TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[LeviR]

What Paul tells the brethren in 1 Cor 15 is the exact same thing Jesus said to Nicodemus.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

It would only seem reasonable that if God so loved the world to give His son for them, that they ought to love Him in return.

Reformed Theology puts a great deal of emphasis on the doctrine of regeneration. In fact, no one could be considered a Christian unless they are born again.
I agree. Jesus said it.

The funny thing about the Reformed doctrine however, is it relies on the assumption that everyone is born spiritually dead.
A term that can be found nowhere in scripture.

That’s a funny thing.

LeviR Take a look at this passage, Ephesians 2:1-6:
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Before we were saved, we were the "walking dead," that is, dead to God (verses 1 and 5) until God "raised us from the dead" (the new birth) to give us Jesus' new, risen life.

 

[electedbyHim]

Death: NT
KJV Translation Count — Total: 119x

Dead: NT
KJV Translation Count — Total: 132x

Just out of curiosity, how many of those verses in the NT do you add the words “spiritually” and “spiritual” before the words “death” and “dead”?

I could ask the same question where the word “life” is used.
How many of those verses do you add the same words to.

Just out of curiosity, how many of those verses in the NT do you add the words “spiritually” and “spiritual” before the words “death” and “dead”?

Depends on the verse.

Siritually dead
Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat from it; for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” (Spiritual and physical death)

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all also formerly conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Colossians 2:13 And you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him, having graciously forgiven us all our transgressions.

 

[Whatever]

Second, “born of Spirit is spirit”.

You are mixing everything up. Born of the Spirit is the same thing as being born again.

I don't think Baptism is being spoken of. If somebody confesses Christ and goes to be baptized, but falls and breaks his neck before that, does he go to Hell?

Remember Jesus chides Nicodemus for being a teacher of Israel and "not knowing these things." I think Jesus is speaking metaphorically about things said in the OT.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

Psalm 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Numbers 19:17 'And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel. 18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the tent, on all the vessels, on the persons who were there, or on the one who touched a bone, the slain, the dead, or a grave.

I don't think Jesus is giving us another ritual to follow.

 

[LeviR]

You are mixing everything up. Born of the Spirit is the same thing as being born again.

I don't think Baptism is being spoken of. If somebody confesses Christ and goes to be baptized, but falls and breaks his neck before that, does he go to Hell?

Remember Jesus chides Nicodemus for being a teacher of Israel and "not knowing these things." I think Jesus is speaking metaphorically about things said in the OT.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

Psalm 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Numbers 19:17 'And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel. 18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the tent, on all the vessels, on the persons who were there, or on the one who touched a bone, the slain, the dead, or a grave.

I don't think Jesus is giving us another ritual to follow.

You are no longer flesh and blood?
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, Nicodemus.
You must be born of the Spirit and be spirit.
You must be raised from the dead with a spiritual body that is incorruptible and never dies.
Once you are born of spirit and are spirit, you are welcome into the kingdom of heaven. You are as the angels of God.
Like the wind, you cannot tell from where they come or where they go.

 

[LeviR]

Depends on the verse.

Siritually dead
Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat from it; for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” (Spiritual and physical death)

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all also formerly conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Colossians 2:13 And you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him, having graciously forgiven us all our transgressions.

It’s interesting that you have been raised from the dead already but yet you are still flesh and blood which cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
So, you don’t bleed.? Wow, that’s wonderful. Congratulations.

 

[electedbyHim]

It’s interesting that you have been raised from the dead already but yet you are still flesh and blood which cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
So, you don’t bleed.? Wow, that’s wonderful. Congratulations.

What does this even mean?

You are joking, right?

 

[Fastfredy0]

What does this even mean?

You are joking, right?

I think it means that truly born again Christians no longer have flesh for flesh a sign that you are not regenerated as only regenerated people go to heaven and only people without flesh can enter heaven.
Perhaps, if you got a potato peeler and peeled away your flesh you would be accepted in the kingdom of heaven. As they say at parties, leave you coat at the door. In this case you leave your "flesh" at the door.
All of this can be found in III Corinthians 66:6

 

[JLB]

I think it means that truly born again Christians no longer have flesh for flesh a sign that you are not regenerated as only regenerated people go to heaven and only people without flesh can enter heaven.
Perhaps, if you got a potato peeler and peeled away your flesh you would be accepted in the kingdom of heaven. As they say at parties, leave you coat at the door. In this case you leave your "flesh" at the door.
All of this can be found in III Corinthians 66:6

I think you mean Proverbs 32:1

 

[electedbyHim]

I think it means that truly born again Christians no longer have flesh for flesh a sign that you are not regenerated as only regenerated people go to heaven and only people without flesh can enter heaven.
Perhaps, if you got a potato peeler and peeled away your flesh you would be accepted in the kingdom of heaven. As they say at parties, leave you coat at the door. In this case you leave your "flesh" at the door.
All of this can be found in III Corinthians 66:6

That is funny.

 

[JLB]

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;


These look like the works of the Totally Depraved… But of course not utterly depraved.


No wait, Paul is speaking to Christians.

 

[LeviR]

What does this even mean?

You are joking, right?

As I said, what Jesus spoke about being born again is two separate events.
The first event is immersion in water. “Born of water”. This is the entrance into covenant with God for resurrection from the dead and to receive the promised inheritance which is the kingdom of God.
The second event of being born again, “born of the Spirit is spirit” refers to being raised from the dead with a material flesh body that never dies. This new nature is called by Paul “a spiritual body”. It is called by Jesus “spirit”, and by Peter “the divine nature”.
Now, since you believe you have already been born again, you must possess the spiritual body and divine nature already.the nature which never dies.
Therefore your flesh is no longer the flesh and blood nature which cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

So, my question to you was this:

Do you now have the divine nature of flesh which never dies?
Since the flesh and blood nature of mortal man CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God, you must have this new nature.
Do you?

 

[LeviR]

I think it means that truly born again Christians no longer have flesh for flesh a sign that you are not regenerated as only regenerated people go to heaven and only people without flesh can enter heaven.
Perhaps, if you got a potato peeler and peeled away your flesh you would be accepted in the kingdom of heaven. As they say at parties, leave you coat at the door. In this case you leave your "flesh" at the door.
All of this can be found in III Corinthians 66:6

Clueless.

 

[LeviR]

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;


These look like the works of the Totally Depraved… But of course not utterly depraved.


No wait, Paul is speaking to Christians.

Certainly he is speaking to Christians.
It is because they have only been born again by being baptized into Christ.
They are now “brethren” in covenant with God to inherit the kingdom of God. They are the Church.
Their previous sins had been forgiven when they were baptized into Christ for the remission of sins.
This is what Paul speaks of in Rom 6.

However, they are still flesh and blood mortal people. And flesh and blood mortals cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
They have only entered the race to the finish. And when they finish, they will be rewarded by the resurrection of life to a new physical flesh nature that can indeed enter and see the kingdom of God.

 

[LeviR]

JLB
If those who entered covenant with God for resurrection of the dead and inheritance in His kingdom continue to walk after their flesh they will be rejected and cast away from His kingdom being raised not as partakers of the resurrection of life and divine nature but partakers of the resurrection of condemnation whereby a second death awaits them.

 

[electedbyHim]

As I said, what Jesus spoke about being born again is two separate events.
The first event is immersion in water. “Born of water”. This is the entrance into covenant with God for resurrection from the dead and to receive the promised inheritance which is the kingdom of God.
The second event of being born again, “born of the Spirit is spirit” refers to being raised from the dead with a material flesh body that never dies. This new nature is called by Paul “a spiritual body”. It is called by Jesus “spirit”, and by Peter “the divine nature”.
Now, since you believe you have already been born again, you must possess the spiritual body and divine nature already.the nature which never dies.
Therefore your flesh is no longer the flesh and blood nature which cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

So, my question to you was this:

Do you now have the divine nature of flesh which never dies?
Since the flesh and blood nature of mortal man CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God, you must have this new nature.
Do you?

I am not sure where or how you got that from the Bible.

It is very confusing.

 

[LeviR]

I am not sure where or how you got that from the Bible.

It is very confusing.

Paul says that if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ is not raised. And if Christ is not raised, faith is worthless.
Without a resurrection of the dead any faith is worthless.
It is therefore most vital to understand the resurrection of the dead.
Paul explains it in 1Cor 15
The faithful who have died in Christ are raised from the dead with a physical body. Paul calls it a spiritual body.
Christ often said that he would “raise them up at the last day”. The day he returns.
The body they are raised with is a body that never dies. It is unlike the body we currently have in that it is not flesh of sin. It is without sin dwelling in it caused by temptation.
This is the body we must have in order to enter God’s kingdom.
When Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, he is referring to the mortal flesh we are all born with.
Our nature must be changed from the mortal flesh to immortal flesh. “When this mortal puts on immortality” then “death is swallowed up in victory”.

Now, Jesus declared the same thing to Nicodemus when he said that unless a man is born again he cannot see or enter God’s kingdom.

So, unless one is born of the Spirit and is spirit, he cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Jesus says the same thing as Paul.
We must be raised from the dead with a new physical nature in order to enter the kingdom.
Jesus calls it “spirit”, Paul calls it a “spiritual body” and Peter refers to it as “the divine nature”.

When a person dies they are put back into the earth they are made from. In order to live again they must experience the “resurrection of life”. Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life”. He is who raises the dead to life.

And the ones raised to never die again, enter God’s kingdom.
They are born of the Spirit and are spirit. Meaning they have a physical spiritual body.

 

[electedbyHim]

Paul says that if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ is not raised. And if Christ is not raised, faith is worthless.
Without a resurrection of the dead any faith is worthless.
It is therefore most vital to understand the resurrection of the dead.
Paul explains it in 1Cor 15
The faithful who have died in Christ are raised from the dead with a physical body. Paul calls it a spiritual body.
Christ often said that he would “raise them up at the last day”. The day he returns.
The body they are raised with is a body that never dies. It is unlike the body we currently have in that it is not flesh of sin. It is without sin dwelling in it caused by temptation.
This is the body we must have in order to enter God’s kingdom.
When Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, he is referring to the mortal flesh we are all born with.
Our nature must be changed from the mortal flesh to immortal flesh. “When this mortal puts on immortality” then “death is swallowed up in victory”.

Now, Jesus declared the same thing to Nicodemus when he said that unless a man is born again he cannot see or enter God’s kingdom.

So, unless one is born of the Spirit and is spirit, he cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Jesus says the same thing as Paul.
We must be raised from the dead with a new physical nature in order to enter the kingdom.
Jesus calls it “spirit”, Paul calls it a “spiritual body” and Peter refers to it as “the divine nature”.

When a person dies they are put back into the earth they are made from. In order to live again they must experience the “resurrection of life”. Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life”. He is who raises the dead to life.

And the ones raised to never die again, enter God’s kingdom.

But that is not what Jesus is teaching in John 3.

 

[LeviR]

But that is not what Jesus is teaching in John 3.

My introduction to Christianity was in Reformed Theology. I studied under it for several years.
Anyway, no matter what “form” you belong, it’s good to know what others have to say.

 

[Free]

Paul says that if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ is not raised. And if Christ is not raised, faith is worthless.
Without a resurrection of the dead any faith is worthless.
It is therefore most vital to understand the resurrection of the dead.
Paul explains it in 1Cor 15
The faithful who have died in Christ are raised from the dead with a physical body. Paul calls it a spiritual body.
Christ often said that he would “raise them up at the last day”. The day he returns.
The body they are raised with is a body that never dies. It is unlike the body we currently have in that it is not flesh of sin. It is without sin dwelling in it caused by temptation.
This is the body we must have in order to enter God’s kingdom.
When Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, he is referring to the mortal flesh we are all born with.
Our nature must be changed from the mortal flesh to immortal flesh. “When this mortal puts on immortality” then “death is swallowed up in victory”.

Now, Jesus declared the same thing to Nicodemus when he said that unless a man is born again he cannot see or enter God’s kingdom.

So, unless one is born of the Spirit and is spirit, he cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Jesus says the same thing as Paul.
We must be raised from the dead with a new physical nature in order to enter the kingdom.
Jesus calls it “spirit”, Paul calls it a “spiritual body” and Peter refers to it as “the divine nature”.

When a person dies they are put back into the earth they are made from. In order to live again they must experience the “resurrection of life”. Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life”. He is who raises the dead to life.

And the ones raised to never die again, enter God’s kingdom.
They are born of the Spirit and are spirit. Meaning they have a physical spiritual body.

In John 3 Jesus is not saying the same thing as Paul in 1 Cor. 15. Jesus is teaching about the need to be born again, that is, born of the Spirit of God, which is what happens when a person becomes a true believer and is justified. That happens now. Paul is clearly teaching of the resurrection.