Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

John 15:2-6 proves damnation can follow salvation

John Zain

Member

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him,
bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


Note: some translations use “Every branch of Mine†in verse 2.

In this metaphor of the true vine, the gardener and the branches, Jesus stated,
“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away†(v. 2)
and that the branches are to “abide in me, and I in you†(v. 4).
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned†(v. 6)

This passage provides a wonderful picture of the believers union with Christ.
We need to note the Greek tenses for the use of “abide†(ESV, Gk. meno)
and the immediate context in this passage. These are:
“Abide in me†(v.4) – a constative aorist imperative, which “may regard the action
[to abide] in its entirety†(Dana & Mantey, 1927/1955, p. 194; Robertson,1932, p. 258).
“Unless it abides in the vine†(v. 4). Present tense, continuous action, i.e. continues to abide.
“Unless you abide in Me†(v. 4). Present tense, continuous action.
“He who abides in Me, and I in him†(v. 5). Present tense, continuous action.
“If anyone does not abide in Me†(v. 6), Present tense, continuous action.

The interpretation is straightforward. We, in union with Christ, are commanded to abide
(remain) in union with Christ and that will continue as long as we continue to abide in Him.
This is not speaking of a Christian who is commanded to abide in Christ as an instant action
and that guarantees one’s eternal state. The eternal salvation state is guaranteed
only as long as the believer continues to abide/remain in union with Christ.

“John thus uses the verb ‘abide’ [remain] to express the need for disciples to continue in
their personal commitment to Jesus; the abiding of Jesus in them is not an automatic process
which is independent of their attitude of Him, but is the reverse side of their abiding in Him.
Just as men are summoned to believe in Jesus, so they are summoned to abide in Jesus,
i.e. to continue believing†(I. Howard Marshall, cited in Ashby, 2002, p. 180).

By use of this vine and gardener metaphor,
John 15:6 makes it clear that the believer who does not continue to abide in Christ,
is thrown away like a branch, gathered up and cast into the fire to burn.
What clearer analogy to damnation, after salvation, could be made?

“Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches
keep in vital union with him†(Robertson, 1932, p. 258).

Remaining “in me [Jesus]†(v. 6), “shows that his primary thought was of apostate Christians
… An unfaithful Christian suffers the fate of an unfruitful branchâ€
(C. K. Barrett, cited in Ashby, 2002, p. 180).

From ... http://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2012/10/23/once-saved-always-saved-or-once-saved-lost-again-2/
 
.......Now, then, what do you professors say who are present here today; you who are so regular in your attendance upon the means of Divine Grace? Will you now search yourselves to see whether you have any fruit? That you may be helped in such an investigation, let me remind you that the Apostle Paul has given us a list of these fruits, in his Fifth Chapter of the Epistle to the Galatians. He says in the 22nd verse, “The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.” Nine kinds of fruit—all of these should be “in us and abound.” Let us question ourselves whether we have any of them.......

Then there is a taking away which is worst of all, when the Master shall say, “Depart, you cursed!” Now, remember, these were respectable people; these were people like you—decent, good people, who attended a place of worship, and contributed, and were very moral, but still they had not Divine Grace in their souls. They had nominal Christianity, but not the Fruit of the Spirit; and what was done with them? “Lord, cannot some mild means be used? How sad to see these branches cut off!” “No,” He says, “if they bring not forth fruit, they must be taken away.” “But, Lord, they never reeled in and out of the gin palace! Lord, they were much too good and much too amiable to be found among the debased and the debauched!” “Take them away; they brought no fruit, and they must be taken away.” “But, Master, they were so diligent in the use of ordinances, they were so constant and regular in the form of prayer!” “They brought forth no fruit,” says He, “take them away.” There is only this one thing for them—if they had, through saving faith been made to bear the Fruit of the Spirit, they would have been saved; but as there was no fruit, take them away.

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols13-15/chs774.pdf
 

Damnation following salvation is an oxymoron.

How crazy is that?!?!
3459-1a86dcde63566be19c19234aaa5bdf5d.jpg
 
John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him,
bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Verse 2 is the sin unto death for Christians. They are not producing fruit, so He takes them Home.

Verses 3-5 Is the choice that we all have as Christians. Walk in the Spirit or not. Your call. We can be carnal believers or we can be spiritual believers and "abide" (Stay in fellowship with Him..1 John 1:9) in Him.

Verse 6 Is The Case of the Pseudo-Branch - The Person Who Acts like a follower of Christ but is Really An Unbeliever (Only God knows this.)
6~~"If anyone does not abide/dwell/Remain in Me
{no union with Christ - an unbeliever probably a 'religious' one
pretending to believe in Christ},
he is cast outside like a branch, and dries up,
and they {angels} gather them up
and throw them into the fire,
and they receive burning {lake of fire judgment on unbelievers}.
 
No disrepect to you but I don't get this at all. I read all the scriptures you posted carefully and nowhere do I see what you imply.
The vine is Christ. We are the branches. Without him we are lost. We cannot bear fruit without him. If we don't abide in him we will be cast off and burned in the fire. Sorry but nowhere does it say or suggest that a person who Christ saves will or can lose that Salvation.
 
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Verse 2 is the sin unto death for Christians. They are not producing fruit, so He takes them Home.

So you are saying "home" for the Christian is in hell?


JLB
 

No disrepect to you but I don't get this at all. I read all the scriptures you posted carefully and nowhere do I see what you imply.
The vine is Christ. We are the branches. Without him we are lost. We cannot bear fruit without him. If we don't abide in him we will be cast off and burned in the fire. Sorry but nowhere does it say or suggest that a person who Christ saves will or can lose that Salvation.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Do you suggest that salvation means burning in fire?


JLB




 
I have no idea what Spurgeon said about what Jesus said.


Ok, I thought maybe you had read that post #4. Never mind. :)

Ok, I see it.

I see the fruit in John 15 as people.

Jesus reproduced Himself in 12 men, so that they could reproduce Christ in their disciples.

This is what the mandate was from the beginning and has never changed.

The Lord told Adam and all mankind to be fruitful and multiple, for the purpose of subduing and having dominion.

The mandate was to reproduce the image and likeness of God.

Jesus demonstrated dominion over everything He encountered, from the weather to the devils.

That is what Adam was called to do.

Jesus came and reconfirmed that call, when He came to restore what Adam lost in the garden.


JLB
 
I have no idea what Spurgeon said about what Jesus said.


Ok, I thought maybe you had read that post #4. Never mind. :)

Ok, I see it.

I see the fruit in John 15 as people.

Jesus reproduced Himself in 12 men, so that they could reproduce Christ in their disciples.

This is what the mandate was from the beginning and has never changed.

The Lord told Adam and all mankind to be fruitful and multiple, for the purpose of subduing and having dominion.

The mandate was to reproduce the image and likeness of God.

Jesus demonstrated dominion over everything He encountered, from the weather to the devils.

That is what Adam was called to do.

Jesus came and reconfirmed that call, when He came to restore what Adam lost in the garden.


JLB

Thanks JLB. I'll think about your interpretation. I definitely had never thought about the fruit being people.
 
How shall we escape...

Keep in mind that the Apostle to the Gentiles DOES speak of Christians being SAVED by FIRE...

Fire in John 15 doesn't necessarily mean being damned or thrown into the lake of fire... it can mean being saved through fire... just like much of Israel shall be saved... through tribulation.

Zech speaks of two thirds (of Israelites) being cut off and the rest being taken through the FIRE...

Clearly not meaning that they're damned, but rather that they are saved through the tribulation...
 
Re: How shall we escape...

Keep in mind that the Apostle to the Gentiles DOES speak of Christians being SAVED by FIRE...

Fire in John 15 doesn't necessarily mean being damned or thrown into the lake of fire... it can mean being saved through fire... just like much of Israel shall be saved... through tribulation.

Zech speaks of two thirds (of Israelites) being cut off and the rest being taken through the FIRE...

Clearly not meaning that they're damned, but rather that they are saved through the tribulation...


11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 1 Corinthians 3:11-13

as compared to -

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


You make a good comparison, however on the one hand we have someone's work that is tested by fire, and on the other hand we have people who are cast themselves and they themselves are burned.

Work being tested as compared to people being cast into the fire.


JLB
 
Re: How shall we escape...

Keep in mind that the Apostle to the Gentiles DOES speak of Christians being SAVED by FIRE...

Fire in John 15 doesn't necessarily mean being damned or thrown into the lake of fire... it can mean being saved through fire... just like much of Israel shall be saved... through tribulation.

Zech speaks of two thirds (of Israelites) being cut off and the rest being taken through the FIRE...

Clearly not meaning that they're damned, but rather that they are saved through the tribulation...


11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 1 Corinthians 3:11-13

as compared to -

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


You make a good comparison, however on the one hand we have someone's work that is tested by fire, and on the other hand we have people who are cast themselves and they themselves are burned.

Work being tested as compared to people being cast into the fire.


JLB

And wouldn't you know, that the great tribulation is the time of testing for the whole world...

The LORD even speaks of casting some into great tribulation doesn't He..?

Just something to consider.. and as usual, I wouldn't pretend to understand all that this entails.. although there are biblical precedents for people being cast INTO the fire which does NOT mandate that they're damned.
 
Re: How shall we escape...

Keep in mind that the Apostle to the Gentiles DOES speak of Christians being SAVED by FIRE...

Fire in John 15 doesn't necessarily mean being damned or thrown into the lake of fire... it can mean being saved through fire... just like much of Israel shall be saved... through tribulation.

Zech speaks of two thirds (of Israelites) being cut off and the rest being taken through the FIRE...

Clearly not meaning that they're damned, but rather that they are saved through the tribulation...


11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 1 Corinthians 3:11-13

as compared to -

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


You make a good comparison, however on the one hand we have someone's work that is tested by fire, and on the other hand we have people who are cast themselves and they themselves are burned.

Work being tested as compared to people being cast into the fire.


JLB

And wouldn't you know, that the great tribulation is the time of testing for the whole world...

The LORD even speaks of casting some into great tribulation doesn't He..?

Just something to consider.. and as usual, I wouldn't pretend to understand all that this entails.. although there are biblical precedents for people being cast INTO the fire which does NOT mandate that they're damned.

Yes sir.
 
Back
Top