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John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

What does a new born baby know?
can he walk
how about talk
we live and grow


So true, and should be considered when discussing this subject, as to whom much is given, much is expected.

God is so merciful to us, and when we are new Christians, we are not expected to "know" or "do", or "not do" the things the older more mature believer's are expected. He is merciful to us throughout our lives, as well, wanting us to stay close to Him, and obey Him, for our benefit, that we will be blessed, and teach our children what is right.

There is much scripture that speaks to this things.

However, it seems that the same people who post in these threads, over and over, are much older in the Lord, are discussing from that standpoint.


I have a question that I would like you to consider, from a neutral standpoint.


If you saw someone teaching your child a doctrine, that if they gave heed to, and believed it, would cause them to depart from the Christian faith...

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


How would that make you feel?
How would you react?

How do you think God the Father feels, when He sees people teaching His children a doctrine, that if believed, and given heed to, would cause His child to depart from the faith in His Son?


Can we please be honest about this?



JLB
 
How do you think God the Father feels, when He sees people teaching His children a doctrine, that if believed, and given heed to, would cause His child to depart from the faith in His Son?

I'm sure The Father is very disappointed when He sees people teaching that the everything He's made holy are not holy.

1 Timothy 4:4-5 (LEB) because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
 
Romans 5:7-10 (LEB) For only rarely will someone die on behalf of a righteous person for on behalf of a good person possibly someone might even dare to die, but God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Therefore, by much more, because we have been declared righteous now by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, by much more, having been reconciled, we will be saved by his life.

Since Christ died for us while we were still in sin (unbelief), just how much more of a demonstration does one need to prove that we will be saved through Him (His life, not ours)???


  • Yes, and knowing this, just how much more should we give heed to the things which pertain to salvation.

Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, Hebrews 2:1-3


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:3-9


  • God power keeps us through faith for salvation; the very salvation we are promised to receive at the end [end result] of our faith.


  • The very faith we are told to continue in, so that we will be partakers [have] of Christ; to be [considered as] His house.

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:5-6


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

  • This confidence is the substance of our hope; the substance of faith. The substance from which salvation is realized.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Substance - Confidence - Strong's G5287 - hypostasis

  1. a setting or placing under
    1. thing put under, substructure, foundation
  2. that which has foundation, is firm
    1. that which has actual existence
      1. a substance, real being
    2. the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
    3. the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
      1. confidence, firm trust, assurance



JLB
 
I'm sure The Father is very disappointed when He sees people teaching that the everything He's made holy are not holy.

1 Timothy 4:4-5 (LEB) because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.


Please refer to the post and number where someone said what God made holy, is not holy.



JLB
 
Another angle to see things from -

OSAS believes so because they are opposed to working for your salvation. So, in order to preserve the gift of salvation, once a person "believes" thats it. Done deal. Seal it and forget it.

The loophole in this, what most wont admit, is that OSAS looks at that "belief" as a work. You can see this from the fact that they look back on the "event" as something they did.

You could say, they look back on the "event" as something God did. But if that's the case - why is it not looked at as something God started, instead of something God did?

Philippians 1:6 - And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Nathan, you demean yourself by making a statement you know to be incorrect....you can do better.

As promised, my first act of the day will be to clarify myself.

I was once a staunch believer in OSAS. I do, after all, attend a Southern Baptist congregation. :)

However, when I started studying it for myself - and by myself - I quickly understood what being "saved" meant, and what salvation was.

I remember one of the pastors at the church, great guy, talking about it one time. He would always say, "Do you know, that you know, that you know you are saved" - He would also say he was so sure he would have no problem swinging out over hell on a rotten grapevine.........yea, that one always made me raise my eyebrow.

The thing is, OSAS looks to eternal salvation as the gift given once a person believes. When, in fact, Faith is what is given - even though that Faith looks forward to salvation. I do understand that because Faith is assurance of things not seen, one can honestly say "I have salvation". However, it is never presented - from all the OSAS people I have ever come in contact with - that salvation is only assured through Faith. Although, I suppose if you can get past the aggravation that always comes up when talking about it, the OSAS people would probably agree that it is through Faith they are assured salvation.

OSAS does believe its a done deal - sealed. I made the comment of "forget it" only because OSAS says there is no need for anything else once a person is saved. I DO NOT mean that OSAS says you can stick a ticket to heaven and walk away with it. I know that a lot of people who have a hatred toward OSAS think that people actually believe that. I never did, and no one I can remember talking with ever did either.

OSAS does believe there is more to the Christian life than just saying a prayer. However, they do not believe that turning away from God, from His Son, will result in not obtaining the end result of our Faith - salvation. The reason for this, I believe, is because they do not differentiate between Faith and Salvation.

I really do see the upside to OSAS because they absolutely do not believe you can do ANYTHING to keep salvation. However, as I stated before, it is a trap because if you believe that because of something you did, in a moment and place in time - like saying a prayer - then that becomes what your Faith is based in. I was once there. I remember being called, and I was sincere that I knew I needed to be saved. For a while I held onto that moment in time(it was an Easter Sunday) as my "know that I know that I know".

Thank God He did not leave me there. A while after that I came to the point of constantly seeing my sin. No amount of trying to assure myself that I had "believed" in Jesus made that realization of sin go away. Then one night, in my own house, God saved me. He gave me Faith to believe that Jesus paid it all. I still believed in OSAS though......I just chalked it up to the fact that I had not been really saved before.....

This time I knew though. Not because of the moment in time or anything(although I still remember that night), but because of the constant witness of The Spirit. As all young'ns do though, I still found myself sinning on occasion. Of course, when you sin as a believer, your always disciplined by God. It does not feel good. If your anything like me, you can also be stubborn. So there were honestly times when I kept on sinning, knowing I was sinning.....constantly understanding that God was not happy. I would not say that it was a 24hr a day kind of sinning because there were still those times when I would sit down and desire to read the Bible and have fellowship with God.

Of course, as you know, God cannot have fellowship with sin. I did not understand it at the time like I do now, but because I had repented of my sins, Faith does say that its a life of repentance. So those times I sinned, I always found myself turning away from the sin. Not in a go down front to the altar, or going into a confessional, just a simple yet sincere desire to not sin. Back and forth I went for years. I always found myself turning away from sin, but never understood why in totality. Just that I "needed" to.

However, without having a firm understanding of Faith - true doctrine - sin does have a way of enticing people like me. There were times when I would sin "greatly"(as if one sin is worse than another in God's eye), and those times were harder than the white lie sins. I would feel myself being secluded from God, probably like it was being put in a corner as a kid, but in a spiritual way. In order to remedy it, I would remind myself of that night. After all, it was the real deal - zero doubt.

Each time that would happen, I would feel a little more "disconnected". Then I had to revert back to my teaching. That God would not ultimately let the one who "believed" loose their salvation, but rather would take them out of this world. Trust me, I did not want that either, but for a while I used it as a "comfort" blanket to base my belief of salvation in. Do you see a trend?

Eventually I came to the point that I was basing my faith on things that I knew. I cannot point to a specific time, but eventually there was a point when I needed to understand that Faith, saving Faith, Faith that leads to Salvation, was not something I owned because of something I did, but was because God gave it to me - and continually gives it to us.

That's the #1 problem with OSAS. The "once" part of that doctrine means there cannot be more. The doctrine looks at Faith as a past event. I have heard it refuted this way though, that if you were saved then you will always be saved. Most OSAS people will look at people who most assuredly have left all semblance of the Faith, and just say "they were not really saved to begin with". How pompous is that? Besides that, who would want to live like that - wondering, was I really saved?

Its a real thing. I have met many like that. Their number one response to that question is, I know I said a prayer - or, I know that there was this one time..... They look back to that "event". The Bible is full of passages that deal with present Faith, continual Faith - not a Faith event. There in lies the trap. Looking back at something that happened, instead of looking to Him who continually works in us.

I don't mind debating/talking about OSAS, but I personally don't get upset like I used to. I realize that if God can reach a stubborn person like me with the truth, He can with others. I will still always defend the Faith, because that is what we are called to do. But I do not let it get under my skin and effect me personally.
 
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34


  • We will be sons of God in reality, when we have attained the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
  • For now we are sons of God by faith, which means we have the hope of salvation to come, when He returns.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26 KJV


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin,
for salvation. Hebrews 9:28






Paul calls this "pressing forward" and this "pursuing"; perseverance.


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


Paul uses the language associated with faith, to describe this glorious struggle of perseverance.


Faith is the substance of the thing hoped for...


Those who have this faith, have the hope of salvation [the redemption of our body; the resurrection] to come, though it is not seen.




JLB

:yes :thumbsup
 
The thing is, OSAS looks to eternal salvation as the gift given once a person believes. When, in fact, Faith is what is given - even though that Faith looks forward to salvation.


Nathan! You are my new Hero! :salute:amen
 
I'm sure The Father is very disappointed when He sees people teaching that the everything He's made holy are not holy.

1 Timothy 4:4-5 (LEB) because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

Are you saying God made us Holy? If not, I'm confused on your thoughts?
 
That's the #1 problem with OSAS. The "once" part of that doctrine means there cannot be more. The doctrine looks at Faith as a past event. I have heard it refuted this way though, that if you were saved then you will always be saved. Most OSAS people will look at people who most assuredly have left all semblance of the Faith, and just say "they were not really saved to begin with". How pompous is that? Besides that, who would want to live like that - wondering, was I really saved?

Its a real thing. I have met many like that. Their number one response to that question is, I know I said a prayer - or, I know that there was this one time..... They look back to that "event". The Bible is full of passages that deal with present Faith, continual Faith - not a Faith event. There in lies the trap. Looking back at something that happened, instead of looking to Him who continually works in us.


So True!


JLB
 
Are you saying God made us Holy? If not, I'm confused on your thoughts?


His dispute with me is 1 Timothy 4:1, "the faith" is not a reference to "faith in Christ", but rather, faith in what God made.

Whenever we see this phrase "the faith", in the New Testament, it is a reference to the faith in Christ.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 4:1-5


Here is the greater context:

13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 3:13-4:1


JLB
 
Are you saying God made us Holy? If not, I'm confused on your thoughts?
God's Word said He made us holy. Even told us how He did it.

Hebrews 10:10 (LEB) by which will [the Father's] we are made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
It wasn't done through our lifestyle.
 
God's Word said He made us holy. Even told us how He did it.

Hebrews 10:10 (LEB) by which will [the Father's] we are made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
It wasn't done through our lifestyle.


I agree....lol.....there is nothing in a humans lifestyle that will ever make them holy.

The word holy there is translated sanctified in the ESV.

The word is used to describe our position, not condition. If that makes sense?

"I am sick in bed" Sick is the condition, bed is the position. Sounds simple, but can be confusing.

Christ did separate us, once and for all. His sacrifice was pure and therefore complete - needing nothing more. So, through Faith, we are "separated/holy" before God. That is to say, we have been separated from our sins because God sees us through Christ. Apart from Christ our sins would separate us once again. There has to be a continual, as long as we are in this fleshly body, atonement for our sins. Christ is that "continual" atonement. I LOVE the song, 'There is a fountain'. Probably my most favorite hymn.

1 John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


Hebrews 2:17
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.


That word, propitiation, its an ongoing act. The word is also used in the following passage;

Luke 18:13
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’


The tax collector was not saying, "God, please forgive the sins I have committed". Rather, he was saying "God, please continue to forgive me, a person who often sins!"
 
The tax collector was not saying, "God, please forgive the sins I have committed". Rather, he was saying "God, please continue to forgive me, a person who often sins!"


The tax collector knew he was a sinner [a person without God], and was asking God to forgive his sins.



JLB
 
The tax collector knew he was a sinner [a person without God], and was asking God to forgive his sins.



JLB

More importantly, he was asking God to forgive his sins - past, present, and future - and because he was doing so, he was acknowledging God as the only one who can do so and will do so.
 
More importantly, he was asking God to forgive his sins - past, present, and future - and because he was doing so, he was acknowledging God as the only one who can do so and will do so.

Please provide Scripture reference of his prayer for past, present and future sins?
 
Please provide Scripture reference of his prayer for past, present and future sins?

Luke 18:13
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven,but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’


"be merciful" - hilaskomai
verb - in the continual form
'to expiate, make propitiation for'

Hebrews 2:14-18
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest pin the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted,
he is able to help those who are being tempted.


If we believe that Christ paid for our sins, once and for all, the it is the same as the tax collector. Christ's sacrifice was not just for past sins of the people, nor was it just for the present sins of the people, nor just the future sins.

Romans 5:8
but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


 
The word holy there is translated sanctified in the ESV.

Yes, it's the same word and same meaning Paul used in making His point in 1 Tim 4.

In later times some will depart from the faith by making claims that some things God has made holy will be rejected. In otherwords, teaching that holy creations can be overcome by lifestyle.

Odd thought, really since our lifestyle wasn't so great when we were saved in the first place. We were literally helpless, enemies of God, yet He saved us:


Romans 5:6, 9-11 (LEB) For while we were still helpless, yet at the proper time Christ died for the ungodly. ...

Therefore, by much more, because we have been declared righteous now by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath.

[It could not be stated any clearer. Since God has declared us righteous/holy by His blood, we WILL be saved. He even tells us why He can be so sure of this fact. It's done through Him, not us. And if you don't believe it's true, just look at how He reconciled us to God WHILE we were enemies.]

For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, by much more, having been reconciled, we will be saved by his life. And not only this, but also we are boasting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
 
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Luke 18:13
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven,but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’


"be merciful" - hilaskomai
verb - in the continual form
'to expiate, make propitiation for'

Hebrews 2:14-18
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest pin the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted,
he is able to help those who are being tempted.


If we believe that Christ paid for our sins, once and for all, the it is the same as the tax collector. Christ's sacrifice was not just for past sins of the people, nor was it just for the present sins of the people, nor just the future sins.

Romans 5:8
but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

I didn't think there was a verse stating this. Thanks for your explanation.
 
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Yet even our faith (belief) comes from God ... does it not?
(thus it was never on the works side of the equation - good or bad works).
Faith most certainly is a gracious gift given by God. Without it a person can not know the gospel is true.
We have to know the gospel is true, through the gift of faith, first so we can then do the believing that secures justification.

Just knowing the gospel is true can't justify a flea. Every Christ rejecting unbeliever knows the gospel is true, but John says they make the Holy Spirit who testified that truth to them a liar by then not believing what the Holy Spirit showed them to be true (1 John 5:6-10 NASB). So we know just knowing the gospel is true through God's gift of faith is not what saves. It's believing what God shows us to be true through the gift of faith that saves.

God gives the faith to know the unseen gospel is true--Hebrews 11:1 NASB. Man then responds by believing what God has shown him to be true, and that believing, that trusting, is then credited to the person's account as righteousness. Believing wasn't a work of the damnable works gospel when we first got saved. And it surely is not a work of the damnable works gospel after having trusted Christ either. But so many Christians think it is, because they have been erroneously taught that salvation is by nothing at all.

Justification/ salvation is not by nothing at all. Justification is by faith. Not nothing at all. What justification is not by is works. Somehow the church got faith and works confused with each other because it has been foolishly preached in the church that salvation is by nothing whatsoever (when it is in reality by believing). Lots and lots of people have been led astray by the church's error about Paul's faith vs. works doctrine. An error that gives strength to so many misguided OSAS arguments, particularly the hyper-grace version of OSAS.
 
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