John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[chessman]

Can you point me to where I can find that the Hebrews, believers and unbelievers alike, are with God?

Sure. God was with them in the desert for 40 years. And in their Temple for 100's of years. And some of them hung God on a tree to die. They are His people, none the less. That doesn't mean they were all saved though.

As Paul points out from long ago, God was with them. Yes, even those disobedient ones.

Romans 10:21 (LEB But about Israel he says, “The whole day long I held out my hands to a disobedient and resistant people.”​

Just as He was with me (an unbeliver) before I was saved, too. But that's another subject.

I would copy and paste, and I will if it helps, but the understanding that the Hebrews(Israel) is at the present time 'cut off' from God - except the ones who believe like we do - is a rather long passage.

Paul covers it quite clearly in Romans chapters 10 and 11.

Yes and in Chapter 9:

Romans 9:3-5 (LEB) For I could wish myself to be accursed from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my fellow countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the temple service, and the promises, to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen. ​

Do you think Paul is talking about his brothers in Christ here or his brothers according to the flesh?

 

[Nathan]

Maybe I wasn't clear? I do believe the writer of Hebrews was talking to the Hebrews, but I believe he was talking to believing Hebrews. He did not just say "brothers", he referred to them as "holy brothers".

The things of the OT did belong to them. And they were Gods chosen people, to carry on the line, through which would come the Messiah.

But where does it state that a non believing Hebrew is with God? The ones the writer was exhorting to be careful, so they would not depart from the living God?

Just because a person is a Hebrew does not mean they are with God. There were many, and are many, unbelieving Hebrews who do not know God.

Matthew 15:7-9
7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"

These are Christs own words. The unbelieving Jews/Hebrews were far from God.

So the question still stands, how can one depart from somewhere they are not?

 

[Nathan]

I think I may understand you now? You believe that by being a Hebrew they have automatic right standing with God, and then they can fall away? Like a birthright?

 

[atpollard]

I think I may understand you now? You believe that by being a Hebrew they have automatic right standing with God, and then they can fall away? Like a birthright?

Holy brothers = brothers set apart as God's possession.
That (holy=set apart) applies to both the biological seed of Jacob (the nation set apart) and the spiritual seed of Abraham (one who is a Jew inwardly). They are both holy (set apart) but they are not holy (set apart) in the same way.

I have no idea (for certain) which the author intended since he is clearly addressing at least some people who were both and warning about some decedents of Jacob who were NOT spiritual children of Abraham. [If that makes sense.]

 

[Nathan]

Holy brothers = brothers set apart as God's possession.
That (holy=set apart) applies to both the biological seed of Jacob (the nation set apart) and the spiritual seed of Abraham (one who is a Jew inwardly). They are both holy (set apart) but they are not holy (set apart) in the same way.

I have no idea (for certain) which the author intended since he is clearly addressing at least some people who were both and warning about some decedents of Jacob who were NOT spiritual children of Abraham. [If that makes sense.]

Why would you say he is addressing some of both?

 

[Nathan]

Don't take this question the wrong way. It's a sincere question.

Is Israel still considered holy by God in the NT?

I know that by nature they are the same as the tree. Symbolized by an olive tree in Romans. But we also, quite clearly see, they that do not believe have been cut off from that tree.

One wonderful thing is that their inclusion will signify the resurrection. So we know God is not done with them, but are they still holy?

Romans 11:13-20
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

 

[atpollard]

Why would you say he is addressing some of both?

At least some of the people the author was speaking to were BOTH biological children of Jacob, and spiritual children of Abraham ... they were saved Jews.

The people he was warning them against, were trying to lead them back to the old system, so were probably unsaved Jews (biological children of Jacob but NOT spiritual children of Abraham)

Saved Jews are "both" (Jews and Saved) and Judiaisers are probably only one (Jews, but not saved).

 

[atpollard]

Don't take this question the wrong way. It's a sincere question.

Is Israel still considered holy by God in the NT?

If that was addressed to me, the question is above my pay grade and one I do not worry about.
God is finished with Israel or not, but either way, that is none of my business.

Who am I to judge another man's servant?

 

[chessman]

Maybe I wasn't clear?

Yes, your replys to my original question have been somewhat unclear. I asked you (twice) exactly what verse/phrase/statements were made in Heb 3 that taught you loss of salvation.

I still don't exactly know your answer. You pointed to verses 12 - 15 and stated you think the Hebrew author's use of "brothers" means they were believers in Christ, versus blood brothers. I disagree and showed several examples from the immediate context in the preceding verses that indicate it was a flesh/blood brotherly relationship he spoke of. But even if he did mean a spiritual relationship, I still don't see loss of salvation in this passage.

You mentioned "falling away" and we agree on it's meaning.

You asked about my view of them (un-believing brothers) being with God (yet unsaved) and I provided Biblical evidence that God indeed is with the Hebrews, even disobedient/unbelieving Hebrews.

Now you say that "falling away" does not mean loss of salvation to you. So yes, I'm confused why you originally said Heb 3 shows loss of salvation.

I do not think it means to "loose" salvation - in that tense. I think it means that they turn from the path that leads to salvation.

BTW, You didn't answer my one question post:

Romans 9:3-5 (LEB) For I could wish myself to be accursed from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my fellow countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the temple service, and the promises, to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen. ​

Do you think Paul is talking about his brothers in Christ here or his brothers according to the flesh?

 

[Nathan]

Yes, your replys to my original question have been somewhat unclear. I asked you (twice) exactly what verse/phrase/statements were made in Heb 3 that taught you loss of salvation.

I still don't exactly know your answer. You pointed to verses 12 - 15 and stated you think the Hebrew author's use of "brothers" means they were believers in Christ, versus blood brothers. I disagree and showed several examples from the immediate context in the preceding verses that indicate it was a flesh/blood brotherly relationship he spoke of. But even if he did mean a spiritual relationship, I still don't see loss of salvation in this passage.

You mentioned "falling away" and we agree on it's meaning.

You asked about my view of them (un-believing brothers) being with God (yet unsaved) and I provided Biblical evidence that God indeed is with the Hebrews, even disobedient/unbelieving Hebrews.

Now you say that "falling away" does not mean loss of salvation to you. So yes, I'm confused why you originally said Heb 3 shows loss of salvation.


BTW, You didn't answer my one question post:

My apologies. In Romans 9 he was referring to the flesh, not Christ. The ones who are separated from God because of unbelief in Christ. Which would mean they are "cut off" according to him later on in the following discourse. Which then would mean they cannot depart from God, as the writer warns in Hebrews because you cannot depart from somewhere you are not. The unbelievers, Jew or Gentile, are not with God therefore they cannot depart.

Hebrews 3:12 warns of the loss of salvation(ultimately) if one departs from the living God. That is where I "find" my thought.

What we have to realize is Christ is Salvation. Salvation is not a thing, it's a Person. If you depart from Him, you depart Salvation. Using the ESV language, if you fall away from Him, you fall away from Salvation.

Luke 1:68-69
68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people
69 and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David,

Romans 13:11
Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

Hebrews 5:7-10
7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

No offense, but you have not provided any passages that show God is still "with" Israel. I do believe He still has a plan for them, but it is quite clear that when the rejected Jesus as the messiah they were rejecting God.

You can not depart something you have already departed from. Rejection is departing.

 

[Nathan]

If that was addressed to me, the question is above my pay grade and one I do not worry about.
God is finished with Israel or not, but either way, that is none of my business.

Who am I to judge another man's servant?

I assure you God is not finished with Israel. I also assure you that is not a judgment.

 

[Nathan]

What I mean by "loose" is that you can't loose Christ. You can fall away, depart Him. But I assure you that Chist is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

It is commonly referred to as "loosing salvation", and I don't doubt that I have used that term before, I was just trying to clarify my position on it. Sorry it was confusing. It often is when salvation has been looked at as an object for so long.

 

[chessman]

No offense, but you have not provided any passages that show God is still "with" Israel.

Romans 10:21 (LEB But about Israel he says, “The whole day long I held out my hands to a disobedient and resistant people.”

Romans 11:1 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
​

Do you think God is not still with Israel, holding out His hand? I don't.

Hebrews 3:12 warns of the loss of salvation(ultimately) if one departs from the living God. That is where I "find" my thought

Okay, but I find that claiming you lost something you never actually had somewhat beside the point.

I do not think it means to "loose" salvation - in that tense. I think it means that they turn from the path that leads to salvation

Yes, the Bible warns people (Hebrews and Gentiles) not to turn from the path that leads to salvation.

That's my view too.

Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Nathan]

Thank you for the conversation

*edit - I do think God still holds out His hand to Israel. For sure!

 

[WIP]

What I mean by "loose" is that you can't loose Christ. You can fall away, depart Him. But I assure you that Chist is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

It is commonly referred to as "loosing salvation", and I don't doubt that I have used that term before, I was just trying to clarify my position on it. Sorry it was confusing. It often is when salvation has been looked at as an object for so long.

Quick question for clarification. Do you intentionally use "loose" here or is that a typo and should be "lose?"

 

[Nathan]

Quick question for clarification. Do you intentionally use "loose" here or is that a typo and should be "lose?"

Typo

 

[Johann!@#]

I am having trouble understanding what you mean by "They will have immortality and incorruptibility". When/where/how do they get this, and most importantly why?

1 Corinthians 15:53–54 — Key Greek Verbs and Nouns on Incorruptibility and Immortality

1. ἐνδύω (endyō) – "to put on" or "clothe oneself"
Form in v.53: ἐνδύσασθαι — aorist middle infinitive
Form in v.54: ἐνδύσηται — aorist middle subjunctive, 3rd person singular
The middle voice reflects that the subject acts upon themselves (i.e., they clothe themselves).
This verb conveys metaphorical transformation — the perishable and mortal will be "clothed" with something new.
It is the same verb used in Romans 13:14 ("put on the Lord Jesus Christ") and Galatians 3:27 ("put on Christ").

2. ἀφθαρσία (aphtharsia) – "incorruptibility" or "imperishability"
Form: accusative singular feminine noun (ἀφθαρσίαν)
Root: from ἀ- (a-, “not”) + φθορά (phthora, “corruption” or “decay”)
Lexical meaning: not subject to decay, eternal, morally pure
Used in Romans 2:7 ("seek for glory and honor and incorruptibility") and 2 Timothy 1:10 ("brought life and incorruptibility to light through the gospel").
In context, it refers to the resurrection body no longer subject to decay or death.

3. ἀθανασία (athanasia) – "immortality"
Form: accusative singular feminine noun (ἀθανασίαν)
Root: from ἀ- (a-, “not”) + θάνατος (thanatos, “death”)
Lexical meaning: deathlessness, eternal life, undying state
Also used in 1 Timothy 6:16 ("who alone possesses immortality").
In this passage it denotes the transformation of the mortal body into one that cannot die.

Summary of constructions in 1 Corinthians 15:53–54
ἐνδύσασθαι ἀφθαρσίαν - to clothe oneself with incorruptibility
ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν - to clothe oneself with immortality
ἐνδύσηται ἀθανασίαν -when it will be clothed with immortality

Each phrase describes what happens to the believer's body at the resurrection: it must undergo a complete change of nature, from corruptible and mortal to incorruptible and immortal.

1 CORINTHIANS 15

J.

 

[JLB]

Jhn 15:1-6
1. I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

This thread is from 2017.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


Simple truths from this passage include:

This passage is dealing with people who are saved; who are “in Christ”.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Jesus warns His disciples about remaining in Him.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;

Those who remain in Him will become fruitful.

• He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;

Those who do not remain in Him will wither and and will be gathered up and thrown into the fire.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Here is how this same apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

First, let me state what I mean by "salvation."
By "salvation" I mean "having eternal life."

Jhn 15:1-6
1. I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The passage is an extended metaphor in which the Father is represented by the vinedresser; Jesus is represented by the vine; and His disciples are represented by the branches. It is an agricultural metaphor with which the disciples, as well as the general public, would be familiar.

V.1
The Vine (Jesus) is the source of life for the branches. (Jhn 1:4)
The branches (disciples) get their nourishment from the vine and have life by being "in Christ", being connected to the vine. (Gal 2:20; Rom 6:23)
The purpose of the branches is to bear fruit. (otherwise, why plant a vineyard?)

V.2
The Father removes (NIV: "Cuts off") from Christ every disciple who does not bear fruit. ( 2 PE 1:5-10)
And He "prunes" those disciples who do produce fruit so that they will be more fruitful.
Pruning is a procedure by which a vinedresser removes excess foliage which is not necessary for the health of the vine but which uses nourishment which could better be used for producing fruit. These would be like the "thorns" in the parable of the sower (Luke 8) which choked the plant and prevented it from being fruitful.
In order to have eternal life (be saved) one must be united to Christ or, "in Christ." (1Jo 5:12)
Someone who is "in Christ" (in the vine) has eternal life.
Someone who has been cut off from the vine no longer has eternal life.

V.4 This contains the instruction of Jesus to His disciples to remain (abide) in Him. The fact that He gives this instruction of necessity includes the possibility that they might not remain in Him. Otherwise, if it were impossible for them not to abide in Christ, there would be no reason to tell them to do so.

V.6 This verse tells us the consequence of not remaining in Christ. He is cast out, gathered up, and thrown into the fire.
This is a warning that those who do not remain in Christ will be cast into hell.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

I think that, on the basis of the Old Testament, Jesus uses the figurative picture of the vine as the whole people of God, not just true believers:

Jdg_9:12 And the trees said to the vine, ‘You come and reign over us.’
Jdg_9:13 But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my wine that cheers God and men and go hold sway over the trees?’

Psa 80:7 Restore us, O God of hosts; let your face shine, that we may be saved!
Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine....

 

[Randy]

First, let me state what I mean by "salvation."
By "salvation" I mean "having eternal life."

Jhn 15:1-6
1. I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The passage is an extended metaphor in which the Father is represented by the vinedresser; Jesus is represented by the vine; and His disciples are represented by the branches. It is an agricultural metaphor with which the disciples, as well as the general public, would be familiar.

V.1
The Vine (Jesus) is the source of life for the branches. (Jhn 1:4)
The branches (disciples) get their nourishment from the vine and have life by being "in Christ", being connected to the vine. (Gal 2:20; Rom 6:23)
The purpose of the branches is to bear fruit. (otherwise, why plant a vineyard?)

V.2
The Father removes (NIV: "Cuts off") from Christ every disciple who does not bear fruit. ( 2 PE 1:5-10)
And He "prunes" those disciples who do produce fruit so that they will be more fruitful.
Pruning is a procedure by which a vinedresser removes excess foliage which is not necessary for the health of the vine but which uses nourishment which could better be used for producing fruit. These would be like the "thorns" in the parable of the sower (Luke 8) which choked the plant and prevented it from being fruitful.
In order to have eternal life (be saved) one must be united to Christ or, "in Christ." (1Jo 5:12)
Someone who is "in Christ" (in the vine) has eternal life.
Someone who has been cut off from the vine no longer has eternal life.

V.4 This contains the instruction of Jesus to His disciples to remain (abide) in Him. The fact that He gives this instruction of necessity includes the possibility that they might not remain in Him. Otherwise, if it were impossible for them not to abide in Christ, there would be no reason to tell them to do so.

V.6 This verse tells us the consequence of not remaining in Christ. He is cast out, gathered up, and thrown into the fire.
This is a warning that those who do not remain in Christ will be cast into hell.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

I tend to think the children cut off from Christ were those Israelites who couldn't believe in the truth.
Those children who couldn't believe in the truth Jesus testified to were cut off and Jesus introduced a new covenant in His blood.
“First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

Denial is the means of one being cut off from belonging to God.

Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. (Christ and those found in Him are ONE)

Those God currently calls His Children. Whether one is Jew or gentile, whoever calls on the Lord will be saved.


children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.