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John 17:14

shad

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John 17:14
"I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world."

Jesus is saying that His followers should not get involved with world affairs including politics.
This goes along with "let the dead bury their own dead" Matt 8:22.
 
Because Christ's true sheep are a very small remnant, known by their holiness and obedience to Him, the world finds them repulsive. Understanding God's will and purpose for their lives, as set forth in His Word, they will naturally withdraw themselves from worldly institutions and affairs. They will have no fellowship or camaraderie with darkness (Eph.5:11) nor compromise their spiritual walk in any way for the world... and the world will hate them for it:

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you"
-John 15:18-19
 
AnnieHere said:
Because Christ's true sheep are a very small remnant, known by their holiness and obedience to Him, the world finds them repulsive. Understanding God's will and purpose for their lives, as set forth in His Word, they will naturally withdraw themselves from worldly institutions and affairs. They will have no fellowship or camaraderie with darkness (Eph.5:11) nor compromise their spiritual walk in any way for the world... and the world will hate them for it:

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you"
-John 15:18-19

thank you, Annie for more scriptural support.

Unfortunately many of the churches are not taking heed about this warning. The most churches are supporting the military, and the military is politics. The military is involved with a lot of sins. We are supposed to be salt and light of the of the world. By killing our enemy, we are breaking God's law a big time. The military is worldly institution. We should not be doing the same thing as the world does.

Moderator: I started the similar thread but somehow we got derailed a big time, and got locked without discussing the subject. Please let us finish. I will not respond to off topic post. Thank you.
 
shad said:
thank you, Annie for more scriptural support.

Unfortunately many of the churches are not taking heed about this warning. The most churches are supporting the military, and the military is politics. The military is involved with a lot of sins. We are supposed to be salt and light of the of the world. By killing our enemy, we are breaking God's law a big time. The military is worldly institution. We should not be doing the same thing as the world does.

shad, the churches support and promote worldly institutions because they ARE one. Most all maintain a 501C3 tax exempt status with the federal government, which effectively makes the state the head of their church, and not Christ.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/501-church.html
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=501c3


As a matter of fact, the Roman Catholic Church is the wealthiest institutions on earth.
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/153/153_10.asp

Here is a quote from Avro Manhattan in his The Vatican Billions (1983), pp. 183-184, 191, 216, 220:

"The most important order, however, as a true religious order, in terms of importance and of influence, is that of the Jesuits. The Society is paramount in the educational and in the financial fields. . . .

"Even more telling is the fact that fifty years ago, they furnished A. P. Gianni, an Italian promoter, with half or the starting capital for the Bank of America. Today, the Jesuits still own 51 per cent of the stock. . . .

"The pugnacious Jesuits, about 8,000 in the U.S. alone, out of 35,000 in the Order, by 1983-4 had increased their income to between 300 to 350 million dollars, and were the controllers, even if tangently, of the largest bank in the world, the Bank of America. . . .

"Sindona had his first studies with the Jesuits, then at Messina's University where he became one of its youngest lawyers. . . . By now, Sindona was acting, not only for the Vatican, but also tangently for the no less powerful concerns, enjoying by now, the confidence of a growing number of American business companies, beginning with the Jesuit controlled Bank of America, the Celanese Corporation and other big U.S. bodies."

The Jesuit rule of the Bank of America is undeniable. The Bank is a member of Cardinal Egan's CFR in New York. Thus, even though you have only one reference to the fact that the Order's front man in the founding of the Bank of America, Italian Roman Catholic Amadeo Peter Giannini, was a Knight of Malta, that will be sufficient.

http://moversandshakersofthesmom.blogspot.com/

wolfsheep_sm.gif
 
AnnieHere said:
shad, the churches support and promote worldly institutions because they ARE one. Most all maintain a 501C3 tax exempt status with the federal government, which effectively makes the state the head of their church, and not Christ.

I agree.

As a matter of fact, the Roman Catholic Church is the wealthiest institutions on earth.
How can they be wealthy? They have to pay for all those priests.

The churches both catholics and protestants are more and more getting involved with politics and cooperating with the government.
 
The churches both catholics and protestants are more and more getting involved with politics
and cooperating with the government.

Very true.

The RCC is the MOTHER CHURCH of all her whore daughters. This is a description of the churches in these last days:


"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

-Revelation 17:1-7


BABYLION-McCainObama.jpg
obama_vatican.jpg
BABYLON-EganJiuliani.jpg

purpleandscarlet.jpg
 
I am glad to see that some have seen, what I have been saying for years. That our citizenship is in Heaven, and not of this Earth, and we should not be involved in its affairs. Other than taking the Gospel to the lost, and obeying our Lords command, to love others as he has loved us. Which means that we should not wish any harm, nor do any harm to others, but to love them.
Believe me I get a lot of patriotic flack, and curses because I preach this. But as Paul said, am I now your enemy! because I have told you the truth?.

I also disdain American flags flying from Church pulpits, and draped across their front entrances. The first thing I see, is this is another Church of the Laodiceans.

Now for any that haven't you might want to go read Psalms 1, there is a good message in that one as well.
 
samuel said:
I am glad to see that some have seen, what I have been saying for years. That our citizenship is in Heaven, and not of this Earth, and we should not be involved in its affairs. Other than taking the Gospel to the lost, and obeying our Lords command, to love others as he has loved us. Which means that we should not wish any harm, nor do any harm to others, but to love them.
Believe me I get a lot of patriotic flack, and curses because I preach this. But as Paul said, am I now your enemy! because I have told you the truth?.

I also disdain American flags flying from Church pulpits, and draped across their front entrances. The first thing I see, is this is another Church of the Laodiceans.

Now for any that haven't you might want to go read Psalms 1, there is a good message in that one as well.

So true :shame , Jesus says if we love this world we have no part in His kingdom. Jesus' followers' are citizens of His kingdom, not in this world.
 
AnnieHere said:
The churches both catholics and protestants are more and more getting involved with politics
and cooperating with the government.

Very true.

The RCC is the MOTHER CHURCH of all her whore daughters. This is a description of the churches in these last days:


"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

-Revelation 17:1-7


BABYLION-McCainObama.jpg
obama_vatican.jpg
BABYLON-EganJiuliani.jpg

purpleandscarlet.jpg

Those pics are excellent evidence of our claim. :(
 
shad said:
John 17:14
"I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world."

Jesus is saying that His followers should not get involved with world affairs including politics.
This goes along with "let the dead bury their own dead" Matt 8:22.
I do not think you are right here.

Jesus is a King, a reigning King. And a king is definitely a political figure. Paul understood this and used the word "gospel" to announce Jesus' kingship. How was the word "gospel" sometimes used in Paul's world? It was used to announce the ascendency of a new emperor to the throne in Rome:

The following text comes from an inscription dated to 9 BCE: quoted from U. Becker, ‘Gospel, Evangelize, Evangelist’, NIDNTT, II, p.108.:

The providence which has ordered the whole of our life, showing concern and zeal, has ordained the most perfect consummation for human life by giving to it Augustus, by filling him with virtue for doing the work of a benefactor among men, and by sending in him, as it were, a saviour for us and those who come after us, to make war to cease, to create order everywhere. . . ; the birthday of the god[Augustus] was the beginning for the world of the glad tidings that have come to men through him.

Here the word "gospel" is the greek word "evangelion" - the same word Paul uses in relation to Jesus.

And there are other reasons to understand that Paul say Jesus as a "political" king. I will address those in a subsequent post.
 
samuel said:
I am glad to see that some have seen, what I have been saying for years. That our citizenship is in Heaven, and not of this Earth, and we should not be involved in its affairs. Other than taking the Gospel to the lost,....
The irony is that "the gospel" is not the good news that you can be saved by believing in Jesus, although that is indeed true. As has been already shown in other threads, "the gospel" is basically the news that Jesus is the Davidic Messiah and has constituted as Lord of all, including the political institutions of this world, by virtue of being raised for the dead.

The church is charged with the responsibility of implementing this kingship and so we are indeed called to "get involved in the affairs" of this present world.
 
More reasons to understand that the Christian is actually called to engage the political sphere and implement Jesus' authority in that very sphere:

The term “gospel†or “evangelion†is widely accepted to denote the good news that people can be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. However, this is not really how Paul used the term. In fact, Paul, drawing on the meaning of the term in his time and culture, uses the term to essentially denote the proclamation that Jesus is the Davidic Messiah, and His resurrection from the dead constitutes Him as the Lord of all the Universe. This is not to deny that we can indeed be saved by faith. But this not what the term “gospel†actually meant to Paul.

Paul had two sources that informed his use of the term “gospelâ€Â. One of these was the Jewish usage, the other the secular usage. In this post, I concentrate on the Jewish use.

The Jewish usage of the relevant root of “evangelion†has at the least the following two informing sources:

You who bring good tidings to Zion,
go up on a high mountain.
You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem,
lift up your voice with a shout,
lift it up, do not be afraid;
say to the towns of Judah,
"Here is your God!" Isaiah 40:9

How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
"Your God reigns!" Isaiah 52:7


Without the appropriate knowledge of the Old Testament context and Messianic expectations in which Paul was steeped, it is easy to buy into the simplistic argument that the term “gospel†simply denotes the good news about how individuals get saved. But for Paul, it was a much more particular matter than that.

Paul was deeply immersed in the Jewish expectation that YHWH would return to Zion to be enthroned and that Israel would experience a return from her exile. While, at the time of Paul, the Jews were indeed physically back in Israel, they were, for all practical purposes still in exile (they were under the domination of the pagan Romans).

The writings from Qumran endorse this view, making frequent references to the notion of the Isaianic herald as embodied in the two texts above. So Paul lived and breathed in a culture that was aching for the “good news†expressed in these prophecies from Isaiah.

Within this framework of expectation, Paul’s startling realization was that the resurrection of Jesus constituted both the return of YHWH to Zion and the return of Israel from exile. Paul understood Jesus to have borne Israel’s destiny and the resurrection of Jesus from the “exile of death†is discerned by Paul as entailing the true meaning of the covenant promise of return from exile.

So when Paul uses the term “gospel†he is giving flesh and bones to the “good tidings†in the Isaianic texts about a God who would return to Zion and who would deliver Israel from exile. He is emphasizing the Messiahship of Jesus and His enthronement as King, seeing His resurrection from the dead as endorsing this. Thus when Paul proclaims his “gospel†in Romans 1:2-4, the issue of “how you get saved†is characterized as a result of the gospel, not its substantive content, which is instead centred on Jesus’ Messiahship (hence the reference to being of the line of David) and his lordship:

2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus is a reigning and the church has the responsibility to implement his kingship.
 
Drew said:
I do not think you are right here.

Jesus is a King, a reigning King. And a king is definitely a political figure.

You are wrong, Jesus is king of heavenly kingdom, not of this world. God gave satan authority to control this world. That's why this world is such a disaster. Jesus is Prince of peace. Do you see any peace in this world?

Paul understood this and used the word "gospel" to announce Jesus' kingship. How was the word "gospel" sometimes used in Paul's world? It was used to announce the ascendency of a new emperor to the throne in Rome:

Gospel means "good news"; good news of peaceful and perfect kingdom governed by God.
 
Just to clarify, when I say that Jesus is a king and that we are to engage the political domain, this does not mean that we are do things like hang American (or Canadian) flags in church. Quite the opposite - the kingship of Jesus greatly relativizes these "temporary" national kingdoms.

I think that patriotism is "the great distraction", diverting our allegiance from the one King of the entire world and getting us tangled up in the horrible mess of tribalism. I am no fan of patriotism, please trust me on this.
 
shad said:
You are wrong, Jesus is king of heavenly kingdom, not of this world. God gave satan authority to control this world. That's why this world is such a disaster. Jesus is Prince of peace. Do you see any peace in this world?
You are not engaging my actual arguments - you need to do this to establish your position. Please tell us where God ever establishes Satan as king of this world.

Remember Jesus' words before his ascension - "[all authority on heaven and on earth has been given to me". You are saying otherwise when you limit his kingship to "heaven". Jesus clearly includes "the earth" as part of his Kingdom.

shad said:
Gospel means "good news"; good news of peaceful and perfect kingdom governed by God.
Not quite. The word "gospel" is used in the Old Testament, as has been shown in my recent post, to mean something much more specific - the return of Jehovah to Zion and the establishment of God as King. No Jew would misread this as a reference to a kingship of some mysterious "spiritual" domain.

And, as my post also shows, Romans 1 is quite explicit: the gospel of Jesus is the announcement that He is the Davidic Messiah, constituted as lord of the universe, in virtue of being raised from the dead.

Paul always uses the word "gospel" in this more narrow sense. There are other proof-texts for this.

And let's be clear: I have given actual historical evidence showing how the word was indeed sometimes used in the sense that I am claiming. You cannot simply dismiss this with a blanket denial.
 
Drew's replies:

You are not engaging my actual arguments - you need to do this to establish your position. Please tell us where God ever establishes Satan as king of this world.

here they are:

John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

John 14:30
I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,

John 16:11
and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.




Remember Jesus' words before his ascension - "[all authority on heaven and on earth has been given to me". You are saying otherwise when you limit his kingship to "heaven". Jesus clearly includes "the earth" as part of his Kingdom.

Of course, Jesus will reign this earth when the time comes. It is not His time yet, until then satan is in charge of this world.


Gospel means "good news"; good news of peaceful and perfect kingdom governed by God.

Not quite. The word "gospel" is used in the Old Testament, as has been shown in my recent post, to mean something much more specific - the return of Jehovah to Zion and the establishment of God as King. No Jew would misread this as a reference to a kingship of some mysterious "spiritual" domain.

Which verse?

And, as my post also shows, Romans 1 is quite explicit: the gospel of Jesus is the announcement that He is the Davidic Messiah, constituted as lord of the universe, in virtue of being raised from the dead.

So? Jesus will not reign until His time comes.

Paul always uses the word "gospel" in this more narrow sense. There are other proof-texts for this.

such as?

And let's be clear: I have given actual historical evidence showing how the word was indeed sometimes used in the sense that I am claiming. You cannot simply dismiss this with a blanket denial.

We don't need historical evidence, we need Bible evidence.
 
shad said:
John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
This certainly does not establish Satan as lord of this world - in fact it suggests the exact opposite. Well what does Jesus say about satan - he will shortly be driven out. Why would you post a text that clearly announces the toppling of Satan's rulership to support the notion that he is still enthroned?

shad said:
[John 14:30
I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,
This text needs to be understood in context. In John 12, Jesus has said something that clearly suggests that Satan is to lose his "rulership". Here in 14:30, I submit that Jesus is referring to the fact that Satan is about to be lured "into the flesh" of Jesus on the cross, where his power will be broken (Roman 8:3). There is a raft of arguments to support this which I will not give in this post.

The point being that the "coming of the prince of this world" need not be read as a statement of Satan's enthronement, but rather that he (Satan) is going to be "present at the cross to a take serious butt-whoopin". That is what I believe is going on.

There are so many texts that clearly have Jesus as an enthroned king to read this particular text as suggesting otherwise.
shad said:
John 16:11
and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
Fine - he stands condemned. How does this support the assertion that he is an enthroned king. if anything, this statement suggests that Satan's time as ruler is about to end.
 
shad said:
Drew said:
Remember Jesus' words before his ascension - "[all authority on heaven and on earth has been given to me". You are saying otherwise when you limit his kingship to "heaven". Jesus clearly includes "the earth" as part of his Kingdom.

Of course, Jesus will reign this earth when the time comes. It is not His time yet, until then satan is in charge of this world.
You are bending what Jesus has said into something other than what He said. That is a sign that something is amiss in the exegesis. Does Jesus say that "authority on earth will be given to me". No he does not:

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me

This is how people are led astray - they represent the writer of scripture as having said something slightly differenct from what he actually says. Here Jesus is clear - the authority on earth has already been given to Him.

In fact, this text alone makes entire case that Jesus is presently the supreme Lord of this world.
 
shad said:
Gospel means "good news"; good news of peaceful and perfect kingdom governed by God.
The word "gospel" and its greek and hebrew variants are used in a very specific sense as I have already shown in an earlier post. Obviously, the word "gospel" in and of itself means "good news" in a general sense. But there is a demonstrated scriptural precedent - see my earlier post - for its use in a very specific sense. And that sense is one in which the "good news" is specifically the good news about God' return to Zion and his enthronement.

You are expecting the readers to believe that Paul either does not know this (not likely) and is accidentally confusing the reader or, worse, that Paul knows full well what the term means and is being deliberately misleading.

Paul knows how the word "gospel" was used by the prophets - he knows the Scriptures inside out. So when he uses the term "gospel", he is eliciting these Old Testament references. Paul does this a lot - it is no co-incidece.
 
shad said:
Drew said:
Not quite. The word "gospel" is used in the Old Testament, as has been shown in my recent post, to mean something much more specific - the return of Jehovah to Zion and the establishment of God as King. No Jew would misread this as a reference to a kingship of some mysterious "spiritual" domain.
Which verse?
I already wrote a detailed post on this. Here are some verses that show the same word (as per the Greek rendering of the Old Testament) "evangelion" that Paul used is used to announce the return of God to Zion and his enthronement.

You who bring good tidings to Zion,
go up on a high mountain.
You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem,
lift up your voice with a shout,
lift it up, do not be afraid;
say to the towns of Judah,
"Here is your God!" Isaiah 40:9

How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
"Your God reigns!" Isaiah 52:7
 
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