesus said He came to bring life and a life more abundant....
NOT to torment persons.

As to making pacts with the devil...
No pact is necessary.
A person is lost and must be born again and become saved.

You're mixing Christianity with some weird religion and I would strongly suggest that, IF you're Christian please learn your faith.

If you're NOT Christian, you should make this clear and the discussion would be different.

 

[George1]

George 1
You're making statements that do not represent the Christian faith.
Man's free will is NEVER limited...man is free to do what he wishes to do.

Purgatory is not hell....
§What the Orthodox call hell is the same as what EVERY Christian calls hell.
It's the place where the lost who do not believe in God go AS SOON AS THEY DIE.
Nobody in purgatory is tormented because it's not the job of God to torment persons.
Jesus said He came to bring life and a life more abundant....
NOT to torment persons.

As to making pacts with the devil...
No pact is necessary.
A person is lost and must be born again and become saved.

You're mixing Christianity with some weird religion and I would strongly suggest that, IF you're Christian please learn your faith.

If you're NOT Christian, you should make this clear and the discussion would be different.

I am Christian, this is my opinion.