John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Nathan]

Another angle to see things from -

OSAS believes so because they are opposed to working for your salvation. So, in order to preserve the gift of salvation, once a person "believes" thats it. Done deal. Seal it and forget it.

The loophole in this, what most wont admit, is that OSAS looks at that "belief" as a work. You can see this from the fact that they look back on the "event" as something they did.

You could say, they look back on the "event" as something God did. But if that's the case - why is it not looked at as something God started, instead of something God did?

Philippians 1:6 - And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[atpollard]

That is exactly what is done to give the appearance of scriptural support for the OSAS heresy.

... and to refute it. :wink

 

[civilwarbuff]

That is exactly what is done to give the appearance of scriptural support for the OSAS heresy.

Jim, you need to be careful throwing the word heresy around.....it may be your belief that OSAS is wrong but unless you are God's spokesman you don't get the last word on it.....it is very insulting to call things you disagree with 'heresy' simply because you disagree.

 

[atpollard]

deleted

 

[civilwarbuff]

OSAS believes so because they are opposed to working for your salvation. So, in order to preserve the gift of salvation, once a person "believes" thats it. Done deal. Seal it and forget it.

Nathan, you demean yourself by making a statement you know to be incorrect....you can do better.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim, you need to be careful throwing the word heresy around.....it may be your belief that OSAS is wrong but unless you are God's spokesman you don't get the last word on it.....it is very insulting to call things you disagree with 'heresy' simply because you disagree.

It is not "just because I disagree."
Calvinism was deemed to be heresy by the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672. OSAS is a part of that being a variation of the "preservation of the saints."
And, since it is refuted by scripture multiple times, it seems to qualify.
It is also a late innovation of the 16th century which had never been accepted by the universal church prior to Calvin's departure from the orthodoxy of the original church.
Perhaps it could just be called "another Gospel."

 

[Jim Parker]

OSAS believes so because they are opposed to working for your salvation.

By rejecting the OSAS gospel, I, personally, have never suggested, stated, implied or hinted that anyone had to "work for their salvation."
The objections to the OSAS gospel variation are not about HOW one gets saved but, rather, what God has said in His word that He expects from believers. Quite simply, that we should act like believers for the rest of our time on earth.
The objections to the OSAS gospel also include the multiple scriptures which very clearly refute that teaching.

Philippians 1:6 - And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

And thus you demonstrate the primary snare by which people are enticed to believe in the OSAS gospel: "proof-texting." Taking a single sentence out of a paragraph or a passage or a letter and ignoring what else the Word says.
In that same letter, Paul, himself, does not claim that he is sure of his salvation but that he continues to strive to insure that he attains it.
Phl 3:8-15a
Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Let those of us who are mature be thus minded;


iakov the fool

 

[Papa Zoom]

You receive salvation, as an end [completed] result of faith.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

• If you depart from the faith, before the end result is attained, the you have discarded the means and the gift by which you are saved.

... receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 John 1:9


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8


Faith is the gift and substance and unseen evidence of salvation.




JLB

I am aware of all of this.

 

[Papa Zoom]

The ONLY thing that would make salvation not able to be lost is the believer ultimately can never stop believing permanently, and that all the warnings in the Bible to not stop believing, or else be lost, will ultimately be successful in persuading the believer to never leave the faith, or eventually come back. Sounds good, right? I respect the argument. I believed that for many years. But when we hear of death bed refusals to come back to the faith.....well....that kind of sours that argument.

Regardless, the Bible says to keep believing, or else be lost, and that's what we need to be telling believers. Whether you or I want to believe that warning will always be successful or not is an individual conviction between us and God, and I can accept that (and have). But this ridiculous hyper/free grace doctrine that has former believers who now hate and deny and reject Christ to his face still retaining the gift of eternal life and being saved on the Day of Wrath is so ludicrous it's amazing to me that any Christian would believe such an outrageous anti-gospel/ anit christ message. But traditional OSAS is what opened the door to that teaching.

The bottom line is, it's not a question of what will happen to the person who stops believing. The Bible is very clear about that. It's a question of whether they really can permanently stop believing. I think they can. But I respect the person who believes they can't. At least the person who thinks they can't stop believing retains the necessity for the righteousness of faith in the life of the believer as the condition for being saved.

Then it is not a gift. I've earned it and the Cross of Christ was not sufficient. It's Jesus plus me = salvation.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I was contemplating this last night. I've said before, I understand why people believe in not "loosing" salvation. So I was thinking why is there such a stark difference in opinions on such a wonderful thing?

I truly believe it is because we have such differences in idea's of what salvation is to begin with. When this topic is brought up, both sides go instantly to the passages that deal with their respective beliefs - verses that deal with having eternal salvation, and those dealing with leaving the Faith.

How about instead, the thought process turns to understanding what salvation is? Not how we get, keep, or loose it. Kind of like building something, start from the ground with a sturdy foundation, then build up.

There are 4 different views regarding eternal security. All of those holding those opposing views on ES think their view is right. AND they think the other three are missing something. I get a chuckle at this.

 

[Papa Zoom]

On the support side of OSAS there is the Prodigal Son.....welcomed back to his Father's house no questions, no condemnation, no recrimination.....the father cuts off his admission of guilt....a cloak, ring and feast given to him....the father even corrects his other son, who had obeyed his father, for objecting to the celebration.
Either side of OSAS is not so easy to lay to rest......

My favorite story in the Bible. I call it the story of the Prodigal Father. It's really a story about God first and foremost and then the contrast between the two sons. A great message for all of us. http://www.timothykeller.com/books/the-prodigal-god

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, you demean yourself by making a statement you know to be incorrect....you can do better.

I believe my words were poorly chosen. They could be read differently than I intended. I see that you caught this.

I will clarify first thing tomorrow.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It is not "just because I disagree."
Calvinism was deemed to be heresy by the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672. OSAS is a part of that being a variation of the "preservation of the saints."
And, since it is refuted by scripture multiple times, it seems to qualify.
It is also a late innovation of the 16th century which had never been accepted by the universal church prior to Calvin's departure from the orthodoxy of the original church.
Perhaps it could just be called "another Gospel."

Since the Synod of Jerusalem is not an ecumenical council recognized by Protestants I guess WE can just write it off to a case of ignorance on the part of Eastern Orthodoxy......after all, no one is perfect.

 

[Nathan]

There are 4 different views regarding eternal security. All of those holding those opposing views on ES think their view is right. AND they think the other three are missing something. I get a chuckle at this.

There are probably even more than that really. I think there are two major ones though. Those who think ES cannot be lost and those who do.

How we define salvation breaks things down into smaller categories. But there are two main ones.

 

[Papa Zoom]

What concerns me is that, now this is of course just my opinion, too often people get the impression that praying the sinner's prayer is enough. In other words, if in a moment of being caught up in the excitement of a situation (evangelistic event for example) I mouth the words of the sinner's prayer as presented to me by another that instructs, "Repeat after me" I am saved and from that moment on nothing else matters because I cannot lose said salvation no matter what. I can leave the situation return or continue in my old ways with the understanding that life is good now because I'm in.

Mouthing a prayer is not praying, is it? Repeating words as instructed by another is not prayer, is it? My understanding of prayer is a personal, intimate conversation with God Almighty expressed from within.

Is being saved something that just happens at a single blink or moment in time and done or is it something that results in a complete renovating change of the person lasting a lifetime and beyond? That is, not only the salvation lasts for eternity but the change in the person as well would go hand-in-hand. Is a person completely changed in a moment or is the change lifelong growth process to maturity?

Justification is immediate but sanctification is a process that happens over the lifetime of a believer. As for praying a prayer, God judges the heart. Externals don't matter if the heart isn't right. If the heart is right, a person is immediately under the blood of Christ and has at that moment, eternal life. Not eternal life to come, but eternal life now. This is how I understand it.

 

[Papa Zoom]

But it did take an initiated action by the lost, dead son....to return to the father, right?

That's not the point of the story. This is a story about a Father who longed for the return of his son. He eagerly awaited his sons return home. And when he spotted his son, the Father threw a party. Open arms, open heart. The Father awaited the son well before the son initiated any action.

 

[Papa Zoom]

That is exactly what is done to give the appearance of scriptural support for the OSAS heresy.

Eternal security isn't a heresy.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Jim, you need to be careful throwing the word heresy around.....it may be your belief that OSAS is wrong but unless you are God's spokesman you don't get the last word on it.....it is very insulting to call things you disagree with 'heresy' simply because you disagree.

I agree. No one has a perfect theology. The issue of eternal salvation isn't new. It's been around a long time. I suspect all of us will have a few surprises when we die. Now we know only in part. Then we will know as we are fully known.

 

[Nathan]

Justification is immediate but sanctification is a process that happens over the lifetime of a believer. As for praying a prayer, God judges the heart. Externals don't matter if the heart isn't right. If the heart is right, a person is immediately under the blood of Christ and has at that moment, eternal life. Not eternal life to come, but eternal life now. This is how I understand it.

Interesting. What is the difference in eternal life to come and eternal life now?

 

[Papa Zoom]

There are probably even more than that really. I think there are two major ones though. Those who think ES cannot be lost and those who do.

How we define salvation breaks things down into smaller categories. But there are two main ones.

you are probably right about that. I should have said "at least 4" ;)