John 15:2-6 proves damnation can follow salvation

[JLB]

This is very easy to explain; but not all that easy to believe because it deals with one of the supernatural aspects of Christianity that doesn't get much press these days. But first off I would caution you to avoid using Rom 8:1 to invalidate John 3:18, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:28, Rom 8:2, and 1John 5:13.

I never use a scripture to invalidate another scripture.

I do however show other scriptures to balance our understanding of the truth, the whole truth, not just the part that validates a doctrine of man, which usually encourages a believer to be weak and ineffective as a child of God.

Jesus was holy and requires His followers to be holy and to refrain from being defiled by the world.

Holy, consecrated, set apart.

These are the the words I would ask you to study to show yourself approved.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

Thank God the Lord enabled me to be free from being "overcome" when I was entangled again in the pollutions of the world.


Thank you Lord for your Grace. :amen


JLB

 

[Webers_Home]

I never use a scripture to invalidate another scripture.

You might be surprised at how common that practice is; people do it all the time without even thinking about it; like a knee-jerk reflex.

These are the the words I would ask you to study to show yourself approved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

(chuckle) That's a very popular verse with the anti-OSAS crowd.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Deborah13]

(chuckle) That's a very popular verse with the anti-OSAS crowd.

Would you explain your interpretation of this scripture, please? Thank you.

 

[JLB]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Here is the biblical "cutting off" that this scripture warns of- not for those who continue in Gods grace and mercy, but those who turn back to the law and self-righteousness.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ga 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

Ga 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Ga 5:4 Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated [from him,] as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

Those who continue in Gods goodness and grace are forever secure in His Grace, only those who return to the ministry of death and condemnation are subject to being "cut-off" from Christ.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Amen.

Thank you for proving OSAS is false!


JLB

As I have said many times "in grace" salvation is absolute, and sure. But those who turn from grace have no place to stand and cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hopefully you not will continue to teach or support the doctrine called OSAS.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Amen.

Thank you for proving OSAS is false!


JLB

As I have said many times "in grace" salvation is absolute, and sure. But those who turn from grace have no place to stand and cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hopefully you not will continue to teach or support the doctrine called OSAS.


JLB

Well I have defended the Grace of God, and it cannot fail. A term such as OSAS is of no importance to me. Its kinda like the term "free-will" it has some effect of truth, but misses the main message of the gospel.
"election" is a biblical term, but it is based upon grace. So I don't like these terms that tradition has built, and I hope that sincere believers would move away from such things and allow for an honest discussion on these things. I will also say that "real" grace will have a real effect because its the Spirit. A term or doctrine that does not have real power to transform is a false use of the term "grace".

 

[George Muller]

But those who turn from grace

That statement right there is the point.

For what ever reason they turn.

This makes the OSAS doctrine a doctrine of man not according to the scriptures.


JLB

The scriptures and promises are sure because they are based upon Gods Grace. Now when grace is removed and legalism is taken up by a believer they in effect have cut themselves off from the assurance of salvation. No wonder legalist have no ability to see the sure promises of salvation, they are not supposed to! God does not want a legalist to have confidence in salvation, because they are basing that confidence on their own ability-their own flesh. They cannot inherit "receive" the Kingdom of God. Because its given in grace. Thus Paul says what man has anything that was not first given to him? So no man can Inherit-receive the kingdom except they receive it through grace. It is easier for a harlot than a religious person, because a harlot knows beyond doubt that it must be by Gods grace.

 

[CORE]

Hopefully you not will continue to teach or support the doctrine called OSAS.

I hope that we teach those who profess Christ to examine ourselves to see whether we truly are of the faith...if we are, then God will carry out the good work he began in us to completion... and that work will be expressed in how we live our lives.

We are saved by grace through faith, not by works through fear...

 

[Webers_Home]

.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

(chuckle) That's a very popular verse with the anti-OSAS crowd.

Would you explain your interpretation of this scripture, please? Thank you.

The antecedent of the pronouns "they" and "them" are identified beginning with 2Pet 2:9 as:

1: unrighteous
2: those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature
3: despise authority
4: bold and arrogant
5: not afraid to slander celestial beings
6: blaspheme in matters they do not understand
7: brute beasts
8: creatures of instinct
9: born to be hunted and killed
10: harmful
11: carouse in broad daylight
12: revel in pleasure
13: eyes full of adultery
14: never stop sinning
15: seduce the unstable
16: experts in greed
17: an accursed brood
18: have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor (viz: prophets for profit)
19: springs without water
20: mouth empty, boastful words
21: appeal to the lustful desires of sinful human nature
22: entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.
23: promise people freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity
24: very religious

Peter isn't speaking of your average rank and file pew warmers; but instead, about some rather nefarious Christian luminaries; including, but not limited to: pastors, deacons, deaconesses, counselors, Sunday school teachers, television evangelists, radio evangelists, missionaries, ecclesiastic authorities, et al.

Escaping the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is not the same as undergoing the mandatory Spirit birth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8. It simply means using Christian principles for one's moral compass. There are a pretty good number of luminaries doing that very thing; but they are on the road to hell just as surely as if they were practicing dark arts and worshipping the Devil; because according to the Bible; the practice of Christian principles isn't enough to get people saved-- it only provides them with a whitewash, so to speak.

When whitewashed luminaries lose interest in continuing to practice Christian principles, then is fulfilled the saying "A dog returns to its vomit" and "a sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

The kinds of luminaries about whom Peter wrote didn't become dogs and swine by losing interest in continuing to practice Christian principles; no, they were dogs and swine all along. In other words: no matter how much you bathe a pig; it will still be a pig; and no matter how much you domesticate a dog; it will still be a dog.

Buen Camino
/

 

[gr8grace]

.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

This is very easy to explain; but not all that easy to believe because it deals with one of the supernatural aspects of Christianity that doesn't get much press these days. But first off I must caution you to avoid using Rom 8:1 to invalidate passages like John 3:18, John 5:24, John 10:28, and Rom 8:2. That said; here's the explanation:

When believers undergo the Spirit birth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8, they end up with a self that's 110% sinless.

†. 1 John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

But yet; though their Spirit-born self is 110% sinless; their Adam-born self isn't.

†. 1John 1:8-10 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

In other words; it's the believer's Spirit-born self that's in Christ and walks according to the Spirit; while the believer's Adam-born self is not in Christ; and therefore continues to walk according to the flesh. Fortunately this rather curious two-self arrangement is only temporary, and ends with the passing of the believer's Adam-born body; at which time the supernatural circumcision about which Paul wrote at Col 2:11 will really be appreciated.

Buen Camino
/

Yes Sir! preach it Brother. Most Christians have no Idea of the New Creature in Christ. They are never taught it. They assume that the flesh(Adam) needs to be cleaned up and all the while they are never feeding that born again new creature that CANNOT sin.

And a student of the word should KNOW not to use The KJV of Rom 8:1. It is incorrect.

Rom 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. PERIOD

 

[JLB]

Now when grace is removed

When grace is removed for whatever reason. Most people have no idea what the law of Moses is, nor do they care. They just backslide into a carnal sinful life until they are entangled in the world and are overcome.

I would say most who do that were once faithful church goers, heard the message of OSAS and just decided that having a little fun with some friends, one thing leads to another and slowly they sink back into a lifestyle that is given over to the flesh, and have no reason to fight and come back to God and repent because there were saved and can never lose their salvation.



22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

The antecedent of the pronouns "they" and "them" are identified beginning with 2Pet 2:9 as:

Thank you for your interpretation.

 

[CORE]

I would say most who do that were once faithful church goers, heard the message of OSAS and just decided that having a little fun with some friends, one thing leads to another and slowly they sink back into a lifestyle that is given over to the flesh, and have no reason to fight and come back to God and repent because there were saved and can never lose their salvation.

If one is living a sinful life and enjoying it without discipline from God, then I find it hard to believe they were ever saved in the first place...

I do understand your intent...I just think there are better ways to apply it if your intent is sincere.

 

[JLB]

I would say most who do that were once faithful church goers, heard the message of OSAS and just decided that having a little fun with some friends, one thing leads to another and slowly they sink back into a lifestyle that is given over to the flesh, and have no reason to fight and come back to God and repent because there were saved and can never lose their salvation.

If one is living a sinful life and enjoying it without discipline from God, then I find it hard to believe they were ever saved in the first place...

I do understand your intent...I just think there are better ways to apply it if your intent is sincere.

My intent is to show that people can turn away from Christ, without necessarily turning to the Law of Moses.


JLB

 

[CORE]

My intent is to show that people can turn away from Christ

No doubt, many false disciples have turned away from him...

We must examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith...we must be all the more diligent to make certain of our calling.

 

[JLB]

No doubt, many false disciples have turned away from him... We must examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith...we must be all the more diligent to make certain of our calling.

Yes and yes.

However I see that you use the term false disciples, as if they were never saved or converted or born again, in the first place.


JLB

 

[CORE]

No doubt, many false disciples have turned away from him... We must examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith...we must be all the more diligent to make certain of our calling.

Yes and yes.

However I see that you use the term false disciples, as if they were never saved or converted or born again, in the first place.

JLB

well ya...if you've turned away from Christ, you're obviously a false disciple...if you are damned to hell, then you obviously haven't been saved.

 

[JLB]

if you've turned away from Christ, you're obviously a false disciple

False as in never was true in the first place or became false when they fell away from grace.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21


JLB

 

[CORE]

if you've turned away from Christ, you're obviously a false disciple

False as in never was true in the first place or became false when they fell away from grace.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21


JLB

Knowledge is different than belief...

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

In the passages below; note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb. It's present tense rather than future; indicating that believers have eternal life right now-- no delay, and no waiting period.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life

†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life.

†. 1John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Since eternal life is a level of life that's impervious to death; then believers with eternal life are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14

Is there an end to eternity? No; eternity is infinite, it has no end. Therefore; since eternal life is an infinite level of life; then believers with eternal life are infinitely impervious to the wages of sin; and since eternal life has no end; then "enduring to the end" is a non issue for believers with eternal life; which is why it is no big deal for the Lord to say about believers in John 5:24 "they will never be condemned for their sins".

Webster's defines "never" as not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not under any condition.

Believers with eternal life have an enormous advantage over Christians without eternal life. In point of fact; according to God's testimony, as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to His own son; Christians without eternal life are without Christ; viz: they are quite christless.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . . And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; and whosoever does not have this life, does not have His son.

People who disbelieve it is essential to have eternal life in order to have Christ; openly insinuate that Jesus' father is a person of questionable integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth.

†. 1John 5:10 . . Anyone who does not believe God makes Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about His son.

Buen Camino
/

 

[George Muller]

Now when grace is removed

When grace is removed for whatever reason. Most people have no idea what the law of Moses is, nor do they care. They just backslide into a carnal sinful life until they are entangled in the world and are overcome.

I would say most who do that were once faithful church goers, heard the message of OSAS and just decided that having a little fun with some friends, one thing leads to another and slowly they sink back into a lifestyle that is given over to the flesh, and have no reason to fight and come back to God and repent because there were saved and can never lose their salvation.



22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14


JLB

No those who reject grace are in "willing" sin, free-will. The warnings in the book of Hebrews are to those "Hebrews" who are turning back to the law of Moses-Ten Commandments-etc... The "unbelief" is seeking to be justified by the law "for the law is not of faith" And who has not heard the Ten Commandments? And again all those who look to the law are in the flesh, this is evident.