John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[chessman]

WILL be saved so long as we stay in Christ.

The verse says "we will be saved by his life" not our life.

Bitterness is a dangerous emotion.

Christ died for bitterness too.

 

[JLB]

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


The sheep belonged to the Shepherd.
The sheep became lost.
The lost sheep is called a sinner, in need of repentance.
The lost sheep that is found, has been reconciled or restored to the Shepherd.

Lost = Disconnected from; a sinner
Found = Restored; rejoined or reconciled

JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

The sheep belonged to the Shepherd.

The sheep belong to the sheperd (present tense) not belonged (past tense).
If it was a typo, my bad.....

 

[chessman]

Do those of you who believe in OSAS feel as though what I am saying make you doubt your salvation?

No.

1 Corinthians 11:19 (LEB) For indeed it is necessary that there be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may become evident among you. ​

The only way for me to doubt my salvation would be to doubt the Truth of the Word.

Romans 5:9 (LEB) Therefore, by much more, because we have been declared righteous now by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath. ​

The truth is, we have been declared righteous now, by Him and thus will be saved through Him.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Perhaps it could just be called "another Gospel."

And this would be an allusion to the scripture....
Galations 1
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed.
And here I believed that kind of thought had died out with the inquisition when relating to Protestantism.....

 

[JLB]

The sheep belong to the sheperd (present tense) not belonged (past tense).
If it was a typo, my bad.....

The sheep that becomes lost, has been disconnected from the Lord.

In this lost state, the sheep that belongs to the Shepherd, has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, being lost.

• Lost = Sinner in need of repentance; without God
• Found = Reconciled to God;

I once was lost, but now I am found...?


JLB

 

[Atonement]

Being a man/woman of God will never be easy, but those who have passed the test (if you will) did so because they successfully overcame the opinions of others, successfully fought their own feelings and weaknesses of character, and successfully contended with spiritual opposition. Years ago when I first joined here. I was still a baby in the Lord. I was probably a Christian for 11 years (gave my life to Christ in 1991'). And I wanted to debate everyone.. Go back and see my OLD post(s). I was a different man back then. Over the years I have matured in Christ and learned to pick subjects that matter to me. If I felt that my salvation was being questioned by anything I read on these forums. The I wouldn't be a strong Christian who has grown in His Word nor would I have successfully overcome the opinions of others.
We are all at different walks with Christ; some new, some old and some just curious about the faith. But one thing we can all do and that is edify each other even when we disagree in our theology. After all pride seems to get in the way sometimes (though people will not call it pride because that sounds bitter), but when someone has to be right no matter the outcome, their opinions must be heard and there is no end in sight to any opinion on the matter, we have crossed into another realm that is unhealthy for other believers and their current walk with Christ.. I'm just another voice on these forums - but hopefully the young babes in the Lord can learn from those who been with Him for over half their lives and can learn a thing or two about debating topics that may cause one to question their salvation.

 

[civilwarbuff]

The sheep that becomes lost, has been disconnected from the Lord.

In this lost state, the sheep that belongs to the Shepherd, has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, being lost.

• Lost = Sinner in need of repentance; without God
• Found = Reconciled to God;

I once was lost, but now I am found...?


JLB

If it did not belong to the sheperd he would not go look for it because it was no longer his; however he leaves the other to find the one that has wandered off, not sold, not given away, not rejected.....wandered off. Ownership is never relinquished.....the sheep is still his. A person does not go looking for something that does not belong to him.....that he does not have ownership of......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Being a man/woman of God will never be easy, but those who have passed the test (if you will) did so because they successfully overcame the opinions of others, successfully fought their own feelings and weaknesses of character, and successfully contended with spiritual opposition. Years ago when I first joined here. I was still a baby in the Lord. I was probably a Christian for 11 years (gave my life to Christ in 1991'). And I wanted to debate everyone.. Go back and see my OLD post(s). I was a different man back then. Over the years I have matured in Christ and learned to pick subjects that matter to me. If I felt that my salvation was being questioned by anything I read on these forums. The I wouldn't be a strong Christian who has grown in His Word nor would I have successfully overcome the opinions of others.
We are all at different walks with Christ; some new, some old and some just curious about the faith. But one thing we can all do and that is edify each other even when we disagree in our theology. After all pride seems to get in the way sometimes (though people will not call it pride because that sounds bitter), but when someone has to be right no matter the outcome, their opinions must be heard and there is no end in sight to any opinion on the matter, we have crossed into another realm that is unhealthy for other believers and their current walk with Christ.. I'm just another voice on these forums - but hopefully the young babes in the Lord can learn from those who been with Him for over half their lives and can learn a thing or two about debating topics that may cause one to question their salvation.

You graduated from spiritual milk to meat.....

 

[Jim Parker]

Now, now.....don't starting insulting entire segments of Christianity......what would your saints think of such an approach?

Calvinism is a new wind of doctrine as is Armenianism and Dispensationalism and denominationalism.
That's not an insult; it's a fact. None of those comprised the core doctrine of Christianity for the previous 1500 years before they started popping up.

iakov the fool

 

[Atonement]

Calvinism is a new wind of doctrine as is Armenianism and Dispensationalism and denominationalism.
That's not an insult; it's a fact. None of those comprised the core doctrine of Christianity for the previous 1500 years before they started popping up.

iakov the fool

Because something is considered "new" does that automatically suggest the view is wrong?

How many times in my life at least have I read a Scripture and then a light comes on, and I see it completely different then the way I did before. Does the new way of digesting Scripture wrong? Or was I enlightened by the Father and was given new revelation in the passage(s)?

Same can be asked about this too?

Because a "new wind of doctrine" is considered just that, new. How can we so easily say, it's new therefore it's not correct or decide not to consider the aspect. We as people are always revolving, why wouldn't the same be true in Scripture and spiritual revelations as well?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Calvinism is a new wind of doctrine as is Armenianism and Dispensationalism and denominationalism.
That's not an insult; it's a fact. None of those comprised the core doctrine of Christianity for the previous 1500 years before they started popping up.

iakov the fool

So, are you claiming these are outside of Christianity?.....if so, where do they fall?

 

[Jim Parker]

Maybe that's because you will find people at all levels in their walk with Messiah from those struggling to believe to those who have walked with him for years.

I find that most churches do not ave a discipleship program in place for the specific purpose of "the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" (Eph 2:12-13)
Those who believed and repented were "...also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..." (Ro 8:29)
I don't see any churches teaching their congregations that they are to be just like Christ

If they have a "discipleship" program, it's usually just classes in which people are taught scriptures but without any emphasis whatsoever on the multitude of verses which tell Christians how they should act. Holiness doesn't seem to be an issue with the modern, western version of Christianity. It's assumed that, because you said, "I believe!" that you are automatically holy.
What the OSAS cluster of teachings encourages is for believers to just believe and then show up every time the church is open and write a check. Nothing beyond that is seriously encouraged and certainly not presented as the standard of Christian praxis. And the result is that the neo-pagan world sees Christians acting just like them and concludes we're all hypocrites.

IIRC Messiah had some 'low standards' also eating and associating with sinners; maybe all churches should have such 'low standards'.

That was not a low standard. Jesus came specifically to save the lost, ie: "sinners".
He died for sinners. It was the purpose for which he was born. (Mat 18:11; Luk 19:10)
Those who complained that he lowered his standards were the pharisees.


iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

If it did not belong to the sheperd he would not go look for it because it was no longer his; however he leaves the other to find the one that has wandered off, not sold, not given away, not rejected.....wandered off. Ownership is never relinquished.....the sheep is still his. A person does not go looking for something that does not belong to him.....that he does not have ownership of......

I agree the sheep belongs to the Sheppard in the found state.

In the lost state, is where we differ in perspective.

• Lost mean's no longer in possession, no longer reconciled, no longer in relationship, without God; Dead to God.

8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:8-10


31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:31-32



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

So who are these people who exercise their free will in opposition to the will of God?

Anyone, believer or no, who sins.

I respond in love and obedience to his loving call and embrace (I can do no other).

Your responding to His call was an act of free will. (John 3:16)

That doesn't mean that, if you do not produce fruit appropriate to your repentance, that God will not cut you off from union with Christ, as He said he would, (John 15:1-2) and it doesn't mean that you will never exercise your free will to become apostate. (John 15:6)

 

[Jim Parker]

And here I believed that kind of thought had died out with the inquisition when relating to Protestantism.....

cheap shot
Please show me from your sola scriptura where it says that it is proper for any person or group of people to separate themselves from the Church which Jesus established on the day of Pentecost and to reform it according to their new winds of doctrine.

 

[Jim Parker]

Because something is considered "new" does that automatically suggest the view is wrong?

What new revelation did God give after the gospels and the apostles letters that the teaching of the apostles should be adjusted?
There have been none.
What adjustments did God make to correct the errors of the apostles' teaching contained in the NT?
There have been none.

It is, of course, a matter of degree. Calvin, Zwingli, et al were all devoted Christians but their messages have resulted in the fracturing of Christ's body into, literally, tens of thousands of denominations all claiming to be the teachers of the truly true real honest-to goodness Gospel.

In the early, unified, Church, when new teachings arose, they would be examined by councils of bishops so that Arianism and docetism and Nestorianism etc. were all rejected. But in the era of the East-West divided Church, when political interests effected ecclesiastic interests, the Germanic kingdoms found, in the excommunication of Martin Luther, a religious expediency to separate themselves from any political interference from Rome by becoming Protestant and the Reformation was off and running. The first thing it generated was 100 years of warfare between Protestant Christians and Catholic Christians resulting in the deaths of many millions of Christians who slaughtered each other "for the cause of Christ".

What was Jesus' will?
Jhn 17:20-23 (RSV) I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

Is the church "one"?
No, not any more.
Why not. Because we invented denominations with various teachings based on new winds of doctrine. The first split was between the east and the west based on, among other things, unilateral "adjustments" to the basics of the faith initiated by Rome. (Philioque, Immaculate conception, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome)

What is the response of "the world"?
Does the world believe that the Father sent the son?
Does the world believe that the Father love the world?
From the decline of morality in Europe and North America and the rise of neo-paganism, atheism, agnosticism, and the general hostility toward the church, it seems to me that that answer is also "no."

One of the "winds of doctrine" that arose from the Protestant Reformation, and, specifically, from Calvinism, is the OSAS doctrine which was never taught anywhere for at least the first 1500 years of the Church's existence. And the reason that it was not taught is that the whole council of scripture (as opposed to selected snippets from various places) not only does not support it but, in fact, refutes the idea.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Nathan]

Before moving on myself, I want to say - clarify - that I do not feel I am "right". I speak of only those things I believe. I am not trying to convert anyone's belief. God forbid someone look at my words and follow them.

So please know that I am only engaging in this conversation because I am deeply interested in it. I truly, 100%, want to know what the people who wholly believe OSAS thinks. I do hope that we can continue in love.

 

[Jim Parker]

So, are you claiming these are outside of Christianity?.....if so, where do they fall?

No I am not.
But they are a distortion of the original teaching of the church which has been used by the devil in the dividing of the Kingdom of God on earth.

 

[Jim Parker]

I do hope that we can continue in love.

That is the most excellent way.