John 15:2-6 proves damnation can follow salvation

[Webers_Home]

.

By use of this vine and gardener metaphor, John 15:6 makes it clear that the believer who does not continue to abide in Christ, is thrown away like a branch, gathered up and cast into the fire to burn.

(chuckle) Interpreting the "fire" in Jesus' statement to be hell fire sort of reminds me of when the cops shoot a murderer in a gunfight; then rush him to the hospital to save his life so he can stand trial and be sentenced to death.

The common New Testament Greek word translated "save" means to rescue. Now; if it's true that Christ died for "all" my sins, then God has no grounds upon which to de-rescue me since it is sinners for whom Christ died.

†. Rom 5:7-8 . . God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Ironically it is sin, rather than fruit, that keeps me rescued from the wrath of God because Christ didn't die for fruit-bearing people. So then, should I decide not to produce fruit (whatever that means) I won't be in any more danger of the wrath of God than before; viz: if I was spared the wrath of God before being attached to the vine, then I will remain spared should I choose to detach from the vine.

No; I'm sorry, but the OP's interpretation of John 15:1-6 is inconsistent with the meaning of the Greek word for "save". I simply cannot imagine Christ de-rescuing a sinner from the wrath of God for failing to bear fruit. It would mean that sinners rescued from the wrath of God are on probation; so to speak; viz: if they fail to produce fruit in a timely manner; then they're forced to undergo de-rescue; which makes no sense at all. It would be tantamount to a Coast Guard helicopter unit throwing people back into the sea for refusal to salute the flag. Where would be the humanity in that?

There's more.

According to John 3:36, John 6:47, John 5:24, and 1John 5:13, all believers have eternal life; which is a level of life that's impervious to time, decay, death, and the aging process. So then, all believers are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.

So then, since all believers are impervious to the wages of sin; then I have to ask: On what grounds would God sentence believers to hell? How would He ever justify doing such a thing since every one of them, including the ones who fail to abide in Christ; are immune to the law of sin and death?

†. Rom 8:2 . .The law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

FYI: John 15:1-6 wasn't a public teaching like the Sermon On The Mount. It was, in point of fact, a private teaching with which Jesus instructed his inner circle of hand-picked disciples. So then, only hand-picked insiders are able to correctly interpret his statement. The rest of course are left to their own imaginations as to what he was saying; and of course they always interpret the "fire" in his statement to mean hell fire because they simply don't know any better.

Buen Camino
/

 

[JLB]

FYI: John 15:1-6 wasn't a public teaching like the Sermon On The Mount. It was, in point of fact, a private teaching with which Jesus instructed his inner circle of hand-picked disciples. So then, only hand-picked insiders are able to correctly interpret his statement. The rest of course are left to their own imaginations as to what he was saying; and of course they always interpret the "fire" in his statement to mean hell fire because they simply don't know any better.

Well there you have it.

It all makes sense now.

Whenever Jesus was speaking to the crowds He used parables, of which we don't know what He meant.

and when Jesus was speaking privatly to His disciples, only they the hand picked private disciples knew what he meant.

So no matter what Jesus was saying, and no matter to whom He was speaking, we can't understand anything Jesus said.


Ok, got it.

Your message seems to say, don't bother reading the bible.



JLB

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Your message seems to say, don't bother reading the bible.

The Bible is of little practical use to the average reader because they typically approach it as they would a text book on math or science or cultivating roses or bird watching. But though Jesus' sayings are written down with what appear to be human words; they actually convey nonhuman thoughts.

†. John 6:63 . .The words I have spoken to you are spirit

Spirit words look like human words, they're spelled like human words, and they're pronounced like human words; but they say things that often make no sense to the human mind.

†. 1Cor 2:12-15 . .We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are absurd to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

In other words: God's Spirit is the custodian of Jesus' spirit words so that know-it-all armchair theologians like those commonly infesting internet forums often don't know what they're talking about because they read the Bible with human eyes rather than divine.

†. 1Cor 2:11 . . For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Humans relate to each other very well because all humans have a human mind. But God doesn't have a human mind. He has a nonhuman mind. I should think it is much easier to relate to a maniac than to God.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Sparkey]

What's the topic of this thread again?

It seems to have drifted somewhat...

 

[CORE]

What's the topic of this thread again?

It seems to have drifted somewhat...

it's about damnation following salvation...it's an oxymoron.

If you end up in hell, then obviously you were never saved, were you?

That's the problem with interpreting a metaphor that contradicts what Christ explicitly says in other areas of scripture. - John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

We can interpret these metaphors however we want....people can use this metaphor to "prove" that Christ wasn't deity if they really want to...think about it.

I could say "see! Christ is the vine and the believers are the branches, but why is the Father the gardener (a human separate from the vine) This "proves" that Christ isn't deity. If Christ was Deity, than the Father would be the roots, not the gardener...they should all be physically connected."

But we don't use this verse to argue against Christ's deity, because it contradicts scripture...not to mention that the Spirit tells us that that would just be a bunch of bollocks, just as it tells us that losing our salvation is a bunch of bollocks...not to mention that logic and common sense tells us that you can't "lose" salvation...it's an oxymoron. it's so simple that even a caveman (heathen) can understand.

Let's not forget about the true meaning of the metaphor...that is, to teach us to abide in Christ. To show us how to be fruitful, to tell us that we can't do anything apart from Christ. Why does he tell us all this? It's simple...John 15:11 - "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete." He did not tell us this so that we could live in fear of losing our salvation...as if God is so weak.

Philippians 1:6 "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

This metaphor is just another example of Christ teaching about the difference between false disciples and true disciples...a topic that is taught repeatedly in the Gospel of John.

There are true and false disciples...we only have to look at the following verses to determine which one we are:

2Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

2Pet 1:10
Be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you.

So you see...we don't need people to come in here and misinterpret a metaphor and tell you that you can lose your salvation...God's word is clear - we must examine ourselves.

 

[JLB]

What's the topic of this thread again?

It seems to have drifted somewhat...

it's about damnation following salvation...it's an oxymoron.

If you end up in hell, then obviously you were never saved, were you?

That's the problem with interpreting a metaphor that contradicts what Christ explicitly says in other areas of scripture. - John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

We can interpret these metaphors however we want....people can use this metaphor to "prove" that Christ wasn't deity if they really want to...think about it.

I could say "see! Christ is the vine and the believers are the branches, but why is the Father the gardener (a human separate from the vine) This "proves" that Christ isn't deity. If Christ was Deity, than the Father would be the roots, not the gardener...they should all be physically connected."

But we don't use this verse to argue against Christ's deity, because it contradicts scripture...not to mention that the Spirit tells us that that would just be a bunch of bollocks, just as it tells us that losing our salvation is a bunch of bollocks...not to mention that logic and common sense tells us that you can't "lose" salvation...it's an oxymoron. it's so simple that even a caveman (heathen) can understand.

Let's not forget about the true meaning of the metaphor...that is, to teach us to abide in Christ. To show us how to be fruitful, to tell us that we can't do anything apart from Christ. Why does he tell us all this? It's simple...John 15:11 - "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete." He did not tell us this so that we could live in fear of losing our salvation...as if God is so weak.

Philippians 1:6 "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

This metaphor is just another example of Christ teaching about the difference between false disciples and true disciples...a topic that is taught repeatedly in the Gospel of John.

There are true and false disciples...we only have to look at the following verses to determine which one we are:

2Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

2Pet 1:10
Be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you.

So you see...we don't need people to come in here and misinterpret a metaphor and tell you that you can lose your salvation...God's word is clear - we must examine ourselves.

Let's examine several scriptures that teach us, such as John 15 does.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

and again -


1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:1-12

and again -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14

There are many more scriptures that exhort us to remain steadfast in our faith, and to not depart nor turn away from Christ.

On the other hand, I love the scripture reference you quoted from John 10, it encourages us that as we trust in Him, no one can snatch us away.

However if we choose to turn away, or depart from the living God, then that is altogether different.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Here is the biblical "cutting off" that this scripture warns of- not for those who continue in Gods grace and mercy, but those who turn back to the law and self-righteousness.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ga 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

Ga 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Ga 5:4 Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated [from him,] as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

Those who continue in Gods goodness and grace are forever secure in His Grace, only those who return to the ministry of death and condemnation are subject to being "cut-off" from Christ.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

 

[JLB]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Here is the biblical "cutting off" that this scripture warns of- not for those who continue in Gods grace and mercy, but those who turn back to the law and self-righteousness.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ga 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

Ga 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Ga 5:4 Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated [from him,] as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

Those who continue in Gods goodness and grace are forever secure in His Grace, only those who return to the ministry of death and condemnation are subject to being "cut-off" from Christ.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Amen.

Thank you for proving OSAS is false!


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

What's the topic of this thread again?

It seems to have drifted somewhat...

it's about damnation following salvation...it's an oxymoron.

If you end up in hell, then obviously you were never saved, were you?

That's the problem with interpreting a metaphor that contradicts what Christ explicitly says in other areas of scripture. - John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

We can interpret these metaphors however we want....people can use this metaphor to "prove" that Christ wasn't deity if they really want to...think about it.

I could say "see! Christ is the vine and the believers are the branches, but why is the Father the gardener (a human separate from the vine) This "proves" that Christ isn't deity. If Christ was Deity, than the Father would be the roots, not the gardener...they should all be physically connected."

But we don't use this verse to argue against Christ's deity, because it contradicts scripture...not to mention that the Spirit tells us that that would just be a bunch of bollocks, just as it tells us that losing our salvation is a bunch of bollocks...not to mention that logic and common sense tells us that you can't "lose" salvation...it's an oxymoron. it's so simple that even a caveman (heathen) can understand.

Let's not forget about the true meaning of the metaphor...that is, to teach us to abide in Christ. To show us how to be fruitful, to tell us that we can't do anything apart from Christ. Why does he tell us all this? It's simple...John 15:11 - "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete." He did not tell us this so that we could live in fear of losing our salvation...as if God is so weak.

Philippians 1:6 "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

This metaphor is just another example of Christ teaching about the difference between false disciples and true disciples...a topic that is taught repeatedly in the Gospel of John.

There are true and false disciples...we only have to look at the following verses to determine which one we are:

2Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

2Pet 1:10
Be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you.

So you see...we don't need people to come in here and misinterpret a metaphor and tell you that you can lose your salvation...God's word is clear - we must examine ourselves.

Good post. Eternal security is a KEY doctrine in growing spiritually.

God eternally saved us the moment we believed. We have to live in that truth to grow spiritually.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

When people question the reliability of Jesus' statement, they are actually casting a vote of no-confidence in his competence as a good shepherd.

FYI: Webster's defines "never" as not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not under any condition

NOTE: since John 10:28 is an element of the gospel; then those who refuse to believe Jesus' statement is true, are already damned to hell-- no delay, and no waiting period.

†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves stands condemned already

FYI: eternal life is a level of life that's impervious to time, decay, death, and the aging process. Therefore; the sheep to whom Jesus has given eternal life are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.

Since eternal life is impervious to the wages of sin; then George Muller's interpretation of all those verses he posted in message #27 contradicts the passage below:

†. Rom 8:2 . .The law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

The "law of sin and death" is defined in Rom 6:23.

Buen Camino
/

 

[JLB]

.

John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

When people question the reliability of Jesus' statement, they are actually casting a vote of no-confidence in his competence as a good shepherd.

FYI: Webster's defines "never" as not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not under any condition

NOTE: since John 10:28 is an element of the gospel; then those who refuse to believe Jesus' statement is true, are already damned to hell-- no delay, and no waiting period.

†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves stands condemned already

FYI: eternal life is a level of life that's impervious to time, decay, death, and the aging process. Therefore; the sheep to whom Jesus has given eternal life are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.

Since eternal life is impervious to the wages of sin; then George Muller's interpretation of all those verses he posted in message #27 contradicts the passage below:

†. Rom 8:2 . .The law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

The "law of sin and death" is defined in Rom 6:23.

Buen Camino
/

Thank you for these encouraging scriptures.

Good post!

I would ask you to consider the balance of what Paul taught as you quoted Romans 8:2.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

Here is Romans 8:1 parsed from the original language:

*26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
**Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686
*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of ROM 8: 1 T/ord
oudeis 3762 neu adj nom s ------- nothing 1
ara 0686 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- therefore 2
vuv 3568 ---- adv --- -- ------- now 3
katakrima 2631 neu ---- nom s noun--- condemnation 4
o 3588 mas artl dat p ------- the 5
ev 1722 ---- ---- dat -- prep--- in 6
cristos 5547 mas ---- dat s noun--- Christ 7
insous 2424 mas ---- dat s noun--- Jesus 8
Rom 8:1(NAS)...... The King James version Got Rom 8:1 wrong.

Louw, J. P. (1989; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic edition of the 2nd ed.) (Pages 555-556). New York: United Bible societies.
Vine, W. (1981; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: W.E. Vine; Old Testament edited by F.F. Bruce. (electronic ed.) (Page 222). Old Tappan NJ: Revell.

Corrected translation Of Romans 8:1~~“Consequently now [there is] no condemnation [judgment or punishment] to those in Christ Jesus.”

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Why do christians want to make other christians feel weak, defeated and broken.
Then tell them they are damned forever.
Then say, "you have to be like me if you want to go to heaven"?
This seems like a continual attack from the enemy.

 

[gr8grace]

Why do christians want to make other christians feel weak, defeated and broken.
Then tell them they are damned forever.
Then say, "you have to be like me if you want to go to heaven"?
This seems like a continual attack from the enemy.

For the most part allenwynne, I believe they are sincere, but they are sincerely wrong.

 

[George Muller]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Here is the biblical "cutting off" that this scripture warns of- not for those who continue in Gods grace and mercy, but those who turn back to the law and self-righteousness.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ga 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

Ga 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Ga 5:4 Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated [from him,] as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

Those who continue in Gods goodness and grace are forever secure in His Grace, only those who return to the ministry of death and condemnation are subject to being "cut-off" from Christ.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Amen.

Thank you for proving OSAS is false!


JLB

As I have said many times "in grace" salvation is absolute, and sure. But those who turn from grace have no place to stand and cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[George Muller]

Why do christians want to make other christians feel weak, defeated and broken.
Then tell them they are damned forever.
Then say, "you have to be like me if you want to go to heaven"?
This seems like a continual attack from the enemy.

Be sure that it is brother, it is demonic. But God is raising true ministers of "HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS" and we have power to bring judgment upon these false spirits. Its not always pretty and some who do not understand how to judge the spirits often believe us to be harsh with these wolves in sheeps clothing. But be sure that the true shepherds of Christ, have His Rod for this very reason? To protect the sheep from the wolves, and of course many of the sheep believe these wolves to be sheep, but God has given the true shepherds keen eyes to discern the spirits. So all those who have the desire to harm His humble ones, be warned this day of Gods Judgment against you. Be weary of the Lords shepherds, and repent of your wickedness before Gods Judgment comes upon you.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

This is very easy to explain; but not all that easy to believe because it deals with one of the supernatural aspects of Christianity that doesn't get much press these days. But first off I must caution you to avoid using Rom 8:1 to invalidate passages like John 3:18, John 5:24, John 10:28, and Rom 8:2. That said; here's the explanation:

When believers undergo the Spirit birth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8, they end up with a self that's 110% sinless.

†. 1 John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

But yet; though their Spirit-born self is 110% sinless; their Adam-born self isn't.

†. 1John 1:8-10 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

In other words; it's the believer's Spirit-born self that's in Christ and walks according to the Spirit; while the believer's Adam-born self is not in Christ; and therefore continues to walk according to the flesh. Fortunately this rather curious two-self arrangement is only temporary, and ends with the passing of the believer's Adam-born body; at which time the supernatural circumcision about which Paul wrote at Col 2:11 will really be appreciated.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Mike S]

Why do christians want to make other christians feel weak, defeated and broken.
Then tell them they are damned forever.
Then say, "you have to be like me if you want to go to heaven"?
This seems like a continual attack from the enemy.

They do it in order to feel superior. I believe a true Christian does not put stumbling blocks in place for others while living in the smugnes of self-righteousness. Effective ministry is one that emulates Christ's life of service, sacrifice, and humility. Far too many Christians are too full of their own self-importance to remember the humility part, and what they do they do for their own glory, not the glory of God.

Saint Franciis is attributed with saying "Preach the Gospel always, use words if necessary." He understood a truth some Christians will never get.

 

[JLB]

But those who turn from grace

That statement right there is the point.

For what ever reason they turn.

This makes the OSAS doctrine a doctrine of man not according to the scriptures.


JLB

 

[Elijah674]

God inspired Eccl. 3:14 & Rev. 22:18-19 with the severing of ties with the ex/saved one!

And it is His [LAST WORDS!]

They MUST ALL be saved by Obedient faith. Heb. 11:1-2

--Elijah