John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Nathan]

I missed some while I was gone, so it may take some time to catch up.

First off, the question I asked about the one being condemned by Jesus. I asked the question because if you think logically, the fact is we know that anyone who does not believe at the moment(or even the moment that He said that), can in fact believe and receive eternal life. So, again logically, if one can go from condemnation into Faith - why cant one go from Faith back into condemnation?

The Bible does not say that one cannot leave the Faith. So why do we say they can?

 

[Nathan]

The verse says "we will be saved by his life" not our life.


Christ died for bitterness too.

I never stated that we would be saved by our life.

 

[Nathan]

No.

1 Corinthians 11:19 (LEB) For indeed it is necessary that there be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may become evident among you. ​

The only way for me to doubt my salvation would be to doubt the Truth of the Word.

Romans 5:9 (LEB) Therefore, by much more, because we have been declared righteous now by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath. ​

The truth is, we have been declared righteous now, by Him and thus will be saved through Him.

Good. I am glad.

If someone was to ask the question, "how do you know your saved" - how would you answer? I am not being facetious here.

 

[Atonement]

Thanks for your explanation.. Though I totally disagree with it.. Thanks for the effort in positioning yourself .. Much obliged

 

[Nathan]

Thanks for your explanation.. Though I totally disagree with it.. Thanks for the effort in positioning yourself .. Much obliged

Who is this meant for? (there was no quote attached to it)

 

[civilwarbuff]

I find that most churches do not ave a discipleship program in place for the specific purpose of "the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" (Eph 2:12-13)

So you have attended 'most churches' then? If not it is best to not make generalizations about the way people practice.......

I don't see any churches teaching their congregations that they are to be just like Christ

Then you are welcome to come visit mine anytime. You will find we don't go through rote, mechanisitic, ritualistic, and anachronistic forms of worship. You might find it refreshing......

If they have a "discipleship" program, it's usually just classes in which people are taught scriptures but without any emphasis whatsoever on the multitude of verses which tell Christians how they should act. Holiness doesn't seem to be an issue with the modern, western version of Christianity. It's assumed that, because you said, "I believe!" that you are automatically holy.
What the OSAS cluster of teachings encourages is for believers to just believe and then show up every time the church is open and write a check. Nothing beyond that is seriously encouraged and certainly not presented as the standard of Christian praxis. And the result is that the neo-pagan world sees Christians acting just like them and concludes we're all hypocrites.

I will leave the expertise to those who have attended 'most churches' though you are certainly entitled to your opinion FWIW.

That was not a low standard. Jesus came specifically to save the lost, ie: "sinners".
He died for sinners. It was the purpose for which he was born. (Mat 18:11; Luk 19:10)
Those who complained that he lowered his standards were the pharisees.

You are the one who commented on the low standards of the church.......His church......not mine....not yours....His.

 

[Papa Zoom]

True, but what if the son had never returned?

On a side note, I like how you approach this discussion. This is a topic in which I am standing on the fence and I enjoy reading the various comments. Unfortunately too many of the counter arguments lack compassion and it can be discouraging. It is much more refreshing to read when others are treated with respect and brotherly love rather than with disdain.

Good question. I suspect the father would have continued in his longing for his son's return, never giving up hope. I believe this is how God is with us. Longing for us to come to Him and be received.

As to the discussion on eternal security, I doubt that anyone knows with absolute certainty exactly how God's plan here unfolds. Including me. We have ideas. But many of us have different ideas on this same issue. And we all get our different views from the same source.

None of us understands this question in the same way God knows it. We have a dim view of the reality of God's full plan. The Bible tells us we see things dimly. As through a glass that is not clear. We have to make guesses the best we can. I know my view is but one of several and that just like the other views could be wrong, so could I. Still, a person has to settle on what they believe to be the truth. If I could be convinced to another view in the matter, I'm open for that. I just can't get past what I see as clear teaching of scripture. I try to keep this in mind in all discussion but I know I fail from time to time.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I agree the sheep belongs to the Sheppard in the found state.

In the lost state, is where we differ in perspective.

• Lost mean's no longer in possession, no longer reconciled, no longer in relationship, without God; Dead to God.

8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:8-10


31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:31-32



JLB

Why would Messiah die for people who are dead to God?
2 Corinthians
2Co 5:14 The love of the Messiah controls us, for we are convinced of this: that one person died for all people; therefore, all people have died.
2Co 5:15 He died for all people, so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for the one who died and rose for them.
2Co 5:16 So then, from now on we do not think of anyone from a human point of view. Even if we did think of the Messiah from a human point of view, we don't think of him that way anymore.
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creation. Old things have disappeared, and—look!—all things have become new!
2Co 5:18 All of this comes from God, who has reconciled us to himself through the Messiah and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 for through the Messiah, God was reconciling the world to himself by not counting their sins against them. He has committed his message of reconciliation to us.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are the Messiah's representatives, as though God were pleading through us. We plead on the Messiah's behalf: "Be reconciled to God!"
2Co 5:21 God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that God's righteousness would be produced in us.

 

[civilwarbuff]

cheap shot

No, it is an response to what you truly believe.....otherwise you would not have commented so......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Please show me from your sola scriptura

Oh, and BTW....it ain't mine....it's Gods.......

 

[Papa Zoom]

No, it was just a question.

Another question. Do those of you who believe in OSAS feel as though what I am saying make you doubt your salvation?

I do NOT believe in OSAS. I believe in Jesus. I know of no one that believes in OSAS.

 

[Nathan]

I find that most churches do not ave a discipleship program in place for the specific purpose of "the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" (Eph 2:12-13)
Those who believed and repented were "...also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..." (Ro 8:29)
I don't see any churches teaching their congregations that they are to be just like Christ

If they have a "discipleship" program, it's usually just classes in which people are taught scriptures but without any emphasis whatsoever on the multitude of verses which tell Christians how they should act. Holiness doesn't seem to be an issue with the modern, western version of Christianity. It's assumed that, because you said, "I believe!" that you are automatically holy.
What the OSAS cluster of teachings encourages is for believers to just believe and then show up every time the church is open and write a check. Nothing beyond that is seriously encouraged and certainly not presented as the standard of Christian praxis. And the result is that the neo-pagan world sees Christians acting just like them and concludes we're all hypocrites.


That was not a low standard. Jesus came specifically to save the lost, ie: "sinners".
He died for sinners. It was the purpose for which he was born. (Mat 18:11; Luk 19:10)
Those who complained that he lowered his standards were the pharisees.


iakov the fool

A discipleship "program" is what Jesus and His followers would call "life". We are all called to disciple. Each in our own way, but the modern day "church" is nothing more than an organization. An organization will never produce an organism.

I personally disagree with the OSAS people encouraging believers to just believe and show up for church. I know quite a few OSAS believers that genuinely desire for others to serve God. That's why I do not look so harsh on the OSAS believers.

Some do, I'll give you that. Sickens me to death. But its also rampant in church's(I never liked using that word in this manner) that believe in full on loss of salvation. Look at the Catholic church for example. I know many of them, on both sides.

OSAS is less of a doctrinal issue that works by salvation. It is simply a matter of view. The only thing, ONLY thing I see detrimental, is the believer who has fallen into the life of continual sin again, who then when drawn by the Spirit of God to stop sin, continues on in sin. Then, when they get so engrossed in sin, they look at the Faith and think - God can never save me, I must have never been saved to begin with even though I said a prayer or walked an isle. They read ALL the passages that deal with sinners not inheriting the kingdom, of them being cast into hell.

Then that person thinks all of their years of faith have been in vain. And while they are doubting their selves, they move on to doubting God. Then, it breaks my heart to think it, they start doubting the Holy Spirits ability to save them - to keep them. Doubt is a real thing people. Wake up. It is what satan used to lure Eve in the Garden.

That doubt is what the Bible warns over and over about. If you think it cannot happen, just because it has not happened to you or anyone you know, you only fool yourselves. I know it can happen. I have seen it happen. It almost happened to me.

 

[Papa Zoom]

No.

1 Corinthians 11:19 (LEB) For indeed it is necessary that there be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may become evident among you. ​

The only way for me to doubt my salvation would be to doubt the Truth of the Word.

Romans 5:9 (LEB) Therefore, by much more, because we have been declared righteous now by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath. ​

The truth is, we have been declared righteous now, by Him and thus will be saved through Him.

:amen

 

[Nathan]

I do NOT believe in OSAS. I believe in Jesus. I know of no one that believes in OSAS.

Interesting Papa. Very interesting. What area of the country are you from? Maybe a regional thing?

 

[civilwarbuff]

But they are a distortion of the original teaching of the church which has been used by the devil in the dividing of the Kingdom of God on earth.

But that is assuming that 'the church' was not corrupted by the devil CAUSING the division in the 1st place......

 

[Atonement]

Who is this meant for? (there was no quote attached to it)

My apologies Nathan.. Mr. Parker

 

[atpollard]

Calvinism is a new wind of doctrine as is Armenianism and Dispensationalism and denominationalism.
That's not an insult; it's a fact. None of those comprised the core doctrine of Christianity for the previous 1500 years before they started popping up.

For most of that same 1500 years, a person could purchase indulgences and could not read the scripture in their native language. (Also just a fact.)

 

[atpollard]

Before moving on myself, I want to say - clarify - that I do not feel I am "right". I speak of only those things I believe. I am not trying to convert anyone's belief. God forbid someone look at my words and follow them.

So please know that I am only engaging in this conversation because I am deeply interested in it. I truly, 100%, want to know what the people who wholly believe OSAS thinks. I do hope that we can continue in love.

No offense, but I can't really imagine much 'conversation' coming out of any OSAS topic on this board. It falls right into the classic mudslinging of Arminianism vs Calvinism on some other boards.

I jump in with snippets, but would never really wade in with an opinion to draw the sort of vitriol that brings accusations like heresy and the back and forth pointless bickering. So if you want to know what people who wholly believe in the Perseverance of the Saints believe, you will need to look somewhere that it will not be described as "hyper-Calvinism" and accused of teaching things that no one I know believes.

 

[Nathan]

No offense, but I can't really imagine much 'conversation' coming out of any OSAS topic on this board. It falls right into the classic mudslinging of Arminianism vs Calvinism on some other boards.

I jump in with snippets, but would never really wade in with an opinion to draw the sort of vitriol that brings accusations like heresy and the back and forth pointless bickering. So if you want to know what people who wholly believe in the Perseverance of the Saints believe, you will need to look somewhere that it will not be described as "hyper-Calvinism" and accused of teaching things that no one I know believes.

I understand what you are saying. I know that it can be dirty. I remember, back a few years ago, one of the moderators warning me about it. I think they called it the PIT?

I don't mind the other 'stuff' that comes along with engaging. I understand it will happen, so I am not surprised by it. I try not to further the ridiculous stuff. But to not discuss, because of some bad apples, would be only looking out for my own interests. I want to know others beliefs, but I am not searching for truth - if that's what it came across as.

 

[Atonement]

No offense, but I can't really imagine much 'conversation' coming out of any OSAS topic on this board. It falls right into the classic mudslinging of Arminianism vs Calvinism on some other boards.

Amazing.. Brother you get it !!!

God Bless