John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Randy]

Right.
And what does BELIEVE mean?

And with that I bid you a good evening!
Tomorrow.

Do you believe this?
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Seems clear to me the forgiveness of sins is by faith not works.

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Her reply:
27“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Gal 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Hebrews 11 is not about doing good works but actions that showed their faith as genuine including Rahab a prostitute who hid the spies

Luke 5:17-39​

They believed and cut hole in the roof to lower their friend before Jesus.
Jesus saw their Faith and He forgave the man's sins which set off those who couldn't hear the truth.

God knows those who love Him and sees who believes in Him in their heart.

The fulfillment of all the law is Love as Paul wrote love does no harm to one's neighbor.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you believe this?
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Seems clear to me the forgiveness of sins is by faith not works.

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Her reply:
27“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Gal 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Hebrews 11 is not about doing good works but actions that showed their faith as genuine including Rahab a prostitute who hid the spies

Luke 5:17-39​

They believed and cut hole in the roof to lower their friend before Jesus.
Jesus saw their Faith and He forgave the man's sins which set off those who couldn't hear the truth.

God knows those who love Him and sees who believes in Him in their heart.

The fulfillment of all the law is Love as Paul wrote love does no harm to one's neighbor.

I agree.
You're speaking about those that love Jesus and follow His commandments.

What about those that claim to be Christian and yet claim that they can never become lost...
even if they do NOT obey Jesus?

Also, you didn't confirm what it means to believe.

Do those that do NOT obey God BELIEVE?

We are saved by faith.
This was true in the OT and in the NT.
Without faith no man will be saved.

But I'm speaking about AFTER salvation.

We are commanded by Jesus and by Paul to do good works/deeds.
This is part of obeying Jesus' commandments.

Jesus said that we are to follow His commandments if we're His friends.
Which commandments would those be if some say good works are not required after salvation?

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:4
4And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.
Hebrews 13:16
16Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
There are many more.


Jesus taught that we are to ACT on His words:

Matthew 7:24 The wise man
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 7:26 The foolish man
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Jesus left us with His commands so we could ACT ON THEM and be like the wise man.


As the OP brings to our attention:

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
JESUS states in verse 2 that every branch IN HIM that does not bear fruit will be taken away.
If a branch is IN CHRIST....he is saved.
The saved person that does NOT bear fruit will be taken away....
like a dead branch and burned...see verse 6.

6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


I believe Jesus makes very clear what He expects of those that are IN HIM and are born again, as He said we must be.

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB, I understand your ideas about Jesus' words, but how can you be sure that all believers are the people "abiding in him"? Isn't it possible that he is talking about the larger people of God?

Who are the larger people of God?
Jesus stated that those IN HIM that do not produce fruit will be cut away.

Who is IN Jesus?
Are the unsaved IN JESUS?

No.
The saved are in Jesus.
The saved are the ones that must obey God and follow His commandments.

The unsaved are not required to obey God.
They are already lost.

The reason I ask is that Psalm 80:8-16 seems to give the background to Jesus' words:

Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!

Since Jesus says that he is the TRUE vine, just as he says that he is the GOOD Shepherd, the vine in Psalm 80 is obviously the whole people of God, including believers, who are often a remnant or minority. As a result, unfruitful professing believers are in real danger.

As a result, it seems to me that being detached from the vine doesn't have anything to do with losing our salvation, but it does have to do with unfruitful lives in the visible church.

 

[Randy]

I agree.
You're speaking about those that love Jesus and follow His commandments.

What about those that claim to be Christian and yet claim that they can never become lost...
even if they do NOT obey Jesus?

Also, you didn't confirm what it means to believe.

Do those that do NOT obey God BELIEVE?

We are saved by faith.
This was true in the OT and in the NT.
Without faith no man will be saved.

But I'm speaking about AFTER salvation.

We are commanded by Jesus and by Paul to do good works/deeds.
This is part of obeying Jesus' commandments.

Jesus said that we are to follow His commandments if we're His friends.
Which commandments would those be if some say good works are not required after salvation?

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:4
4And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.
Hebrews 13:16
16Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
There are many more.


Jesus taught that we are to ACT on His words:

Matthew 7:24 The wise man
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 7:26 The foolish man
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Jesus left us with His commands so we could ACT ON THEM and be like the wise man.


As the OP brings to our attention:

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
JESUS states in verse 2 that every branch IN HIM that does not bear fruit will be taken away.
If a branch is IN CHRIST....he is saved.
The saved person that does NOT bear fruit will be taken away....
like a dead branch and burned...see verse 6.

6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


I believe Jesus makes very clear what He expects of those that are IN HIM and are born again, as He said we must be.

I think it's quite clear. "Love dies no harm to one's neighbor and fulfills all the law"
Ok we will disagree in regard to those who have the Spirit of Christ in them as opposed to those who give lip service. God looks at one's heart.
"Does not abide in me"
Yet for those born of God
They will not and cannot continue to sin BECAUSE Gods seed remains in them.
Even if they become faithless God will remain faithful because He cannot disown Himself.
They must Deny Him to be denied.

Those who claim to know Him but do not do what He states are Liars.

 

[George1]

Saved are those who currently live in Heaven. You cannot say I will go to Heaven because I belong there. Because no one ever ascended to Heaven according to Jesus. There is judgement of good and evil works after death. Until you breath you have free will, you can do something awful and then forget for Heaven. In Heaven you cannot sin anymore, so this is the only salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it's quite clear. "Love dies no harm to one's neighbor and fulfills all the law"
Ok we will disagree in regard to those who have the Spirit of Christ in them as opposed to those who give lip service. God looks at one's heart.
"Does not abide in me"
Yet for those born of God
They will not and cannot continue to sin BECAUSE Gods seed remains in them.
Even if they become faithless God will remain faithful because He cannot disown Himself.
They must Deny Him to be denied.

Those who claim to know Him but do not do what He states are Liars.

Agreed.
Just want to say that becoming faithless and denying Him is the same result.

 

[GodsGrace]

Saved are those who currently live in Heaven. You cannot say I will go to Heaven because I belong there. Because no one ever ascended to Heaven according to Jesus. There is judgement of good and evil works after death. Until you breath you have free will, you can do something awful and then forget for Heaven. In Heaven you cannot sin anymore, so this is the only salvation.

You're referring to

John 3.12-13
12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Why do you think Jesus meant that no one has been to heaven?
He's saying that no one has ASCENDED to heaven except the one who CAME FROM HEAVEN...
which is Jesus.

We do not ASCEND into heaven.
We have to die first.

This is what Jesus meant.

 

[Randy]

Agreed.
Just want to say that becoming faithless and denying Him is the same result.

If we become faithless He remain faithful as He cannot disown Himself
If we deny Him He will deny us.

This suggests the writer distinguished the two.

 

[Randy]

Saved are those who currently live in Heaven. You cannot say I will go to Heaven because I belong there. Because no one ever ascended to Heaven according to Jesus. There is judgement of good and evil works after death. Until you breath you have free will, you can do something awful and then forget for Heaven. In Heaven you cannot sin anymore, so this is the only salvation.

He speaks in their favor. To be born of God is a judgment made by God in ones favor.

A place is prepared in advance for those who have been appointed to eternal life.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

We are given eternal life by the one begotten of God. The one begotten of God keeps those born of God safe and the evil cannot harm them.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!Amen.

 

[George1]

You're referring to

John 3.12-13
12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Why do you think Jesus meant that no one has been to heaven?
He's saying that no one has ASCENDED to heaven except the one who CAME FROM HEAVEN...
which is Jesus.

We do not ASCEND into heaven.
We have to die first.

This is what Jesus meant.

I don't think no one has been to heaven. This you saying.
Where in Bible this means to die?
So you can say what Jesus meant without being Jesus.
Elijah and Enoch was taken to heaven alive too, yet Jesus said no one ever ascended to heaven, he have to be judged first.

 

[George1]

He speaks in their favor. To be born of God is a judgment made by God in ones favor.

A place is prepared in advance for those who have been appointed to eternal life.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

We are given eternal life by the one begotten of God. The one begotten of God keeps those born of God safe and the evil cannot harm them.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!Amen.

Satan is not their sin, they keep themselves from Satan, but have free will this is why after death is logical to have judgement.

 

[George1]

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Randy]

Satan is not their sin, they keep themselves from Satan, but have free will this is why after death is logical to have judgement.

It would be in their favor as in Christ there is no sin.

You speak of judgment. He speaks of life.
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.

 

[George1]

It would be in their favor as in Christ there is no sin.

You speak of judgment. He speaks of life.
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.

In Christ is very general said. There is people who performing miracles in Christ, but have nothing to do with him:

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Everyone is different, I am not Christ.

 

[Randy]

In Christ is very general said. There is people who performing miracles in Christ, but have nothing to do with him:

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Everyone is different, I am not Christ.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. Those that claim to know Him but do not do what He says are liars.

If you don't have the Spirit of Christ in you, (and this applies to all), you don't belong to Him and are you are not in the faith.

By the Help of the Spirit, we can guard the good deposit that was entrusted to us.

One who really knows Christ knows this.
“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

 

[George1]

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. Those that claim to know Him but do not do what He says are liars.

If you don't have the Spirit of Christ in you, (and this applies to all), you don't belong to Him and are you are not in the faith.

By the Help of the Spirit, we can guard the good deposit that was entrusted to us.

One who really knows Christ knows this.
“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

I don't know if I have the Holy Spirit, you decide, here is a story from my life.

There was a person who was dying from covid, and I prayed for him with a short prayer, the next moment he said: I am healed.

 

[Randy]

I don't know if I have the Holy Spirit, you decide, here is a story from my life.

There was a person who was dying from covid, and I prayed for him with a short prayer, the next moment he said: I am healed.

You would know. I can't know.
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

When you believed and were baptized did you receive the Spirit?

 

[George1]

You would know. I can't know.
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

When you believed and were baptized did you receive the Spirit?

If you ask me, I have the Holy Spirit.
I was baptized by Orthodox priest when I was 40 days old and believed when I was 3 or 4 years old.

 

[Randy]

If you ask me, I have the Holy Spirit.
I was baptized by Orthodox priest when I was 40 days old and believed when I was 3 or 4 years old.

Thats between you and God. You should have the inward witness though.

 

[George1]

Thats between you and God. You should have the inward witness though.

I have the inward witness, this is why I said if you ask me, I have the Holy Spirit.