John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[JLB]

Thanks.

The saints are the sons of the light. The highest in God.

Holy ones.

 

[JLB]

But you err in saying that angels are sons of God, since writer of Heb. wrote "to which of the angels did God say 'you are my son, today I have begotten you?'

Angels are indeed sons of God.

Angels are not begotten sons of God.

Only Jesus is the Only begotten Son of God.

• for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

 

[Randy]

My shoe is of God. If all believers are saints, the verse you replied to, is not true. Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;". The sons of God are the angels. God is not human so his sons the angels are not humans as well. Here is a verse you can think about: Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.". Do you think those sons of God that came, are humans? What Satan have to do with humans? You think about logic, they are not humans, but angels, as Satan. And it is said "the sons of God", not that there is other sons of God, humans. Others are childs of God, as interpreted by scripture, those who have the Holy Spirit, by logic as well. Who are humans indeed. Adopted sons of God, not original, as the angels of God. You think about logic. God have his sons, the angels, and they are only called so. Scripture can say they are ministering spirits servants of humans, but only in New Testament, which is different kind of spirit. This is not the whole Bible, there is also Old Testament, not less important. You cannot take only what New Testament saying, without have in mind the whole Bible. It is said also angels are little higher than humans. But also, they are not humans, and have wings. How they can be lower than humans and not higher? Do humans have wings? Are they strong as the angels in spirit and spiritual body in afterlife? Do they have swords, are they part of the army of God? Are they pure as the angels? God is not human as well, this is why he is higher than humans. So, his sons are not humans. It is said in Old Testament he have wings as well. No one ever seen God Jesus said, because human now or in afterlife cannot see God, even being a saint, and the verse saying why: Exodus 33:20 "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.". Yet it is written in Bible, the angels watching his face always. Because they are not humans, and can see him. Because they are his sons. Old Testament is correct. Salvation is a gift of God for those who obey God, else all would be saved. Who don't want a good eternal life? And until people have free will, they can sin and turn from God. Think about it, is it not possible? Satan, the greatest angel turn from God. Who indeed was holy before. Humans are lower than angels according to Bible. About God keeping your salvation, this is another thing. He will keep you if you are a saint, but born again is just new spirit within you. It can fall. Not all are saints. Believers will never be the sons of God. Human nature is not angelic nature. Moses calling them so which means children of God. Another word, that cannot be used in the same way, as sons of Gods. I don't have wicked spirits in me. Demon cannot live in you, if you are saved. Demons live in people that are not of God. I just told, that demons are wicked spirits that are in people in order to make them sin. And this happens by being in them, and they take their evilness and sin. While Holy Spirit is holy and being in them, makes them do holy works. The law are the first two commandments, love God and neighbor, as Jesus said. The rich man asked Jesus what to do to go to Heaven he said keep the commandments. Jesus never changes, and his replies are for all. No, it is talking about fornication, not about relationships. No one can heal people, without being fully in God. Born again does not means saint. Saint is one who have halo. Not all in Heaven have halo. Which is to say, there is more Heavens in Bible, maybe there is a Heaven where all have halo, but not the lowest. It does not matter if one is atheist, for salvation. Because he is not of God. While believer, even if distrust God, he sent his Christ to die for him, so he can be saved. Only to believer it matters the sacrifice of Christ. Also they must be baptized. Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.". See? "That believeth", atheist not believe. And is not baptized.

Those who God calls His children.
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

In another context God is the Father of all living beings as His Spirit gave birth to all other spirits. So, Angels in the OT can be truthfully stated as the Sons of God. Though Jesus referred to them as the Angels of God and Himself as the Son.

God, our Father

 

[Randy]

Well, I bring there my opinion. I always use scripture.
Believe me, whatever it preaches, no matter who, cannot suit me. My opinion is on first place for me and I will use only my opinion whatever I am talking! Sorry to dissapoint you, but this is me. You can seek saints and angels, but if you talk with me you will have my opinion.

Thats Ok, but expect disagreement in some matters. These forums are full of disagreements.
As only the books of the canon are considered authoritative in matters of faith and practice.
Even so some matters remain a matter of debate, such as Calvinism vs Arminianism.

The Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox New Testament canons are identical.

We compare what is stated as one's understanding to the Canon. The Canon doesn't change.

The test to see if you're in the faith Paul spoke of is to examine yourself to check if the Spirit of Christ is in you. This applies to all, that is if one does not have the Spirit of Christ in them, they are not in the faith and do not belong to Christ and vice versa.

Those born of God have been sealed in Christ by the Spirit. God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him.

"We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

 

[Randy]

Why this strawman tdidmas?
Who said I could save myself without faith?
Who said I could do anything without Jesus?
And why discuss ME?
I'm discussing theology here.

Paul taught the obedience of faith.
§Romans 1:5
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Let's make this very clear so that you do not take out of context what I write:
AFTER we are born again....
we are REQUIRED to obey God.
Those that DO NOT believe in God....
are not required to obey.

Jesus taught that we are to do the will of the Father.
Jesus taught good works.
Just as Paul did.
If you do not agree, please post some verses that state that it is not necessary to obey God...or the teachings of Jesus - which is the same.

Matthew 7:19
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 25:44-46
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


JESUS taught that we are to obey Him.
To bear good fruit.
To do the will of the Father.
To ACT on His words/teachings.
To do good works for mankind.

Jesus taught this...
not me.

If you believe obedience to God is not necessary, some verses stating this would be helpful.

At what point does justification move from faith to good works? We start by the Spirit and finish with works is that what you believe?
God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him. We believe in the Son. The obedience of faith as Jesus defined as the work of God.
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

I have been sealed in Christ by the Spirit. In Him I have no sin. I'm clean. My sins have been taken away. It's a continuous state. I'm a new creation. The only gift of God that changes our being.

To love others as Christ loved 24/7 is a work in progress. I'm still working toward that perfection, but I keep the commands I showed you as well as abstaining from sexual immorality.

I know I'm not free to sin and Jesus is the only way to the Father. I cannot unknow that ever. I could lie and deny Him but I'm not insane knowing the eternal consequences at stake besides I have loved Him as far back as my memory goes and such a thing would not even enter my mind to do so.

From the time one is born into the world up to the point where they are sealed in Christ by the Spirit they are vulnerable to fall away no matter what one may proclaim with their lips. But once one is sealed in Christ by the Spirit they will never perish. The one begotten of God keeps those born of God safe and the evil one cannot harm them. They cannot and will not continue to sin BECAUSE Gods seed remains in them.

I don't wake up every day to think up good works I need to perform to keep myself saved. I do need to consider to treat others as I myself would want to be treated knowing with full assurance of the good deposit that my inheritance is being kept for me by God. Also knowing the least is the greatest. Becoming humble that we may become rich.

 

[GodsGrace]

At what point does justification move from faith to good works?

Immediately thereafter.
When justification ends (which is instantaneous)
sanctification begins.

Sanctification requires good works.

2 Timothy 2:21
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
1 Peter 1:2
2According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Hebrews 10:14
14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

We start by the Spirit and finish with works is that what you believe?
God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him. We believe in the Son. The obedience of faith as Jesus defined as the work of God.
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Then why did you ask me this right above?

At what point does justification move from faith to good works?

It sounds like you believe that you are automatically justified and sanctified and saved forever
whether you obey or not.

If this is NOT what you believe,,,
AGAIN....why are we debating this?

Why is it so difficult to just say that born again believers are required to obey God?

I have been sealed in Christ by the Spirit. In Him I have no sin. I'm clean. My sins have been taken away. It's a continuous state. I'm a new creation. The only gift of God that changes our being.

Sealed by the spirit would get us into OSAS and I really don't care to go there.
We are sealed by our baptism,
but we're free to fall from our faith
deny God
whenever we want to.

To love others as Christ loved 24/7 is a work in progress. I'm still working toward that perfection, but I keep the commands I showed you as well as abstaining from sexual immorality.

So when are you going to start to love others?
You're not doing it yet?
You're expecting to reach perfection one day?
You keep the 10 commandments?
Good.

So no other good works??
What do you think a good work is?

I know I'm not free to sin and Jesus is the only way to the Father. I cannot unknow that ever. I could lie and deny Him but I'm not insane knowing the eternal consequences at stake besides I have loved Him as far back as my memory goes and such a thing would not even enter my mind to do so.

Good.
So why not teach to others what you know?
That if we love God we must obey Him and do good works to further the Kingdom of God.
I'm sure that you know that Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of God more than anything else.
He wanted to create a better world.

From the time one is born into the world up to the point where they are sealed in Christ by the Spirit they are vulnerable to fall away

What does one fall away from if he is not in Christ yet??

no matter what one may proclaim with their lips. But once one is sealed in Christ by the Spirit they will never perish. The one begotten of God keeps those born of God safe and the evil one cannot harm them. They cannot and will not continue to sin BECAUSE Gods seed remains in them.

Paul and Jesus do not agree with you.
Falling away happens AFTER one is saved.
Before one is saved, there is nothing to fall away from.

AFTER one is saved, THEN it becomes possible to fall away.

Hebrews 6:
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,,,,

I don't wake up every day to think up good works I need to perform to keep myself saved.

That's unfortunate because it's what Jesus taught.

A faith without work is a dead faith.

James 2:26
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I do need to consider to treat others as I myself would want to be treated knowing with full assurance of the good deposit that my inheritance is being kept for me by God. Also knowing the least is the greatest. Becoming humble that we may become rich.

Well Randy,,,those are good works.

So why do you keep fighting it?

 

[Randy]

Immediately thereafter.
When justification ends (which is instantaneous)
sanctification begins.

It's where it ends for you. Do you keep a list of good works to justify yourself?

Sanctification requires good works.

2 Timothy 2:21
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
1 Peter 1:2
2According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Hebrews 10:14
14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

By the Spirit is by God.

Then why did you ask me this right above?

This is the will of the Father to believe in His Son. Obedience of FAITH. God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him.

It sounds like you believe that you are automatically justified and sanctified and saved forever
whether you obey or not.

It should read like I believe that I am saved by GRACE through FAITH not WORKS. Show me where I stated I'm free to sin. If I lived a life of sin that would show I don't know Christ despite what I state. Those who continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth should expect judgment and show themselves as still slaves to sin.

If this is NOT what you believe,,,
AGAIN....why are we debating this?

Why is it so difficult to just say that born again believers are required to obey God?

Why is it so hard to know those born again WILL obey God. They will not and cannot continue to sin.
Jude 1:24

Sealed by the spirit would get us into OSAS and I really don't care to go there.
We are sealed by our baptism,
but we're free to fall from our faith
deny God
whenever we want to.

Yet Jesus stated never perish. If He gives eternal life to one who afterwards perishes then you must believe what He states is not always true. He also emphasized with His statement no one can snatch them out of my hands.

So when are you going to start to love others?

I said 24/7. I do love others, but it pales compared to Christs love there is always room for improvement in my thinking.

You're not doing it yet?
You're expecting to reach perfection one day?
You keep the 10 commandments?
Good.

I'm working for perfection not sanctification or justification which is by God.

So no other good works??
What do you think a good work is?

And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

The gifts of the Spirit are also given out by Christ for good works but that is to those who have already been appointed to eternal life.

Good.
So why not teach to others what you know?
That if we love God we must obey Him and do good works to further the Kingdom of God.
I'm sure that you know that Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of God more than anything else.
He wanted to create a better world.

What does one fall away from if he is not in Christ yet??

There are those who believe for a while then fall away because they have no root.

Paul and Jesus do not agree with you.
Falling away happens AFTER one is saved.
Before one is saved, there is nothing to fall away from.

Fall away from the truth. Those born of God cannot be deceived away from Christ.

AFTER one is saved, THEN it becomes possible to fall away.

Hebrews 6:
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,,,,

Judas is a good example of this and the only one Jesus lost for the reason He gave. Judas was not born again.

That's unfortunate because it's what Jesus taught.

Thats not all He taught is it?
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

A faith without work is a dead faith.

Hebrews 11-by faith. By faith the man on the cross next to Jesus asked Jesus to remember Him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. What works did he perform to have His sins forgiven?

James 2:26
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

You need to qualify works as our righteousness is by faith from first to last. God knows those who believe in their heart and love Him.
A Sign of true salvation:
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now, I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

Well Randy,,,those are good works.

So why do you keep fighting it?

I'm not fighting anything. I have confidence that God will keep me from falling. I have been appointed to eternal life. I live like a believer.

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's where it ends for you. Do you keep a list of good works to justify yourself?

It's where it ends for EVERYONE.

By the Spirit is by God.

This is the will of the Father to believe in His Son. Obedience of FAITH. God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him.

It should read like I believe that I am saved by GRACE through FAITH not WORKS. Show me where I stated I'm free to sin. If I lived a life of sin that would show I don't know Christ despite what I state. Those who continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth should expect judgment and show themselves as still slaves to sin.

Why is it so hard to know those born again WILL obey God. They will not and cannot continue to sin.
Jude 1:24



Yet Jesus stated never perish. If He gives eternal life to one who afterwards perishes then you must believe what He states is not always true. He also emphasized with His statement no one can snatch them out of my hands.

I said 24/7. I do love others, but it pales compared to Christs love there is always room for improvement in my thinking.

I'm working for perfection not sanctification or justification which is by God.

And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

The gifts of the Spirit are also given out by Christ for good works but that is to those who have already been appointed to eternal life.

There are those who believe for a while then fall away because they have no root.

Fall away from the truth. Those born of God cannot be deceived away from Christ.

Judas is a good example of this and the only one Jesus lost for the reason He gave. Judas was not born again.

Thats not all He taught is it?
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Hebrews 11-by faith. By faith the man on the cross next to Jesus asked Jesus to remember Him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. What works did he perform to have His sins forgiven?

You need to qualify works as our righteousness is by faith from first to last. God knows those who believe in their heart and love Him.
A Sign of true salvation:
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now, I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”



I'm not fighting anything. I have confidence that God will keep me from falling. I have been appointed to eternal life. I live like a believer.

A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit.

Great.
God will keep you from falling.

WHY didn't He keep from falling those that have left the faith?

Why do you insist on stating that falling from the faith is impossible when Paul and JESUS warn against this?

WHERE did you learn the unbiblical idea of OSAS??

We're not discussing YOU personally here...which is what you seem to think.

Please provide scripture stating that it is impossible to lose our salvation once we become born again.

Thanks.

 

[Randy]

It's where it ends for EVERYONE.




Great.
God will keep you from falling.

WHY didn't He keep from falling those that have left the faith?

Why do you insist on stating that falling from the faith is impossible when Paul and JESUS warn against this?

WHERE did you learn the unbiblical idea of OSAS??

We're not discussing YOU personally here...which is what you seem to think.

Please provide scripture stating that it is impossible to lose our salvation once we become born again.

Thanks.

Grace is what I see and what I speak of. It wasn't Paul but the grace of God in Paul.
I cannot fall from the truth. If I stated Jesus wasn't the Christ, the Son of God it would be me lying. We not only believe in Him but KNOW Him. Knowing the Father and Jesus is eternal life.
And in knowing Him I choose not to sin with the aide of the Spirit in me. Guarding the good deposit that was entrusted to me. This is a sign of a believer. One who knows the truth with certainty.

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

I have shown shall never perish. I have shown cannot and will not continue to sin.

What you state is someone who believes then comes to a point where they no longer believe.
Someone who leaves or falls away from the truth. I'm stating the one who is sealed in Christ by the Spirit cannot fall away from the truth. God keeps them safe and the evil one cannot harm them. If you want to state fall away by continuing to sin even though they know the truth your free to do so but that is highly debatable and highly unlikely in my mind as just the opposite is written of those born of God.

God grants repentance that leads to the knowledge of the truth. (even this repentance is by grace)

When Jesus states those that belong to God hear what God states, He's speaking of believing in that TRUTH.
Jesus testified to the truth but those that didn't belong to God couldn't accept and believe in that TRUTH.

How could one born of God NOT know Jesus lives?
Jesus -My sheep hear my voice. They follow me.

We cannot be deceived away from Him is what I believe and know.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of the One who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I shall lose none, but shall raise it up on the last day. 40 And this is the will of the One who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him shall have everlasting life; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Theres good fruit and bad fruit. Is it really the lack of good fruit or the works of bad fruit that bring judgment?

 

[George1]

Why do you argue about losing a born again status. This is something God gives you, and it can be lost if you don't want it, so you sin and it is removed. But this is not the perfection that is achieved only through Theosis, becoming more and more like Christ in this life and in the afterlife.

Philippians 3:12-16

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Paul not counted himself already perfect. Theosis is the purpose of human life and afterlife. To become more and more like Christ, which is to say perfect.

 

[Randy]

I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

I believe He is to get what He desires.
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

 

[George1]

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Unto the end means unto death.

 

[follower]

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Unto the end means unto death.

or the time Jesus returns to save His people. God Willing some faithful may still be here.
Meanwhile,
those who do not endure, those who go to forums for pleasantries and comfort and support in an unenduring lifestyle, what for them ? They perish.

 

[GodsGrace]

or the time Jesus returns to save His people. God Willing some faithful may still be here.
Meanwhile,
those who do not endure, those who go to forums for pleasantries and comfort and support in an unenduring lifestyle, what for them ? They perish.

You can find comfort and support in a Forum.
It depends in which sub-forum you wish to post.
I like theology and apologetics....
so I get a lot of push-back.
But I don't mind...I post scripture and anyone can take it or leave it.
After the Reformation Christianity ran into trouble.
Different ideas, different teachings...
hundreds of denominations.
THIS is not what Jesus wanted.
He wanted One church with One teaching.
And before the Reformation?
That was a problem too.
The church that was from the beginning wandered and lost its way.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I believe in Sheol (the grave, state of dead). A place where all dead going, except very rarely the saints, that not taste death (Sheol) that Jesus said. They don't have food, they can't visit earth and they have Guardian Spirits that limit their free will. I think Catholicism call it Purgatory, and Orthodoxy Hell. It is temporary, because there they are tormented until Jesus return. And some avoid it, with spiritual practice on earth that is against Christ, but then they make pacts with the devils and cannot be saved when Jesus return, to temporary avoid Hell, they put there themselves permanently.

How can you support these beliefs with Bible verses, George1? I'm interested.

 

[GodsGrace]

Grace is what I see and what I speak of. It wasn't Paul but the grace of God in Paul.
I cannot fall from the truth.

Paul doesn't agree with you and I've posted enough verses that you should stop and learn from Paul.

If I stated Jesus wasn't the Christ, the Son of God it would be me lying. We not only believe in Him but KNOW Him. Knowing the Father and Jesus is eternal life.
And in knowing Him I choose not to sin with the aide of the Spirit in me. Guarding the good deposit that was entrusted to me. This is a sign of a believer. One who knows the truth with certainty.

The above has nothing to do with what I'm posting.

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

So?
If you believe this WHY don't you obey Jesus and teach what HE taught to His Apostles??
Why teach something different than what Jesus taught?

I have shown shall never perish. I have shown cannot and will not continue to sin.

Everyone IN CHRIST will not perish.
Otherwise Jesus is contradicting Himself.
THOSE IN HIM will NEVER perish.

I posted John 15:2
I posted Luke 8:13
and other teachings from Jesus Himself.

If you don't care to know what he taught..so be it.

What you state is someone who believes then comes to a point where they no longer believe.
Someone who leaves or falls away from the truth. I'm stating the one who is sealed in Christ by the Spirit cannot fall away from the truth.

Those that feel away THOUGHT they were sealed too.
A believer is a believer.

Paul and Jesus taught that we can fall away and must endure to the end.

God keeps them safe and the evil one cannot harm them. If you want to state fall away by continuing to sin even though they know the truth your free to do so but that is highly debatable and highly unlikely in my mind as just the opposite is written of those born of God.

It might be highly debatable in YOUR mind.
How about learning what Jesus taught instead?
Maybe Jesus taught what He taught for a reason?
Maybe so we could be careful to remain saved?

God grants repentance that leads to the knowledge of the truth. (even this repentance is by grace)

Nothing to do with this discussion.

When Jesus states those that belong to God hear what God states, He's speaking of believing in that TRUTH.
Jesus testified to the truth but those that didn't belong to God couldn't accept and believe in that TRUTH.

Of course. Who says otherwise?
1 cor 2.14

How could one born of God NOT know Jesus lives?
Jesus -My sheep hear my voice. They follow me.

No bearing on this discussion.

We cannot be deceived away from Him is what I believe and know.

Then Paul must have been mistaken, and other writers too.

Paul taught that we could be deceived away from God:

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of the One who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I shall lose none, but shall raise it up on the last day. 40 And this is the will of the One who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him shall have everlasting life; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Of course.
1. Jesus does not turn anyone away.
John 3:16

2. Jesus will lose none of those given to Him.
But we are free at any time to walk away from Him or return to a life of sin.



3. Note what the verses states: WHO SEES the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM shall have everlasting life.

We must be BELIEVING in Jesus at the time of our death.
Matthew 24:13
13He who endures TILL THE END will be saved.



1 Timothy 4:16
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Paul taught that we are to PERSEVERE in our faith and not FALL AWAY from it.
1 Timothy 4.1

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Correct. The sheep of Jesus hear His voice and FOLLOW Him.

Theres good fruit and bad fruit. Is it really the lack of good fruit or the works of bad fruit that bring judgment?

Here's what brings judgment:

John 5:28-29 Jesus taught:
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Romans 2:5-8 Paul taught:
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

 

[Manasseh]

Here's a link worth reading. Most of us here read a passage of Scripture and filter it though our limited knowledge and experience. Not to mention our present day cultural understanding. Few of us dig deeper and ask the hard questions. The Bible was not written to you and I. Stop trying to understand it from your perspective. On this point, I know I am right. It's a standard principle of biblical interpretation.

http://www.comereason.org/bible-verses-on-salvation.asp
http://www.comereason.org/can-you-lose-your-salvation.asp

I thought both articles were helpful in sorting out the differences of the two sides.

also good: https://www.gty.org/library/questions/QA198
http://www.backtothebible.org/is-my-salvation-in-Christ-secure-or-can-I-lose-my-salvation
"The gift of God is eternal life" (Rom. 6:23). How can eternal life be anything else but eternal? It cannot be lost, forfeited, or sinned away, for "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29). Eternal life once given is an everlasting gift. - See more at: http://www.backtothebible.org/is-my...-can-I-lose-my-salvation#sthash.iexKBy3K.dpuf

Imagine a young believer in Jesus reading the endless debate and getting discouraged in the Faith. How about spending more time on encouraging one another in the faith. You cannot make a biblical case for losing your salvation without ending up with contradicting verses. The Bible doesn't contradict. If you are saved, your salvation is sure.

I don't have to imagine Papa, I've seen first hand how destructive this teaching can be in the lives of new believers. The sad part is, its often those who are deeply alive to God and striving the hardest to conquer the flesh who get hurt the most.

 

[Randy]

Paul doesn't agree with you and I've posted enough verses that you should stop and learn from Paul.

You posted your opinion.
GRACE that Paul wrote about. Paul stated He was set aside from the womb.
Do you think Paul could have been deceived away from Christ? We were given the very same Spirit.
How do you read this? Apparently, God can keep safe His own even in the most sinful of environments. Those 7000 were not deceived away to bow to false Gods. Not by my might nor by my power but by My Spirit says the Lord.

Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”

The above has nothing to do with what I'm posting.


So?
If you believe this WHY don't you obey Jesus and teach what HE taught to His Apostles??
Why teach something different than what Jesus taught?

I'm not. We are not free to sin. We can never be deceived away from the truth if the Spirit of Christ is in us. All the warnings are valid. But Jesus's sheep hear His voice and follow Him.
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

Everyone IN CHRIST will not perish.
Otherwise Jesus is contradicting Himself.
THOSE IN HIM will NEVER perish.

I posted John 15:2
I posted Luke 8:13
and other teachings from Jesus Himself.

If you don't care to know what he taught..so be it.

I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I know Him and have had answers to prayers with words in my mind via the Spirit.
I can never UNKNOW the truth. I keep my conscience clear before God as one who fears God. I'm not free to sin. I understand all the eternal consequences and warnings taught and take them to heart. I am sealed in Christ by the Spirit. Did you think I was teaching a grace that allows us to do anything we want? One who is born of God cannot be deceived away from the truth.

Those that feel away THOUGHT they were sealed too.
A believer is a believer.

A person sealed in Christ knows with certainty the truth. The good deposit guarantees their inheritance.
The Spirit testifies to their spirit that they are the children of God.

Bart Ehrman claimed to be born again and a believer once now he's an enemy of the gospel.
I asked him, "How can one be born again and NOT know Jesus lives?" Our communication ended with that question which he never answered.

Paul and Jesus taught that we can fall away and must endure to the end.

Those born of God such as Paul and the Apostles and countless others did endure to the end by the grace of God.

It might be highly debatable in YOUR mind.
How about learning what Jesus taught instead?
Maybe Jesus taught what He taught for a reason?
Maybe so we could be careful to remain saved?

Nothing to do with this discussion.

Of course. Who says otherwise?
1 cor 2.14

No bearing on this discussion.

Then Paul must have been mistaken, and other writers too.

What Paul states is true. Those who continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth should expect judgement. Those born of God cannot and will not continue to sin.

Paul taught that we could be deceived away from God:

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Jesus=>My sheep hear my voice. They follow me. No one can snatch them out of my hands.

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

No one can snatch Jesus's sheep from His hands. They hear His voice and will not fall away from the truth. We can not be deceived away. He protects us from the evil one. So, no one born of God will leave to follow false teachers. Only those who do not have the Spirit are vulnerable.

Of course.
1. Jesus does not turn anyone away.
John 3:16

2. Jesus will lose none of those given to Him.
But we are free at any time to walk away from Him or return to a life of sin.

Then why did He state He lost none except Judas? Judas fell because of his own doing but Jesus allowed it to happen. The one begotten of God keeps those born of God safe and the evil one cannot harm them. He prayed to the Father to protect His disciple from the evil one. He desires them to be with Him.

3. Note what the verses states: WHO SEES the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM shall have everlasting life.

We must be BELIEVING in Jesus at the time of our death.
Matthew 24:13
13He who endures TILL THE END will be saved.

Heaven is full of such that have endured to the end by God's grace.

1 Timothy 4:16
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Paul taught that we are to PERSEVERE in our faith and not FALL AWAY from it.
1 Timothy 4.1

Correct. The sheep of Jesus hear His voice and FOLLOW Him.

It is not possible for those sealed in Christ to be deceived away from the truth.
If you want the possibility for someone to fall you will need to look elsewhere.

Here's what brings judgment:

John 5:28-29 Jesus taught:
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

He also stated a good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. By their fruit you will recognize them.
That many that state LORD LORD and did works in His name He stated HE NEVER KNEW THEM.

Romans 2:5-8 Paul taught:
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Did you read Romans 1? Does that sound like the church?

 

[onlysaved]

First, let me state what I mean by "salvation."
By "salvation" I mean "having eternal life."

Jhn 15:1-6
1. I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The passage is an extended metaphor in which the Father is represented by the vinedresser; Jesus is represented by the vine; and His disciples are represented by the branches. It is an agricultural metaphor with which the disciples, as well as the general public, would be familiar.

V.1
The Vine (Jesus) is the source of life for the branches. (Jhn 1:4)
The branches (disciples) get their nourishment from the vine and have life by being "in Christ", being connected to the vine. (Gal 2:20; Rom 6:23)
The purpose of the branches is to bear fruit. (otherwise, why plant a vineyard?)

V.2
The Father removes (NIV: "Cuts off") from Christ every disciple who does not bear fruit. ( 2 PE 1:5-10)
And He "prunes" those disciples who do produce fruit so that they will be more fruitful.
Pruning is a procedure by which a vinedresser removes excess foliage which is not necessary for the health of the vine but which uses nourishment which could better be used for producing fruit. These would be like the "thorns" in the parable of the sower (Luke 8) which choked the plant and prevented it from being fruitful.
In order to have eternal life (be saved) one must be united to Christ or, "in Christ." (1Jo 5:12)
Someone who is "in Christ" (in the vine) has eternal life.
Someone who has been cut off from the vine no longer has eternal life.

V.4 This contains the instruction of Jesus to His disciples to remain (abide) in Him. The fact that He gives this instruction of necessity includes the possibility that they might not remain in Him. Otherwise, if it were impossible for them not to abide in Christ, there would be no reason to tell them to do so.

V.6 This verse tells us the consequence of not remaining in Christ. He is cast out, gathered up, and thrown into the fire.
This is a warning that those who do not remain in Christ will be cast into hell.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

1. You do not develop theology based on one passage of scripture.

Therefore vines that are "in Him" are not all saved believers.

 

[George1]

How can you support these beliefs with Bible verses, George1? I'm interested.

Logic.