John 15:2-6 proves damnation can follow salvation

[JLB]

Rom 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. PERIOD

That is not what the word says, though.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

and again -

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.


13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


You surely are made alive by The Spirit, and are free from the law of sin and death.

But if you continually sow unto the flesh, and live according to the flesh and present yourself as a slave of sin, and become entangled again in the pollutions of the world. this lifestyle leads to death.



JLB

 

[CORE]

Rom 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. PERIOD

That is not what the word says, though.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

and again -

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.


13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


You surely are made alive by The Spirit, and are free from the law of sin and death.

But if you continually sow unto the flesh, and live according to the flesh and present yourself as a slave of sin, and become entangled again in the pollutions of the world. this lifestyle leads to death.



JLB

You conveniently skipped this part for some reason:

Romans 8:8-11
"Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."

 

[JLB]

Rom 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. PERIOD

That is not what the word says, though.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

and again -

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.


13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


You surely are made alive by The Spirit, and are free from the law of sin and death.

But if you continually sow unto the flesh, and live according to the flesh and present yourself as a slave of sin, and become entangled again in the pollutions of the world. this lifestyle leads to death.



JLB

You conveniently skipped this part for some reason:

Romans 8:8-11
"Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."

Verse 13 sums it -

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

If by the Spirit you yourself put to death the deeds of the body...

I addressed it and summed it up in verse 13.

Verse 13 shows the responsibility of the believer to actively participate in the walk of the Spirit.

You conveniently did not address what I posted.


JLB

 

[CORE]

You conveniently did not address what I posted.

There is nothing to address...I like those verses. It's obvious that he's referring to a non-believer that lives according to the flesh:

Romans 8:8-9
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

 

[Webers_Home]

I'm going to deliberately, brazenly, and shamefully misquote Paul's statement below in order to bring out an important point. Watch for the revision.

†. Rom 8:13 . . If you live according to the flesh you will go to hell; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will go to heaven.

Now before proceeding any further, I should point out that Rom 8:13 was written to the same body of believers to whom Paul also wrote the previous seven chapters wherein he laboriously, exhaustively, and tirelessly explained that it is impossible to escape the wrath of God by means of piety and/or good behavior. If a Bible student hasn't got that much nailed down by the time they get to the 8th chapter; then they have no business in it because there's a lot of cryptic stuff hidden in there.

†. 2Pet 3:15-16 . . Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Anyway, Rom 8:13 can't be properly explained unless it's included with other of Paul's statements:

†. Rom 8:9-13 . .You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors -- not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

According to 1John 5:9-13 Christians without eternal life do not have God's son. So then; since Rom 8:9-13 is restricted to believers within whom the Sprit of Christ dwells; then none of it applies to Christians without eternal life-- none of it.

Another point I must emphasize is that according to the grammatical tense of John 3:36, John 6:47, John 5:24, and 1John 5:13 believers have eternal life right now-- no delay and no waiting period. And since eternal life is a level of life that's impervious to death; then believers with eternal life are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Since believers with eternal life are impervious to the wages of sin; then Jesus was totally justified in saying that believers with eternal life will never be condemned for their sins (John 5:24) and justified in saying they will never perish. (John 10:28)

Webster's defines "never" as not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not under any condition.

So then, since Rom 8:9-13 isn't talking about heaven and hell; then what might Paul actually be talking about? Well; the key to that passage is located right in the middle of it:

†. Rom 8:11 . . If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Paul's statement is commonly-- and erroneously --interpreted as referring to the resurrection; but no; it doesn't because that verse is talking about His Spirit giving life to a believer's mortal body rather than their spiritual body; viz: Paul's statement pertains to the here and now while believers live out their earthly existence. In other words: the "life" that Paul spoke of in Rom 8:11 is the fruit of the Spirit that he wrote about at Gal 5:22-23, which he parsed as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

It's possible to imitate the fruit of the Spirit; but impossible to duplicate because the fruit's custodian is the Spirit of Him who raised up Jesus; and He only produces that fruit for believers in whom dwells the Spirit of Christ. So guess what. Christians without eternal life are excluded from the fruit because according to 1John 5:9-13 Christians without eternal life lack God's son; viz: they lack the Spirit of Christ; upon whom the application of Rom 8:9-13 depends.

Buen Camino
/

 

[JLB]

You conveniently did not address what I posted.

There is nothing to address...I like those verses. It's obvious that he's referring to a non-believer that lives according to the flesh:

Romans 8:8-9
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

An unbeliever does not have the ability to put to death the deeds of the body, this is written to believers who have the Spirit.

If by the Spirit... This is an action of someone who has the Spirit.

Paul is not writing to unbelievers, they are lost.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Now before proceeding any further, I should point out that Rom 8:13 was written to the same body of believers to whom Paul also wrote the previous seven chapters wherein he laboriously, exhaustively, and tirelessly explained that it is impossible to escape the wrath of God by means of piety and/or good behavior. If a Bible student hasn't got that much nailed down by the time they get to the 8th chapter; then they have no business in it because there's a lot of cryptic stuff hidden in there.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13

... do not let sin reign in your mortal body. -

This is an admonition to the believer, for the believer to choose the action of obeying this command. This is not something automatic, but requires the will and effort of the believer.

... do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. -

This is an admonition to the believer, for the believer to choose the action of obeying this command. This is not something automatic, but requires the will and effort of the believer.


13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

This is written to believers who have the Spirit. The believer is called to actively participate in putting to death the deeds of the body by the action of sowing to the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit.

This is not automatic, but requires the will and effort of the believer.



JLB

 

[Webers_Home]

This is not automatic, but requires the will and effort of the believer.

There are two kinds of "believers" --those with eternal life; and those without eternal life. Which are you?

The reason I ask is because according to God's testimony, as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to His own son; Christians without eternal life are without Christ; viz: they are quite christless.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . . And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; and whosoever does not have this life, does not have His son.

Christians without Christ are not Jesus' sheep.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Buen Camino
/

 

[JLB]

This is not automatic, but requires the will and effort of the believer.

There are two kinds of "believers" --those with eternal life; and those without eternal life. Which are you?

The reason I ask is because according to God's testimony, as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to His own son; Christians without eternal life are without Christ; viz: they are quite christless.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . . And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; and whosoever does not have this life, does not have His son.

Christians without Christ are not Jesus' sheep.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Buen Camino
/

There are 4 kinds of "believers" according to the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Which one are you.

18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.


20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.


22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.



23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."


Each one of these 4 different types of people all "believed" yet DID NOT PRODUCE FRUIT.


JLB

 

[Webers_Home]

DID NOT PRODUCE FRUIT.

See post #65 in regards to bearing fruit.

BTW: I would like you to answer my question: Are you a believer with eternal life; or a believer without eternal life?

Buen Camino
/

 

[JLB]

DID NOT PRODUCE FRUIT.

See post #65 in regards to bearing fruit.

BTW: I would like you to answer my question: Are you a believer with eternal life; or a believer without eternal life?

Buen Camino
/

Show me the phrase in the scriptures that says "believer with eternal life".

The end of your faith is the salvation of your soul, not the beginning.

I am a believer with the "first fruits of the Spirit'

The finality of my salvation will occur at the resurrection of the dead.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You conveniently did not address what I posted.

There is nothing to address...I like those verses. It's obvious that he's referring to a non-believer that lives according to the flesh:

Romans 8:8-9
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

You think verse 13 refers to unbelievers?

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

This is written to a believer who has the Spirit.


JLB

 

[Webers_Home]

Show me the phrase in the scriptures that says "believer with eternal life".

See post #59


Buen Camino
/

 

[CORE]

This is written to a believer who has the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 - "You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.


Let me remind you that if anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know...

None of what you posted leads me to believe, nor does it prove that any of these people truly believed in the first place.

It wasn't until I read 2 peter 2:1 while reading the context of the chapter for myself that i saw a possible connection to support your argument - a verse that you haven't even mentioned:
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."

As I said, I look forward to studying this in depth...but in the mean time, the Spirit has already confirmed that Christ shed his blood for all...even false teachers that never truly believed in their heart.

Why haven't you pounded 2 peter 2:1 down everyone's throat, since it "appears" to give more "credibility" to your argument than what you've posted so far?

 

[JLB]

Show me the phrase in the scriptures that says "believer with eternal life".

See post #59


Buen Camino
/

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:12

At this moment of this post I am a believer with eternal life.

If I continue in this state faithfully to the end, and not depart from the living through the deceitfulness of sin that causes me to become harden in unbelief, then I will receive the end of my faith, the salvation of my soul.

9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9


JLB

 

[CORE]

If I continue in this state faithfully to the end, and not depart from the living through the deceitfulness of sin that causes me to become harden in unbelief, then I will receive the end of my faith, the salvation of my soul.

Sounds more like being saved by works through fear rather than by grace through faith...but maybe not - just sayin'

 

[George Muller]

If I continue in this state faithfully to the end, and not depart from the living through the deceitfulness of sin that causes me to become harden in unbelief, then I will receive the end of my faith, the salvation of my soul.

Sounds more like being saved by works through fear rather than by grace through faith...but maybe not - just sayin'

Of course this warning in the book of Hebrews was made to "Hebrews" who where in danger of returning to the law to be justified. So to "continue" is to remain in the "spirit of grace" and the "willful" sin of Hebrews 10 is not made to those under grace but to those who are turning from grace. So those who pick selected scriptures from the book of Hebrews, out of context and attempt to promote a "spirit of bondage again to fear" are the very ones to whom these warnings are being made. God catches them in unrighteousness of their own heart, they are in fact bringing judgment against themselves.
The context of the passage proves that the warning is against the "sin" of unbelief "THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH"
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

The whole book is a warning against "legalism" not those who trust in grace.

 

[JLB]

Sounds more like being saved by works through fear rather than by grace through faith...but maybe not - just sayin'

Edited

Yes, the works of righteousness and the fear of God.

Faith without works is dead..

You are saved by grace through faith.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

that you believe in Him...

That word believe carries a meaning that is more than just a mental affirmation that "there is a God" or that God exists.

Let's look at an example.

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:22-23

Abraham believed God carries a meaning of trust as well as obedience.

Abraham trusted God therefore he obeyed God.

1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." 4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. Genesis 12:1-4

When God spoke to Abraham, at that moment faith was imparted to him to accomplish the thing God desired Abraham to do.

However, if Abraham doesn't actually perform and do what God says, there will be no great nation, there will be no great name, there will be no blessing, and there will be no Messiah.

So, the work of Abraham was to believe, by validating that he believed, he obeyed.

Look at this scripture as to how the word disobey and unbelief are the same exact word in the Greek.

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Believing is obeying. If you don't believe, you won't obey.

Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, and you don't do what I say.

This is the work of God, that you believe...


JLB

 

[Webers_Home]

.

I am a believer with eternal life.

Have you known all along that you were a believer with eternal life; or did you just now find out by reading post #59

At this moment . . . If I continue in this state faithfully to the end, and not depart from the living through the deceitfulness of sin that causes me to become harden in unbelief, then I will receive the end of my faith, the salvation of my soul.

I don't think you quite understand the nature of eternal life. It's an infinite kind of life that's impervious to time, decay, death, and the aging process. Since that's the case, then believers with eternal life are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.

There's a saying in the blue collar world that goes like this: Start Right/Finish Right, Start Wrong/Finish Wrong. In other words; when people base their understanding of difficult passages in the Bible upon a false premise; then their interpretation will be false-- every time; without exception. You have assumed that eternal life is not all that different than human life, and therefore concluded that it's possible to lose eternal life by means of unfaithfulness. But don't you see? Believers are given eternal life primarily as a safeguard against that very thing.

Jesus said: "They will never be condemned for their sins" (John 5:24) and "they will never perish" (John 10:28).

It's crucial to your own personal peace of mind that you take Jesus at his word, and believe he means what he says. It's also crucial to your level of respect for Christ because failure to take him at his word, and believe he means what he says, is tantamount to insinuating that Christ is a dishonest leader of questionable integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth; viz: just another cheap politician, so to speak.

Something else you've been failing to factor into your thinking is the Spirit birth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8. That birth produces a new, divine-like self within believers that is not only 110% sinless; but also 110% incapable of sin.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

So you see; there's simply no need for Spirit-born believers to be concerned about enduring to the end. Those who do are (inadvertently I hope) casting a vote of no-confidence in the Spirit's ability to produce a chip off the olde block.

Buen Camino
/

 

[JLB]

So you see; there's simply no need for Spirit-born believers to be concerned about enduring to the end.

The Gospel of Presumption!


JLB